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[Patch 5.15] Fiora Remake General Discussion - Page 46

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Reminder the PBE thread has been revived - please take PBE discussion there, thanks! http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/491813-pbe-515-juggernaughts-general-discussion
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
August 18 2015 20:40 GMT
#901
As the person who vi attempts to assassinate you definitely don't come even close to one shotting an adc with warrior+bc.Not to mention most people actually have the reaction to not get hit by your q unless you use flash to hit it.
kongoline
Profile Joined February 2012
6318 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-18 20:47:36
August 18 2015 20:41 GMT
#902
nvm i confused role with lane
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
August 18 2015 20:50 GMT
#903
I used a noncharged Q because I thought the point was that we were doing R - AA - E - Q - AA - E? Your Q is basically instant there like Janna tornado.

I don't see how you get to 200 AD on Vi on level 14 - wikia pretty clearly says she's 98 at level 14, warrior/TF give you 70 combined, so where's the extra 30 coming from? Dragon alone?

And I didn't realize anyone ever played Vi 9-21. You don't get much from 9 points in offense, but 9 points in defense at least gets you the slow reduction (great for her Q), the jungle masteries, and the 3% increased health. You're first and foremost a damage champion who stays alive by killing them before they kill you.

Also I'm glad we've all come to the consensus of ignoring nafta's posts, who apparently can't hit a Vi Q even after using Vi's ultimate.
What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
August 18 2015 20:51 GMT
#904
Question about the secret TL OP item, Face of the Mountain (I can sense Ketara getting hard already):

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Face_of_the_Mountain

Notes

The Spoils of War does not provide the wearer any actual gold. All gold generated is given to allies instead.

I could have sworn this is not true. Am I delusional? I really thought both champions got the gold when relic shield killed a minion.
What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-18 20:53:49
August 18 2015 20:53 GMT
#905
On August 19 2015 05:50 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I used a noncharged Q because I thought the point was that we were doing R - AA - E - Q - AA - E? Your Q is basically instant there like Janna tornado.

I don't see how you get to 200 AD on Vi on level 14 - wikia pretty clearly says she's 98 at level 14, warrior/TF give you 70 combined, so where's the extra 30 coming from? Dragon alone?

And I didn't realize anyone ever played Vi 9-21. You don't get much from 9 points in offense, but 9 points in defense at least gets you the slow reduction (great for her Q), the jungle masteries, and the 3% increased health. You're first and foremost a damage champion who stays alive by killing them before they kill you.

Also I'm glad we've all come to the consensus of ignoring nafta's posts, who apparently can't hit a Vi Q even after using Vi's ultimate.

??????Lol k bro

Maybe one day when you stop being a shitter you will understand what I am talking about.

User was warned for this post
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23460 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-18 20:54:42
August 18 2015 20:53 GMT
#906
On August 19 2015 05:50 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I used a noncharged Q because I thought the point was that we were doing R - AA - E - Q - AA - E? Your Q is basically instant there like Janna tornado.

I don't see how you get to 200 AD on Vi on level 14 - wikia pretty clearly says she's 98 at level 14, warrior/TF give you 70 combined, so where's the extra 30 coming from? Dragon alone?

And I didn't realize anyone ever played Vi 9-21. You don't get much from 9 points in offense, but 9 points in defense at least gets you the slow reduction (great for her Q), the jungle masteries, and the 3% increased health. You're first and foremost a damage champion who stays alive by killing them before they kill you.

Also I'm glad we've all come to the consensus of ignoring nafta's posts, who apparently can't hit a Vi Q even after using Vi's ultimate.


Runes, masteries. AD/lvl+flat ad mastery, then dragon buff.
9 points in offense tree is good, gives you the must important stats. 2% damage, 5% as, and lots of ad. the rest of the points give you executioner, 3% damage, armour pen and spell/blad waving.
I probably agree that 21/9 vi is better because of executioner.
Actually I don't disagree with nafta at all. I was adding in an extra auto after E and assuming they flashed out or you got CC'd, so you need Q to gapclose.
Q is very dodgeable so it's not guaranteed to hit, its difficult to find a champ who will just sit there and let you auto him for 4 seconds or so without getting out of range.
aka Teutonica
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-18 20:53:47
August 18 2015 20:53 GMT
#907
On August 19 2015 05:51 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Question about the secret TL OP item, Face of the Mountain (I can sense Ketara getting hard already):

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Face_of_the_Mountain

Show nested quote +
Notes

The Spoils of War does not provide the wearer any actual gold. All gold generated is given to allies instead.

