EPTSlight aside, you can thank reddit for this video:
[Patch 5.15] Fiora Remake General Discussion - Page 45
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Reminder the PBE thread has been revived - please take PBE discussion there, thanks! http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/491813-pbe-515-juggernaughts-general-discussion | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
Slight aside, you can thank reddit for this video: | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
Forcing players to have a broader champ mastery would certainly make the comps more interesting I think. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On August 19 2015 04:10 Harem wrote: so what happens when the other team has Lee sin, Fizz, Nidalee, Yasuo etc? Since people who play those champs are overwhelmingly toxic individuals, the OP is balanced by the inevitable internal strife and conflict. | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
On August 19 2015 03:38 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Well they said this much more recently so we have some time to go before they 180. I don't think people really lose in champ select right now. People don't really do much of anything in champ select now, really. so what happens when the other team has Lee sin, Fizz, Nidalee, Yasuo etc? | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
The attack speed doesn't matter much in Vi's Combo because 1) Denting blows attack speed negates much of the % advantage 2) You're largely resetting your attack cooldown with E and weaving in Abilities. In the combo Ult-AA,E,Q,AA,E almost any amount of Q charge time will go over your attack timer. That being said, i assumed two spellblade procs because ,E,Q,AA,E, should take more than 1.5 seconds even if you don't charge the Q up fully. Though it is fully possible that you only get one if you don't charge Q and use your abilities as fast as you can. You ought to get two spellblade procs. At the very least you should be waiting on the second E for when your spellblade is up again if you have triforce because if you don't you miss out on a lot of damage. That also being said: Again. Its not an issue that Triforce does more burst because that isn't what makes each item better/worse. At 3000 gold Triforce gets shit on for damage against BC since Triforce can't be bought if you only have 3000 gold. At 2535 gold, Sheen does more damage than Kindlegem. If we add in a pickaxe so that we have about equal offensive stat buys for each item then BC is pretty comparable to even a completed Triforce (the Pickaxe will add 162.5 raw damage) and of course will stomp it in DPS after the combo because 205/170 = 1.205 and (for a 50 armor target) 130/118 = 1.10 = 32.5% extra auto attack DPS (whereas Triforce will be 1.15 x 1.10 or so) edit: and Q and E will come up again faster. @GrandInquisitor I think you missed the Warrior Armor Pen(as did Teut). Remember to apply it after the % shred. I also can't replicate your armor values so i am not sure what you're doing there | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
=$C$29*G11*(0.95^$H11)*(1-$E$29)-$D$29 which reads {varus 60 base armor} * {denting blows, either 1 or 0.8} * {number of BC stacks} * {.94, representing the 6% armor pen mastery} - {10 from warrior} | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
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Mensol
14536 Posts
possibly EDG house. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
The reason why something like BC is better on Zed than Pantheon when it comes to personal damage is that Pantheon's damage is frontloaded. Go W-aa-Q-aa-E, you've now got all 6 stacks of BC applied... and all your burst is gone. Zed will ult you, use his spells, have BotRK apply another stack, then the active and his ult's detonation will benefit from all the armour reduction. Vi goes R-aa-E-aa-Q-aa-E, and the 6th stack is applied after Q. So you miss out on stacks for R, first spellblade auto, first denting blows trigger. Q arguably benefits from 5 stacks already so I'll let it slide, but that's a significant part of your burst that's gone. Vi plays like an initiator/assassin (depending on how much she's there for lockdown, and how much she's able to get the target killed then survive), she's about that upfront burst, not the "chase them afterwards". Plus as mentioned she's probably not the kind to duke it out with the frontline (if it goes lategame you want to survive your initiation because you target will most likely survive it, sure, but that doesn't mean you should try to 1v1 that Shyvana or Sion; it means that you missed your power peak though if the game goes that long), so if you wanted an item to deal with armour, you'd get LW to enhance your burst and personal damage (for cheaper too). Your primary targets (squishies) won't get that much armour anyway, at least not from items, and while she's decent during clean-up because of Q's big damage and range, she's also a lot easier to lock down than Riven/Zed/Kha'Zix if you try to stay in the middle of the fight post-initiation. Edit: that's actually the reason why I got mad at everyone putting BC on Pantheon and saying you rush it and other stuff when it first came out (and got made reasonable, 0K, 0K), because even though E applied 3 of the then-4 max stacks in AoE, it was also most of Pantheon's damage, so you want the enemy's armour to be at its lowest before you even cast it. BC's shred is worse than LW for selfish damage, and you need multiple AoE sources of damage (or ticks in one source) if your goal is to increase your team's overall damage. As soon as burst is involved, BC's shred sees its stock lower. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On August 19 2015 04:50 Mensol wrote: Rumours saying that fnatic going to prepare Worlds in China wowz. possibly EDG house. Yup, in that swanky EDG office building. