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Back when there were more arguments about pick order, people were seriously telling me a 10-20 point difference in MMR is significant.
Much like the UI and support items and the Sion rework, I guarantee, once they stomp the dumb shit that pops up once the system is public, nobody but diehard grudge-holders will care.
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On November 04 2015 23:49 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 23:36 Seuss wrote:On November 04 2015 23:07 Fildun wrote:On November 04 2015 23:00 Seuss wrote:On November 04 2015 22:53 Volband wrote:On November 04 2015 22:51 Seuss wrote:On November 04 2015 22:30 Volband wrote:On November 04 2015 22:16 Caiada wrote:
So go play SC2. LoL's a team game.
I don't even have friends to play with because I'm an anxious misanthrope. And you know what? I don't give a shit about this change. And if the matchmaking works at 99% of people's level, I'm going to give even less of a shit about it.
Quality comment after 5 seasons of solo queue's existence without much complaint towards the basis of the system. Not to mention that the ladder gives you rank for your SOLO performance in this team game. Jesus, we are reaching /r/leagueoflegends level now. You may feel that the system works, but Riot has clearly stated they have data and research that shows the experience could be improved not just for players already playing ranked, but for those who have stayed away because they don't want to/hate playing solo. I'm all for Riot trying to improve LoL, even if they sometimes miss the mark. While there will almost certainly be bumps along the road, I don't think this will be one of those misses. Bottom line is that they are introducing a new feature while completely erasing an old one. They create new fun experiences while shitting on old fun experiences. Just seperate them for God's sake and everyone's happy. Bottom line is they're improving the old feature, and taking measures to address the problems you're complaining about. Riot is trying to preserve your fun experience while enabling new fun for everyone involved. There will probably be a few problems initially, but I think it's an achievable goal. They aren't improving the old feature, they're replacing the old feature with a new feature and you can't just say it's an improvement, especially if you state it like a fact like you just did. You aren't the authority who decides whether something is an improvement or not. Probably for most people under Diamond 4 or so it won't matter, but above that it will significantly affect both the accuracy of the rating system and the queue times. It's just my emphatically stated opinion. I'd be less matter of fact about it if there was less doom and gloom. The whole "new feature vs improvement/change" thing is part of what makes most of what's been posted a noisy, empty debate. It's a red herring that honestly has nothing to do with anything except the battle lines people have drawn. What really matters are the concerns people have, Riot's awareness of those concerns, and Riot's ability/plan to address them. I think it's clear Riot is aware of and will address people's concerns. It seems that you and others either don't think Riot is aware of your concerns, or don't think Riot is capable of addressing them. That's fine, and we can disagree. The way I see it they haven't said or done anything to preserve the integrity of the ranking system when this change goes through. This either means they either 1) didn't think about it, 2) don't care about it or 3) can't fix it. These options all don't seem very good to me.
On November 05 2015 00:19 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2015 00:17 Osmoses wrote:
Why are you talking about this like it was a presidential election pertaining to the fate of the world or something? Calm down, it's just the matchmaking system of an online videogame.
Personally I always soloq, never duo. And I have no problems with any of this. I have no idea what you're even upset about. They're gonna weigh your report heavier if you're a solo among premades. They're gonna match teams of similar setups with each other. If you wanted to chat people up and be social then why are you even soloqing? In short, the hell are you mad about anyway? Personally I'm not satisfied because these changes will make it so that your MMR will be even less an indication of your skill than before.
They haven't really talked much about the MMR side of things as far as I've seen. It's possible that Riot hasn't because most of the negative feedback consists of gut reactions/surface-level complaints, but I can't begrudge you for being very concerned about that aspect of the system. It's the part that's most likely to have issues.
I have some faith that those issues will be temporary, but that doesn't change the fact that some people will have negative experiences in the meantime.
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United States15536 Posts
Please start discussing this with seriousness and civility. Sarcastic drivel, useless complaining, and the refusal to respect an opinion other than your own will not be tolerated.