I could have sworn this is not true. Am I delusional? I really thought both champions got the gold when relic shield killed a minion.


Both champions do get gold, but only your ally gets gold from Spoils of War.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
August 18 2015 20:53 GMT
#908
It's actually very easy to miss. Not actively, but if they have a dash/flash you can't just tap Q after R and keep them cc'd.
I used to do that when she came out and people tried to run away from my ganks (or I ended up diving), R -> tap Q to knock them back toward your allies and chain the cc. Either people became better at reacting or the time frame between the two was increased, because even with 40 ping I'd only blow their flash right after my ult and Q empty space for awhile.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
August 18 2015 20:54 GMT
#909
On August 19 2015 05:51 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Question about the secret TL OP item, Face of the Mountain (I can sense Ketara getting hard already):

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Face_of_the_Mountain

Show nested quote +
Notes

The Spoils of War does not provide the wearer any actual gold. All gold generated is given to allies instead.

I could have sworn this is not true. Am I delusional? I really thought both champions got the gold when relic shield killed a minion.

It just means that Spoils of War only gives gold to your teammate and not give you additional gold.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23460 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-18 20:58:59
August 18 2015 20:56 GMT
#910
For the record I don't think warrior+trinity is the best idea in most games because you're too squishy if teamfights start happening and they just focus you, however I still think trinity is the best damage item, probably what you should get after randuins or something.
I think BC is probably just a mediocre middle of the line option where you aren't getting a good item for assassinating people but you're still spending more than you should on damage when you want to get tanky first.
The stats are good enough on its own that it's not exactly bad, but I don't think its the optimal build route.
I'd probably get giants belt+phage-->sheen+trinity and then more tank items, or perhaps FoTM-->phage-->sheen-->trinity.
aka Teutonica
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
August 18 2015 21:02 GMT
#911
On August 19 2015 05:56 Slayer91 wrote:
For the record I don't think warrior+trinity is the best idea in most games because you're too squishy if teamfights start happening and they just focus you, however I still think trinity is the best damage item, probably what you should get after randuins or something.
I think BC is probably just a mediocre middle of the line option where you aren't getting a good item for assassinating people but you're still spending more than you should on damage when you want to get tanky first.
The stats are good enough on its own that it's not exactly bad, but I don't think its the optimal build route.
I'd probably get giants belt+phage-->sheen+trinity and then more tank items, or perhaps FoTM-->phage-->sheen-->trinity.

It depends on how the game is going like anything else.Say if you have a hard engage comp and you aren't actually required to go in first trinity is always the best but if you have to go in first randuins makes a lot more sense.Or say in our game where shen ulted you when you go in you can afford to go trinity first as well.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23460 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-18 21:05:55
August 18 2015 21:04 GMT
#912
yeah shen vi so cancer LOL
its like a free fotm worth of hp
I think i went too ham on azir when my flash wasn't up though, after he gets out I need to Q out of the fight because they focused me every time zz
aka Teutonica
Goumindong
Profile Joined February 2013
United States3529 Posts
August 18 2015 21:06 GMT
#913
On August 19 2015 05:05 Slayer91 wrote:
Denting blows doen't "negate" the extra attack speed. It increases things like attack animation which change factors like "do you get an extra auto off on the adc before he runs out of range". Also if you auto 5 times and 30% attack speed factors based on your base attack speed, you're going about 0.2 attacks per second so with a 5 auto thing gaining 1 extra auto is reasonable. the AA resets change this a bit though, but I think it's still naive to ignore the extra attack speed.


It kind of does. At level 13 you are going to have 27.2% bonus AS from levels(and probably some from masteries/runes but not a clue if you run AS on Vi jungle). You're going to have 30-50% from E once you hit AA-E-Q-AA which we can agree isn't made much faster due to AS. It certainly doesn't effect your full ult-AA-E-Q-AA-E combo time in any appreciable way since you don't make any AA's that aren't weaved between abilities.

