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Preseason 2016 Changes - Page 21

Forum Index > LoL General
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Prev 1 19 20 21 22 23 30 Next All
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 04 2015 17:42 GMT
#401
4 is pretty much the problem case, every other stack size should be fine long-term.
Moderator
101toss
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
3232 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-04 17:46:32
November 04 2015 17:43 GMT
#402
On November 05 2015 02:33 Ketara wrote:
I would be willing to guess that it's possible to detect that kind of behavior and ban it.

Not that I'm saying it won't happen. But I think it won't be the problem you think it is.


In any case, Lyte said in that post that 4 man queues in normals tend to be more toxic than they'd like, and they're going to monitor those especially carefully.

The more I think about the multi stacked queues thing the more I like it. Yes there will probably be a non zero advantage to queueing with a group. But it might be very small, and having more groups in ranked might be fun and make ranked a less toxic experience for everyone.

Oh yeah there's no argument that this will be great for people who have friends who play this game; the only people getting shafted are solo q players who refuse to group up.

Also in terms of detection, you'd think it'd be easy to detect deranking, but there are variables that can be used to mask it. Also, if riot can't solve disco nunu without outright removing clarity/cv...
Math doesn't kill champions and neither do wards
Zess
Profile Joined July 2012
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
November 04 2015 17:49 GMT
#403
I'm not sure 4-mans will be as toxic as you think, even if Doctor Lyte, Riot Ph.D mentions that they're more toxic than the baseline.

I've played a lot of solo normal queues and there have been a lot of times where I was sort of sure that I was with a 4-man but it was hard to tell because the game played basically like normal.

I've also played a lot of 4-man stacks and we always invite the 5th to Discord and are generally positive playing with the guy.


In addition, as long as Plenty Of People Are Playing The Game, there shouldn't really be a noticeable affect in how you do ranked games because in the bulk of the playerbase area the queue groups should match up pretty easily eliminating any persistent biases in how they adjust for elo inflation.
Administrator@TL_Zess
| (• ◡•)|八 (❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 04 2015 17:53 GMT
#404
Its not necessarily that 4-stacks are more toxic on average, its that any particularly toxic 4-stack has more power to ruin the play experience for the 5th player than any other possible combination of stacks/solo players.
Moderator
crimethinking
Profile Joined February 2015
Vietnam765 Posts
November 04 2015 17:58 GMT
#405
4-man stacks put the odd guy in a very weird position. From my experience back in Dota, most of the 4 stacks had this weird "us vs. you" mentality in which the odd guy out either had to be their bitch, or would get flamed and repawted to no ends.
ktrolster | OMG | worldelite
Kaneh
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada737 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-04 18:02:09
November 04 2015 18:01 GMT
#406
I'm pretty sure 4-mans are significantly more frustrating/toxic, but we're probably comparing something like 10% instead of 5%, so it's still going to be low overall. Just like the number lyte has, where the duoqs that are nice never show up cause they just play the game and you never know.

The changes makes a ton of sense on the whole having fun and teamgame aspect, but they do kinda make it harder for rank to be about skill.

Then again, your ability to find and work with people can also be considered a skill, and at the end of the day winning is what really matters right? Its interesting to think about what soloq is really measuring now. I guess we can call it ranked queue instead of soloq. Its not going to measure you 'solo' abilities as much anymore. The more I type about it the more it makes sense that they would try to measure more of your team skill rather than your pure solo skill.

I guess I rather have a more arbitrary team system that measures teams better than a tighter solo system that measures something that shouldn't apply as much.
crimethinking
Profile Joined February 2015
Vietnam765 Posts
November 04 2015 18:03 GMT
#407
On November 05 2015 03:01 Kaneh wrote:
Its interesting to think about what soloq is really measuring now. I guess we can call it ranked queue instead of soloq. Its not going to measure you 'solo' abilities as much anymore.

I feel like Riot is trying to make solo queue some kind of "jack-of-all-trades" situation, in which you have fun, measure your skill, and work with other people at the same time.

Sadly, this world is not perfect, and trying to make a system good at everything tends to end in a system that is good at nothing. Riot seems to have a severe case of Reality Distortion Field.
ktrolster | OMG | worldelite
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
November 04 2015 18:07 GMT
#408
From my vast experience on the other side of the coin the biggest problem for the single player in this situation is a lot of MIAs or general map awareness thoughts end up being said on skype, and this guy is playing in the dark. It's not malicious it's just convinient. Same thing goes for re engages or dragon contesting or tower trades.

I actually think it lends a lot of creedence to the people saying making these changes w/o voice chat is silly. Even if you aren't toxic (which obviously I think I'm not LOL) that person gets buttfucked by your skype call.
Carrilord has arrived.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
November 04 2015 18:21 GMT
#409
On November 05 2015 02:49 Zess wrote:
I'm not sure 4-mans will be as toxic as you think, even if Doctor Lyte, Riot Ph.D mentions that they're more toxic than the baseline.

I've played a lot of solo normal queues and there have been a lot of times where I was sort of sure that I was with a 4-man but it was hard to tell because the game played basically like normal.

I've also played a lot of 4-man stacks and we always invite the 5th to Discord and are generally positive playing with the guy.


In addition, as long as Plenty Of People Are Playing The Game, there shouldn't really be a noticeable affect in how you do ranked games because in the bulk of the playerbase area the queue groups should match up pretty easily eliminating any persistent biases in how they adjust for elo inflation.