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On November 05 2015 00:41 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 23:49 Fildun wrote:On November 04 2015 23:36 Seuss wrote:On November 04 2015 23:07 Fildun wrote:On November 04 2015 23:00 Seuss wrote:On November 04 2015 22:53 Volband wrote:On November 04 2015 22:51 Seuss wrote:On November 04 2015 22:30 Volband wrote:On November 04 2015 22:16 Caiada wrote:
So go play SC2. LoL's a team game.
I don't even have friends to play with because I'm an anxious misanthrope. And you know what? I don't give a shit about this change. And if the matchmaking works at 99% of people's level, I'm going to give even less of a shit about it.
Quality comment after 5 seasons of solo queue's existence without much complaint towards the basis of the system. Not to mention that the ladder gives you rank for your SOLO performance in this team game. Jesus, we are reaching /r/leagueoflegends level now. You may feel that the system works, but Riot has clearly stated they have data and research that shows the experience could be improved not just for players already playing ranked, but for those who have stayed away because they don't want to/hate playing solo. I'm all for Riot trying to improve LoL, even if they sometimes miss the mark. While there will almost certainly be bumps along the road, I don't think this will be one of those misses. Bottom line is that they are introducing a new feature while completely erasing an old one. They create new fun experiences while shitting on old fun experiences. Just seperate them for God's sake and everyone's happy. Bottom line is they're improving the old feature, and taking measures to address the problems you're complaining about. Riot is trying to preserve your fun experience while enabling new fun for everyone involved. There will probably be a few problems initially, but I think it's an achievable goal. They aren't improving the old feature, they're replacing the old feature with a new feature and you can't just say it's an improvement, especially if you state it like a fact like you just did. You aren't the authority who decides whether something is an improvement or not. Probably for most people under Diamond 4 or so it won't matter, but above that it will significantly affect both the accuracy of the rating system and the queue times. It's just my emphatically stated opinion. I'd be less matter of fact about it if there was less doom and gloom. The whole "new feature vs improvement/change" thing is part of what makes most of what's been posted a noisy, empty debate. It's a red herring that honestly has nothing to do with anything except the battle lines people have drawn. What really matters are the concerns people have, Riot's awareness of those concerns, and Riot's ability/plan to address them. I think it's clear Riot is aware of and will address people's concerns. It seems that you and others either don't think Riot is aware of your concerns, or don't think Riot is capable of addressing them. That's fine, and we can disagree. The way I see it they haven't said or done anything to preserve the integrity of the ranking system when this change goes through. This either means they either 1) didn't think about it, 2) don't care about it or 3) can't fix it. These options all don't seem very good to me. Show nested quote +On November 05 2015 00:19 Fildun wrote:On November 05 2015 00:17 Osmoses wrote:
Why are you talking about this like it was a presidential election pertaining to the fate of the world or something? Calm down, it's just the matchmaking system of an online videogame.
Personally I always soloq, never duo. And I have no problems with any of this. I have no idea what you're even upset about. They're gonna weigh your report heavier if you're a solo among premades. They're gonna match teams of similar setups with each other. If you wanted to chat people up and be social then why are you even soloqing? In short, the hell are you mad about anyway? Personally I'm not satisfied because these changes will make it so that your MMR will be even less an indication of your skill than before. They haven't really talked much about the MMR side of things as far as I've seen. It's possible that Riot hasn't because most of the negative feedback consists of gut reactions/surface-level complaints, but I can't begrudge you for being very concerned about that aspect of the system. It's the part that's most likely to have issues. I have some faith that those issues will be temporary, but that doesn't change the fact that some people will have negative experiences in the meantime.
Of course I also hope that these issues will be solved, but since I haven't heard Riot come up with a solution I remain unsatisfied with this change.
I personally also can't think of anything that solves this problem other than different ladders (which they clearly don't want) nor have I heard anybody else with a solution that works within the proposed system.
Also having faith that these issues will be temporary doesn't really work for me.