So
Rank 1 W:
1.57/1.87 = 19% more attacks
Rank 5 W: 17% more attacks

I was wrong about just how much it reduced the value but its still significant enough to not make up for BC's bonus damage/lower cost in terms of post combo auto attack DPS. Which we aren't bothering to figure because this is immaterial to the discussion.

Triforce isn't as good an item on Vi the same reason Hydra isn't as good an item on Vi despite Hydra having a lot more burst than Triforce and being cheaper [ult, AA,E,Q,AA,E+ hydra active somewhere in there does about 130 and 1.35% max health raw damage over Triforce assuming two Triforce Procs]. We aren't just maximizing burst and calling it a day we care about the other properties of the items.

Aside: Deadman's Plate and Titanic Hydra are now available on the Rift right. Deadman's Plate seems like an obvious buy over Randuin's for the moment for Vi
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23460 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-18 21:09:15
August 18 2015 21:08 GMT
#914
Trinity a lot of movement, which is good for a champ with low sticking power, as well as a 200 burst every time you do get in range for an E, you can't compare it to hydra which is only good for the active just after you ult.
20% more attacks is an extra attack if you auto 5 times, you have some auto resets but its reasonable to assume you'll get at least 1 extra attack in the teamfight.
aka Teutonica
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-18 21:09:08
August 18 2015 21:08 GMT
#915
--- Nuked ---
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23460 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-18 21:14:00
August 18 2015 21:13 GMT
#916
On August 19 2015 06:08 krndandaman wrote:
randuins > fotm on vi
you want to dive the carry and aoe slow rather than have a pseudo warmogs + shield. as great as fotm is, randuins is better on vi

oh and the armor/passive is also nice.


It's possible you want both anyway. FoTM gives you about 750 hp with the shield for 2200 gold, randuins 650 more for -666.7 gold for +1400 gold worth of armour+the slows. So if you ignore the regen, FoTM proc heals+gold back and 10% cdr randuins is better.
You also need to take into account that HP is a significantly better source of EHP than resists until around 2500 hp, especially when your shield is based off max hp, and if you're ulting the ADC you probably will be taking mostly magic damage as well if you're going to be bursted down.
So yeah, I have my reasons for suggesting FoTM but randuins is good too. I'd get randuins after FoTM for sure unless I needed hex
I always forget randuins slow, that contributes to my decision too LOL
aka Teutonica
Goumindong
Profile Joined February 2013
United States3529 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-18 21:23:38
August 18 2015 21:22 GMT
#917
On August 19 2015 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:
Trinity a lot of movement, which is good for a champ with low sticking power, as well as a 200 burst every time you do get in range for an E, you can't compare it to hydra which is only good for the active just after you ult.
20% more attacks is an extra attack if you auto 5 times, you have some auto resets but its reasonable to assume you'll get at least 1 extra attack in the teamfight.


I don't think its reasonable at all. AA,E,Q,AA,E at basically no real point interacts with your attack timer. Even if you're using Q instantly you only interact with the attack timer once between E and the next AA. Every other auto attack timer is reset or extended due to ability charge.

You only get an extra auto attack if you get 4 more BC AA's after your combo, 3 more BC auto attacks if your Q is instant. (though its important to note that if your Q is instant you must wait on your E second E in order to get two spellblade procs). I think this is basally inconsequential. And if you're autoing that much you might as well start to figure E, passive, Q CD's too. You're getting pretty close and the target has to be dead by then(or you are)

I don't disagree with you that Hydra is not particularly good on Vi. But I do disagree with you on why. The problem is that you're applying the logic that says "Hydra is better than Trinity Force of Vi" in order to say "Trinity Force is better than BC". But applying the logic that says "BC is better than Trinity Force" to say "Trinity Force is better than Hydra".

Anyway, what about Deadman's Plate and Titanic Hydra? These seem quite interesting items on Vi. Especially if you're going to continue to build the very efficient hybrid tank items.

Warrior, BC, Deadmans's, Titanic, Maw is +55 armor, 40 MR, 400 HP Magic Shield, +190 AD, Armor shred, 20% CDR, an attack reset, bonus move speed, a discharge slow, and +1400 HP.
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-18 21:27:34
August 18 2015 21:26 GMT
#918
My problem with deadman's is that the movespeed it gives comes after 2750 gold and it isn't all that useful when you can get it since at that point you start teamfighting and generally that ms won't help you since you will get hit by slows/w.e.The slow is just 75% decaying for 1 sec on 1 target that is pretty fucking shitty compared to randuins.

