EPTPreseason 2016 Changes - Page 12
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On November 03 2015 02:11 Ketara wrote: She also can't split near as well anymore because she can't nope.jpg ganks by ulting, and she can't ult to burst down towers. Yeah the 2 second channel time is actually friggen brutal. Feels terrible. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On November 03 2015 01:28 iCanada wrote: But they did remove literally half her abilities... I really liked old Quinn. I honestly don't think there is much she can do now that she didn't do before, but they gutted a lot of her core gameplay and strengths. She also used to have an interrupt on her E and the blind on Q. She lost burst damage and utility... no matter how high her dps is now that's almost always a bad trade in a pvp environment. Maybe I'm just biased because I liked quinn as she was before. I dunno, this doesn't feel like love, just feels... meh. I think you're referring to her transformed abilities? From my POV they're almost the same as normal QWE (compared to, say, if they removed the transform abilities for Jayce/Nid/Elise). If you're not referring to them, well, the only whole ability they really removed was R. But I sympathize. I've been where you are except with the xerath rework. Your points about her being in terrible shape balance-wise are probably valid, but I think those are things that can be solved later. I think someone is bound to be left behind at the start of the patch and we're also bound to have some champs and items be broken. Balance issues may get tempered on the PBE but they don't really get fixed as far as I can tell. | ||
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Ramiel
United States1220 Posts
 i loved the old xerath so much.RIP IN PEACE! That being said, i am looking at the new talents page, and some of them look really interesting for kiters. 35% increase in movement speed if you can do 30% of damage to a champ? That seems so much on champs like cassio. Ludens echo / rylis and her passive on q, cant wait to try it. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On November 03 2015 05:19 phyvo wrote: I think you're referring to her transformed abilities? From my POV they're almost the same as normal QWE (comared to, say, if they removed the transform abilities for Jayce/Nid/Elise). If you're not referring to them, well, the only whole ability they really removed was R. But I sympathize. I've been where you are except with the xerath rework. Your points about her being in terrible shape balance-wise are probably valid, but I thing those are things that can be solved later. I think someone is bound to be left behind at the start of things and we're also bound to have some champs and items be broken. Balance issues may get tempered on the PBE but they don't really get fixed as far as I can tell. Balance problems can be solved later, but in Quinn's case it's not something I think numbers can really "solve", at least not without causing more problems. As I noted earlier there are basically two ways a mid champion can buy time for themselves to roam:
The problem as I see it is that if you give Quinn the ability to out-fight your typical AP mid despite the fact she effectively has no ultimate for 1v1s, she'll probably be too strong. At the same time, the way her Q functions there's no way to give it reasonable numbers and give her to pushing power she needs to compete with AP mids. Either way her numbers are going to have to be overtuned and that seems like a recipe for problems. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
People immediately jump to conceptual problems when 99% of actual balance is just numbers no matter the kit. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 03 2015 07:45 Caiada wrote: People immediately jump to conceptual problems when 99% of actual balance is just numbers no matter the kit. People jump to conceptual problems when "balanced" numbers appear to imply gameplay patterns that would be considered unhealthy or unfun (either by Riot or by players, usually both). On November 03 2015 07:52 Seuss wrote: You're correct that most people tend to jump straight to conceptual solutions, but in this case I don't agree that you can simply give her the dueling power she needs in Q/E/Harrier and have her be balanced. I mean, she'd be "balanced" in that her overall ability to win games would be fair, it would just be super lopsided in a way that would make the game unfun for somebody. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On November 03 2015 07:45 Caiada wrote: "Doesn't have an ult" is a trivial distinction if Q/E/Harrier are tuned properly for her to duel people, which they're not right now. Whether she can compete with AP mids or not is a question of what her actual position should be given the kit weaknesses. People immediately jump to conceptual problems when 99% of actual balance is just numbers no nomatter the kit. I would say its the opposite. Most of the issues are conceptual, and sometimes for one or two patches the problems are papered over because the numbers happen to work temporarily. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
And if she could control lane like that then with a 0 cooldown ult she could gank all the time every time. I share montes concerns here. Does her ult cost mana? Can she ult at her tower before each wave and skystrike the wave to CS? | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Also her new Skystrike only does 100% of her AD in damage so it's not all that great for CSing early on. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
It's a lot of the designer being like "I know you all hate this but we aren't changing it" He did say they were considering removing skystrike entirely and shifting damage to her other spells, which I think would help. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Pretty rare for them to completely rework a champions ult like this. Usually they at least try to keep the ult feeling similar. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I don't remember an old Taric ult. That must have been a long time ago. There's some really really good posts on the pbe Quinn thread discussing why playing as valor is critical to the theme of the champion and removing that will destroy her identity. I think I agree. It's supposed to be Quinn & Valor, not Quinn. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On November 03 2015 08:42 TheYango wrote: People jump to conceptual problems when "balanced" numbers appear to imply gameplay patterns that would be considered unhealthy or unfun (either by Riot or by players, usually both). Its also possible that the structure of the champion makes her strength very sensitive to number changes A good example of this is linear melee champions. I.E. champions that have a targeted dash to go IN, but nothing to go out with. Their gameplay means that they're either stronger, and so go in and win by virtue of that, or they're weaker and they lose. If they win they get stronger and are stronger forever, if they lose they're weaker and they're weaker forever. There is very little outplay or come back mechanics inherent in the champion. These types of champions are really sensitive to raw value changes since raw value changes will push them over that 'wins the fight fight" edge very quickly | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
Old Taric ult was indeed removed quite awhile ago... patch 1.0.0.125, AKA Riven release 2011. It worked similar to Swain ult except it gave you a flat AD bonus and healed you over time as you kept it active. It had a small AD aura too. It was defining in that as long as you kept it on Taric could be really hard to kill. When they first replaced it with the newer, burstier one Taric just started killing people instead. ...man I've been playing this game for awhile. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 03 2015 11:13 Goumindong wrote: Its also possible that the structure of the champion makes her strength very sensitive to number changes A good example of this is linear melee champions. I.E. champions that have a targeted dash to go IN, but nothing to go out with. Their gameplay means that they're either stronger, and so go in and win by virtue of that, or they're weaker and they lose. If they win they get stronger and are stronger forever, if they lose they're weaker and they're weaker forever. There is very little outplay or come back mechanics inherent in the champion. These types of champions are really sensitive to raw value changes since raw value changes will push them over that 'wins the fight fight" edge very quickly For the most part, champions that's true of are also examples of what I said. A kit that's overly sensitive to numbers changes usually belies a lopsided kit where their gameplay is overly hinged on success/failure in certain gameplay scenarios. Referring to the bolded part--a champion being overly snowbally one way or the other is an example of a gameplay pattern that is considered unhealthy even if on a broad scale the champion has balanced win percentages. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
They can take away the skystrike damage it s a whole lot of meh. I'd also prefer for them to add like a 15 seconds CD on her ult and take away the 2s channel time, but that is just me. Its not like she'd be able to use it in a fight anyway, seeing how it dies anytime she takes damage regardless. | ||
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