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On November 05 2015 00:19 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2015 00:17 Osmoses wrote:
Why are you talking about this like it was a presidential election pertaining to the fate of the world or something? Calm down, it's just the matchmaking system of an online videogame.
Personally I always soloq, never duo. And I have no problems with any of this. I have no idea what you're even upset about. They're gonna weigh your report heavier if you're a solo among premades. They're gonna match teams of similar setups with each other. If you wanted to chat people up and be social then why are you even soloqing? In short, the hell are you mad about anyway? Personally I'm not satisfied because these changes will make it so that your MMR will be even less an indication of your skill than before.
Could you explain? As I understand it groups will more or less have their own MMR independent of individual MMR (except perhaps for a new group or something, IDK). That seems reasonable to me, if you're in a group then, yes, your individual MMR doesn't matter, but your group's MMR does. Also, no one can see MMR so no one can even use it as an indicator. Unless you're saying that strong individual MMR is necessary Riot's matchmaking to be correct?
Yeah, I'm confused.
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On November 04 2015 22:44 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 22:37 mordek wrote:On November 04 2015 22:33 nafta wrote:
Also you guys overrate communication so much. Unless you are actually good it really doesn't matter at all. It is like the common mistake of people thinking them duoing and being friends makes them better than the average 2 competent players at same mmr. So taking that line of thought, you shouldn't care if you're the solo in the premade 4s game? no the opposite because solo q rating is going to be meaningless. That means when the system tries to balance it out your diamond 5 could actually be a gold 4. Not even gonna start on the whole boosting thing since it is very common anyway.
SoloQ rating is already pretty meaningless given that you don't drop leagues until your MMR is a full league lower, which means like Hearthstone's star-streak system even if you average 50% you should eventually just slowly climb up.
I think the promotion helper is pretty neat though, because it just helps smooth out variance that the stupid promotion system has in the first place -- if you lose promos and immediately get back in after a single game or winstreak then instead of a Bo3/5 you can think of it as a Bo5/7
However, they should then make it easier to drop leagues but slightly harder to drop divisions, because people really care about leagues + leagues are arbitrary + leagues have some reward so boosted animals should drop as much as possible, but divisions are just as arbitrary plus have no real incentive tied to it apart from being part of the silly ranking/grind system (like Hearthstone stars basically).
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On November 05 2015 01:20 Zess wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 22:44 nafta wrote:On November 04 2015 22:37 mordek wrote:On November 04 2015 22:33 nafta wrote:
Also you guys overrate communication so much. Unless you are actually good it really doesn't matter at all. It is like the common mistake of people thinking them duoing and being friends makes them better than the average 2 competent players at same mmr. So taking that line of thought, you shouldn't care if you're the solo in the premade 4s game? no the opposite because solo q rating is going to be meaningless. That means when the system tries to balance it out your diamond 5 could actually be a gold 4. Not even gonna start on the whole boosting thing since it is very common anyway. SoloQ rating is already pretty meaningless given that you don't drop leagues until your MMR is a full league lower, which means like Hearthstone's star-streak system even if you average 50% you should eventually just slowly climb up. I think the promotion helper is pretty neat though, because it just helps smooth out variance that the stupid promotion system has in the first place -- if you lose promos and immediately get back in after a single game or winstreak then instead of a Bo3/5 you can think of it as a Bo5/7 However, they should then make it easier to drop leagues but slightly harder to drop divisions, because people really care about leagues + leagues are arbitrary + leagues have some reward so boosted animals should drop as much as possible, but divisions are just as arbitrary plus have no real incentive tied to it apart from being part of the silly ranking/grind system (like Hearthstone stars basically).
You don't climb with 50% win rate. The most important part of climbing with barely 50% win rate is what side you get since red side gives more lp and you lose less.
It might not be that accurate but can at least gives you a rough estimation. With new one it is gonna be literally useless.