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On August 19 2015 04:20 Goumindong wrote: @Ghalo The attack speed doesn't matter much in Vi's Combo because 1) Denting blows attack speed negates much of the % advantage 2) You're largely resetting your attack cooldown with E and weaving in Abilities. In the combo Ult-AA,E,Q,AA,E almost any amount of Q charge time will go over your attack timer. That being said, i assumed two spellblade procs because ,E,Q,AA,E, should take more than 1.5 seconds even if you don't charge the Q up fully. Though it is fully possible that you only get one if you don't charge Q and use your abilities as fast as you can. You ought to get two spellblade procs. At the very least you should be waiting on the second E for when your spellblade is up again if you have triforce because if you don't you miss out on a lot of damage. That also being said: Again. Its not an issue that Triforce does more burst because that isn't what makes each item better/worse. At 3000 gold Triforce gets shit on for damage against BC since Triforce can't be bought if you only have 3000 gold. At 2535 gold, Sheen does more damage than Kindlegem. If we add in a pickaxe so that we have about equal offensive stat buys for each item then BC is pretty comparable to even a completed Triforce (the Pickaxe will add 162.5 raw damage) and of course will stomp it in DPS after the combo because 205/170 = 1.205 and (for a 50 armor target) 130/118 = 1.10 = 32.5% extra auto attack DPS (whereas Triforce will be 1.15 x 1.10 or so) edit: and Q and E will come up again faster. @GrandInquisitor I think you missed the Warrior Armor Pen(as did Teut). Remember to apply it after the % shred. I also can't replicate your armor values so i am not sure what you're doing there I ignored the warrior armour pen and just reduced targets armour from 60 to 50 to make calculations easier since i just did it in the post screen with a pc calc in 10 minutes. A few points about attack speed: Denting blows doen't "negate" the extra attack speed. It increases things like attack animation which change factors like "do you get an extra auto off on the adc before he runs out of range". Also if you auto 5 times and 30% attack speed factors based on your base attack speed, you're going about 0.2 attacks per second so with a 5 auto thing gaining 1 extra auto is reasonable. the AA resets change this a bit though, but I think it's still naive to ignore the extra attack speed. I had a quick look at Grinqs math, but he's ignoring a second spellblade proc which is silly, you're not going to get a full combo and like 4 autos with only one trinity proc, and using a lower damage base so the %'s don't change as much but the damage difference seems smaller, but it looks fairly sound, also ignoring increased as and crit which id disagree with I'll look at it more later | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Plus, with 5% CDR from masteries + 5% CDR from runes, you get 40% CDR from Warrior + BC, which is nice. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On August 19 2015 04:48 Fusilero wrote: Build bloodthirster on Vi neo, it's the only way I was always a fan of Zhonyas Vi | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On August 19 2015 05:17 GrandInquisitor wrote: Again, I think the core takeaway here is that from full health, an ADC is going down after Vi's two-item combo plus maybe one AA or two, regardless of whether you have TF or BC. If you define your job as "kill an ADC in a 1v1" you've got the kill 700g earlier with BC, plus a bunch of tankiness and 20% CDR to be able to do that more often, plus the teamwide armor shred and more damage to tanks. TF only makes sense if you need to assassinate higher health enemies without armor. Plus, with 5% CDR from masteries + 5% CDR from runes, you get 40% CDR from Warrior + BC, which is nice. I'm still not signing off on your math, another thing is that you don't have 170 AD with vi at level 13, I just played a game now and I had 192 or something at 13, over 200 at 14, a lot closer to 200. You didn't take into account runes and masteries and 1st dragon buff. (Most teams have 1st dragon buff I'd say) Second thing is you are ignoring most of trinities stats (as, crit, only one spellblade proc) which is where most of the difference comes from so yeah the real damage difference is probably closer to what I had at 400-600 maybe less because warrior armourpen may benefit BC slightly more A side note is that you used a non charged q instead of a full charged q which is probably more rare, but I'm not sure. My math suggested warrior+bc+bf sword was needed to breakeven with trinity, but that was slightly more optimistic perhaps on attacak speed getting in an extra auto and the possibility of a crit factored in, without that it's more like warrior+bc+pickaxe with the point that trinity is also more useful in all skirmish situations and post burst situations because of extra trinity procs One mistake is my math was that there should have been another denting blows at the end with my count of autos. Oh, you're also assuming 21/9 Vi, I'm assuming 9/21, especially good is the 21st defense point when you are engaging like that, however scip probably would get 21/9 for faster clear speed and slightly stronger ganks. It's possible that 21/9 is better though. I didn't think about it too much yet. Anyway just the extra spellblade proc is enough to come closer to the 20% increase in damage over BC (about what I had) which isn't counting extra auto/crit so it's possible that your numbers actually favour trinity more than mine did, it's just I used a longer combo and higher (more accurate) ad numbers so the % difference looks more significant in flat damage numbers. | ||
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