Titanic doesn't seem good on vi either since you have enough aoe already anyway.Guess it might be good on a full tank vi over trinity though not sure on that one.
Frolossus
Profile Joined February 2010
United States4779 Posts
August 18 2015 21:26 GMT
#919
On August 19 2015 06:22 Goumindong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2015 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:
Trinity a lot of movement, which is good for a champ with low sticking power, as well as a 200 burst every time you do get in range for an E, you can't compare it to hydra which is only good for the active just after you ult.
20% more attacks is an extra attack if you auto 5 times, you have some auto resets but its reasonable to assume you'll get at least 1 extra attack in the teamfight.


I don't think its reasonable at all. AA,E,Q,AA,E at basically no real point interacts with your attack timer. Even if you're using Q instantly you only interact with the attack timer once between E and the next AA. Every other auto attack timer is reset or extended due to ability charge.

You only get an extra auto attack if you get 4 more BC AA's after your combo, 3 more BC auto attacks if your Q is instant. (though its important to note that if your Q is instant you must wait on your E second E in order to get two spellblade procs). I think this is basally inconsequential. And if you're autoing that much you might as well start to figure E, passive, Q CD's too. You're getting pretty close and the target has to be dead by then(or you are)

I don't disagree with you that Hydra is not particularly good on Vi. But I do disagree with you on why. The problem is that you're applying the logic that says "Hydra is better than Trinity Force of Vi" in order to say "Trinity Force is better than BC". But applying the logic that says "BC is better than Trinity Force" to say "Trinity Force is better than Hydra".

Anyway, what about Deadman's Plate and Titanic Hydra? These seem quite interesting items on Vi. Especially if you're going to continue to build the very efficient hybrid tank items.

Warrior, BC, Deadmans's, Titanic, Maw is +55 armor, 40 MR, 400 HP Magic Shield, +190 AD, Armor shred, 20% CDR, an attack reset, bonus move speed, a discharge slow, and +1400 HP.

deadman's plate is what i'm currently building in place of randuins atm
really strong on vi and hec
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23460 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-18 21:33:23
August 18 2015 21:32 GMT
#920
On August 19 2015 06:22 Goumindong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2015 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:
Trinity a lot of movement, which is good for a champ with low sticking power, as well as a 200 burst every time you do get in range for an E, you can't compare it to hydra which is only good for the active just after you ult.
20% more attacks is an extra attack if you auto 5 times, you have some auto resets but its reasonable to assume you'll get at least 1 extra attack in the teamfight.


I don't think its reasonable at all. AA,E,Q,AA,E at basically no real point interacts with your attack timer. Even if you're using Q instantly you only interact with the attack timer once between E and the next AA. Every other auto attack timer is reset or extended due to ability charge.

You only get an extra auto attack if you get 4 more BC AA's after your combo, 3 more BC auto attacks if your Q is instant. (though its important to note that if your Q is instant you must wait on your E second E in order to get two spellblade procs). I think this is basally inconsequential. And if you're autoing that much you might as well start to figure E, passive, Q CD's too. You're getting pretty close and the target has to be dead by then(or you are)

I don't disagree with you that Hydra is not particularly good on Vi. But I do disagree with you on why. The problem is that you're applying the logic that says "Hydra is better than Trinity Force of Vi" in order to say "Trinity Force is better than BC". But applying the logic that says "BC is better than Trinity Force" to say "Trinity Force is better than Hydra".


Well auto animation time speed up still counts, and I wasn't suggesting AA E Q AA E, I was thinking of a AA E AA (uses attack timer) use charged Q to gap close, AA EE AA (more AA or flash+AA with next sheen proc to finish)
If you can stick on a target long enough to combo like that I guess its more ideal, but that assumes you don't get CC'd or the guy doesn't use an escape skill.

Hydra doesn't even provide more burst than trinity. I'm not really making any logical contradictions, trinity is better than BC for similar reasons that its better than hydra. hydra and bc both give more flat damage and are cheaper and give "comparable burst"
BC+pickaxe+longsword is pretty damn close to hydra+giants belt.
aka Teutonica
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