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On November 05 2015 01:20 Zess wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 22:44 nafta wrote:On November 04 2015 22:37 mordek wrote:On November 04 2015 22:33 nafta wrote:
Also you guys overrate communication so much. Unless you are actually good it really doesn't matter at all. It is like the common mistake of people thinking them duoing and being friends makes them better than the average 2 competent players at same mmr. So taking that line of thought, you shouldn't care if you're the solo in the premade 4s game? no the opposite because solo q rating is going to be meaningless. That means when the system tries to balance it out your diamond 5 could actually be a gold 4. Not even gonna start on the whole boosting thing since it is very common anyway. SoloQ rating is already pretty meaningless given that you don't drop leagues until your MMR is a full league lower, which means like Hearthstone's star-streak system even if you average 50% you should eventually just slowly climb up.
They changed this in season 5. Now your MMR only has to be 1 division lower.
So gold 5 drops to silver 1 when their MMR hits silver 2. Gold 4 drops to gold 5 when their MMR hits gold 5.
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On November 05 2015 01:11 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2015 00:19 Fildun wrote:On November 05 2015 00:17 Osmoses wrote:
Why are you talking about this like it was a presidential election pertaining to the fate of the world or something? Calm down, it's just the matchmaking system of an online videogame.
Personally I always soloq, never duo. And I have no problems with any of this. I have no idea what you're even upset about. They're gonna weigh your report heavier if you're a solo among premades. They're gonna match teams of similar setups with each other. If you wanted to chat people up and be social then why are you even soloqing? In short, the hell are you mad about anyway? Personally I'm not satisfied because these changes will make it so that your MMR will be even less an indication of your skill than before. Could you explain? As I understand it groups will more or less have their own MMR independent of individual MMR (except perhaps for a new group or something, IDK). That seems reasonable to me, if you're in a group then, yes, your individual MMR doesn't matter, but your group's MMR does. Also, no one can see MMR so no one can even use it as an indicator. Unless you're saying that strong individual MMR is necessary Riot's matchmaking to be correct? Yeah, I'm confused.
Well, say you have a group with 3 Masters players and one Diamond 4. Those 3 Masters players can easily carry the D4 guy into D1, while he certainly doesn't belong there.
Plus, having someone to tell you what to do artificially increases the skill level of said person.
For example: the Masters players tell the D4 guy on TS how and when to move around the map. Now he's suddenly playing like a D2 player, but when he goes back to soloq he still plays like a D4 player while he might have gotten a lot higher up the ladder thanks to his teammates telling him what to do.
This is inherently unfair to the people who only queue solo, since they don't have access to these artificial skill level boosts.
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Why red side gives you more LP ? The only thing I knew is that red side has the higher average mmr team to somehow compensate blue side advantage, first time I hear that it also gives more LP, which does not make any sense if red side is the one with higher mmr
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No clue it just does.
The average gain loss on blue for me is 14/20 or so and 19/15 on red.
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On November 05 2015 01:40 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2015 01:20 Zess wrote:On November 04 2015 22:44 nafta wrote:On November 04 2015 22:37 mordek wrote:On November 04 2015 22:33 nafta wrote:
Also you guys overrate communication so much. Unless you are actually good it really doesn't matter at all. It is like the common mistake of people thinking them duoing and being friends makes them better than the average 2 competent players at same mmr. So taking that line of thought, you shouldn't care if you're the solo in the premade 4s game? no the opposite because solo q rating is going to be meaningless. That means when the system tries to balance it out your diamond 5 could actually be a gold 4. Not even gonna start on the whole boosting thing since it is very common anyway. SoloQ rating is already pretty meaningless given that you don't drop leagues until your MMR is a full league lower, which means like Hearthstone's star-streak system even if you average 50% you should eventually just slowly climb up. They changed this in season 5. Now your MMR only has to be 1 division lower. So gold 5 drops to silver 1 when their MMR hits silver 2. Gold 4 drops to gold 5 when their MMR hits gold 5.