IMO, implementing multi-player queue without ingame voice chat is a Manchurian candidate for exposing more toxicity on the part of Riot. Its really the most plausible explanation because they routinely never allow for changes that may have the slightest risk of increasing expectations (aka potential legitimate criticisms to levy on teammates) of players towards others, and now they implement a system that massively increases scrutiny on one or two players in a game? Highly suspect.
Freeeeeeedom
Kaneh
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada737 Posts
November 04 2015 18:23 GMT
#410
On November 05 2015 03:03 crimethinking wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 03:01 Kaneh wrote:
Its interesting to think about what soloq is really measuring now. I guess we can call it ranked queue instead of soloq. Its not going to measure you 'solo' abilities as much anymore.

I feel like Riot is trying to make solo queue some kind of "jack-of-all-trades" situation, in which you have fun, measure your skill, and work with other people at the same time.

Sadly, this world is not perfect, and trying to make a system good at everything tends to end in a system that is good at nothing. Riot seems to have a severe case of Reality Distortion Field.


I think they're not making a system good at everything. They very clearly aren't making a good system for solo players. They are clearly making it worse, lyte even admits as much that the problems are marginally worse for 3 and noticeably worse with 4.

Its more is the tradeoff of 'solo' worth the gain in 'team'. Riot thinks their data and tests show that is it, and honestly I trust them on this. At the very least they're trying to improve something that admittedly worked but wasn't perfect, and that's a good direction worthy of support, even if there are some failures along the way.
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
November 04 2015 18:30 GMT
#411
I feel like riot doesn't want voice, because they can't read the logs.
Carrilord has arrived.
Caiada
Profile Joined January 2015
United States3052 Posts
November 04 2015 18:40 GMT
#412
Never liked the idea of in-client voice chat; the problems are obvious. It'll be mandatory and people will bitch at you if you decide hey I'll listen to some music or have a chill game of LoL without randos yelling. It's different in CS:GO because it's much quicker and much much much less casual.

They need something optional you can invite people to in champ select. Like Curse Voice but supported.
XDG Mata
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
November 04 2015 18:41 GMT
#413
or just like lol voice but with opt out????
Carrilord has arrived.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
November 04 2015 18:58 GMT
#414
In-game voice chat would have to cover PvP.net as well to really work. Most premade groups are going to want to talk to each other before/after/between games, and they'll use Skype/Mumble/whatever to do it if you don't provide them the means yourself.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 04 2015 19:07 GMT
#415
On November 05 2015 03:40 Caiada wrote:
Never liked the idea of in-client voice chat; the problems are obvious. It'll be mandatory and people will bitch at you if you decide hey I'll listen to some music or have a chill game of LoL without randos yelling. It's different in CS:GO because it's much quicker and much much much less casual.

So what about DotA, where in-client voice works just fine and is widely used but also not mandatory?
Moderator
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-04 19:39:56
November 04 2015 19:37 GMT
#416
Imagine if we went back in time one week, and you said: "Riot's going to announce team builder draft, a brand new champ select, fixing promo series, fixing high-MMR matchmaking, a way to get FREE SKINS, and a BRAND NEW CLIENT".

And it turned out that the community didn't give one shit about all of that and instead preferred to bitch about a scenario (4 friends of equal rank queuing up for ranked together, and then you getting queued into that group, and then that group deciding to be toxic towards you after they all get their preferred role/champ) that maybe happens less than 5% of the time.

Sometimes I wonder about the psychological toll of working for a year to make all these huge improvements, only to get massively shit on for some small stupid inconsequential thing. It's like a pussy-whipped guy spending five hours making Valentine's Day dinner for his girlfriend only to get screamed at because he used the wrong silverware or something.
What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-04 19:40:39
November 04 2015 19:38 GMT
#417
What is there to say about any of those things other than "oh nice" or "it's about time"?

The only thing I can think of is "why can you only pick 2 roles or fill instead of 3/4 roles?".
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-04 19:43:44
November 04 2015 19:41 GMT
#418
It won't matter at all because as stated, the people shafted by the changes mentioned here are a minority.
People who'd gush all over "free skins" even if it was -EV or something, or barely brought anything, but just for the idea of it? There are plenty of these, ensuring Riot positive feedback (positive as in favourable, not "good").

Same with how when you're somewhat decent at the game, but not a pro, you're often getting shafted by the balance decisions and soloQ because a lot of the players don't touch ranked at all (or past their placements), and amongst those who do over half are Silver or Bronze.

That's a vocal minority, one that kinda regularly gets shat on, but still a minority.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-04 19:56:22
November 04 2015 19:41 GMT
#419
Because if dungeon finder in wow has taught us anything, fill=support

If it was literally 20% chance at each role I'd be so down but that's just not how these things end up working
Carrilord has arrived.
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-04 19:51:04
November 04 2015 19:48 GMT
#420
I think the point is that this is why I can't take any of you complainers seriously. When trinkets came out, the experts told us they didn't need to hear any more - they knew it would just ruin the game. If dynamic queues weren't announced yesterday, you'd be complaining that the drop rates for keys will probably be set really low and we aren't going to be getting enough free skins. (See, e.g., Alaric talking about how free skins are somehow going to be negative EV.) And one day, when replays are announced, the ensuing thread will be mostly complaining and whining about something totally inconsequential.

And it's the same people who just repeatedly post over and over again. It's the boy who cried Kindred: if you complain about literally anything and everything, nonstop, any legitimate criticism is just lost in a sea of bitching. It makes looking for any interesting discussion (how will the new champ select change solo queue? are we going to have better pick/ban phases if bans are distributed? are priority picks really that important in solo queue? did assist gold overly encourage teamfight comps, and will it lead to a change in the meta?) pointless because we'd all rather shit on Riot.

(Still better than /r/hearthstone or /r/starcraft though.)
What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
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