Is that true? The latest information I had was that you have to be Gold 5 to drop out of Platinum 5. I've seen Plat 5 players playing with exclusively Gold 4/3 while at 0 LP and losing multiple games in a row (does every single one of those Gold 4/3 people have Gold 1 MMR?) and not get demoted.
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On November 05 2015 02:01 Zess wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2015 01:40 Ketara wrote:On November 05 2015 01:20 Zess wrote:On November 04 2015 22:44 nafta wrote:On November 04 2015 22:37 mordek wrote:On November 04 2015 22:33 nafta wrote:
Also you guys overrate communication so much. Unless you are actually good it really doesn't matter at all. It is like the common mistake of people thinking them duoing and being friends makes them better than the average 2 competent players at same mmr. So taking that line of thought, you shouldn't care if you're the solo in the premade 4s game? no the opposite because solo q rating is going to be meaningless. That means when the system tries to balance it out your diamond 5 could actually be a gold 4. Not even gonna start on the whole boosting thing since it is very common anyway. SoloQ rating is already pretty meaningless given that you don't drop leagues until your MMR is a full league lower, which means like Hearthstone's star-streak system even if you average 50% you should eventually just slowly climb up. They changed this in season 5. Now your MMR only has to be 1 division lower. So gold 5 drops to silver 1 when their MMR hits silver 2. Gold 4 drops to gold 5 when their MMR hits gold 5. Is that true? The latest information I had was that you have to be Gold 5 to drop out of Platinum 5. I've seen Plat 5 players playing with exclusively Gold 4/3 while at 0 LP and losing multiple games in a row (does every single one of those Gold 4/3 people have Gold 1 MMR?) and not get demoted.
Yes its true.
I dropped out of diamond early in the season (had to get there again QQ!) and was surprised because I dropped when I was playing plat 1-2 players, sent a ticket to Riot just to ask what was up with that and they confirmed.
And then got flamed here when I posted what the Rioter told me :D
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On November 05 2015 02:05 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2015 02:01 Zess wrote:On November 05 2015 01:40 Ketara wrote:On November 05 2015 01:20 Zess wrote:On November 04 2015 22:44 nafta wrote:On November 04 2015 22:37 mordek wrote:On November 04 2015 22:33 nafta wrote:
Also you guys overrate communication so much. Unless you are actually good it really doesn't matter at all. It is like the common mistake of people thinking them duoing and being friends makes them better than the average 2 competent players at same mmr. So taking that line of thought, you shouldn't care if you're the solo in the premade 4s game? no the opposite because solo q rating is going to be meaningless. That means when the system tries to balance it out your diamond 5 could actually be a gold 4. Not even gonna start on the whole boosting thing since it is very common anyway. SoloQ rating is already pretty meaningless given that you don't drop leagues until your MMR is a full league lower, which means like Hearthstone's star-streak system even if you average 50% you should eventually just slowly climb up. They changed this in season 5. Now your MMR only has to be 1 division lower. So gold 5 drops to silver 1 when their MMR hits silver 2. Gold 4 drops to gold 5 when their MMR hits gold 5. Is that true? The latest information I had was that you have to be Gold 5 to drop out of Platinum 5. I've seen Plat 5 players playing with exclusively Gold 4/3 while at 0 LP and losing multiple games in a row (does every single one of those Gold 4/3 people have Gold 1 MMR?) and not get demoted. Yes its true. I dropped out of diamond early in the season (had to get there again QQ!) and was surprised because I dropped when I was playing plat 1-2 players, sent a ticket to Riot just to ask what was up with that and they confirmed. And then got flamed here when I posted what the Rioter told me :D
For Diamond my anecdotal evidence does support that, because it is pretty easy to drop out of Diamond 5, but (again, caveat anecdotal) it seems much harder to drop out of Plat 5. Maybe it's because in the mid Gold-low Plat range the MMR is really compressed whereas the distribution things out toward the higher ends (based on Sufficiency's data it seems the 5th division of every league is especially fat as well)
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I would personally like to see them make promotions and demotions both easier across all divisions. I don't like how in the current system it's possible and even probable that a Plat 1 100 LP player has higher MMR than a D5 0 LP player.
But that's a pretty tangential and inappropriate conversation for the thread.
It sounds like they're making promotions easier at least for lower leagues, and that's cool because it removes a lot of the anxiety and rage that the system can cause. But I feel like if they don't also make demotions easier it can lead to inflation. It's possible they are making demotions easier too and not mentioning it. Riot does shit like that.
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On November 05 2015 02:10 Zess wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2015 02:05 Ketara wrote:On November 05 2015 02:01 Zess wrote:On November 05 2015 01:40 Ketara wrote:On November 05 2015 01:20 Zess wrote:On November 04 2015 22:44 nafta wrote:On November 04 2015 22:37 mordek wrote:On November 04 2015 22:33 nafta wrote:
Also you guys overrate communication so much. Unless you are actually good it really doesn't matter at all. It is like the common mistake of people thinking them duoing and being friends makes them better than the average 2 competent players at same mmr. So taking that line of thought, you shouldn't care if you're the solo in the premade 4s game? no the opposite because solo q rating is going to be meaningless. That means when the system tries to balance it out your diamond 5 could actually be a gold 4. Not even gonna start on the whole boosting thing since it is very common anyway. SoloQ rating is already pretty meaningless given that you don't drop leagues until your MMR is a full league lower, which means like Hearthstone's star-streak system even if you average 50% you should eventually just slowly climb up. They changed this in season 5. Now your MMR only has to be 1 division lower. So gold 5 drops to silver 1 when their MMR hits silver 2. Gold 4 drops to gold 5 when their MMR hits gold 5. Is that true? The latest information I had was that you have to be Gold 5 to drop out of Platinum 5. I've seen Plat 5 players playing with exclusively Gold 4/3 while at 0 LP and losing multiple games in a row (does every single one of those Gold 4/3 people have Gold 1 MMR?) and not get demoted. Yes its true. I dropped out of diamond early in the season (had to get there again QQ!) and was surprised because I dropped when I was playing plat 1-2 players, sent a ticket to Riot just to ask what was up with that and they confirmed. And then got flamed here when I posted what the Rioter told me :D For Diamond my anecdotal evidence does support that, because it is pretty easy to drop out of Diamond 5, but (again, caveat anecdotal) it seems much harder to drop out of Plat 5. Maybe it's because in the mid Gold-low Plat range the MMR is really compressed whereas the distribution things out toward the higher ends (based on Sufficiency's data it seems the 5th division of every league is especially fat as well)
They put it in patch notes in the beginning of this season/preseason so I'm pretty sure it's true.
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On November 05 2015 02:15 Ketara wrote:
I would personally like to see them make promotions and demotions both easier across all divisions. I don't like how in the current system it's possible and even probable that a Plat 1 100 LP player has higher MMR than a D5 0 LP player.
But that's a pretty tangential and inappropriate conversation for the thread.
It sounds like they're making promotions easier at least for lower leagues, and that's cool because it removes a lot of the anxiety and rage that the system can cause. But I feel like if they don't also make demotions easier it can lead to inflation. It's possible they are making demotions easier too and not mentioning it. Riot does shit like that.
It's going to be really silly at low elos though
I can imagine 4/5man premade surrendering every game to derank quickly and proceed to stomp low bronze kids. It should be like silver 1 in CSGO which is filled with derankers in addition to the absolute worst players
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I would be willing to guess that it's possible to detect that kind of behavior and ban it.
Not that I'm saying it won't happen. But I think it won't be the problem you think it is.
In any case, Lyte said in that post that 4 man queues in normals tend to be more toxic than they'd like, and they're going to monitor those especially carefully.
The more I think about the multi stacked queues thing the more I like it. Yes there will probably be a non zero advantage to queueing with a group. But it might be very small, and having more groups in ranked might be fun and make ranked a less toxic experience for everyone.
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EPT
