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On August 19 2015 00:31 739 wrote:
I remember reddit whining and complaining about lack of bans in competetive games and now, where a thread appears on front page, saying Riot is considering an option to add more bans, people are most against it.
Screw reddit logic, srsly.
I think it comes down to being against 10 bans. I currently don't play a lot of Riven, but I'm looking to get back to it when the server moves and it would suck if I rarely ever got to play her because Mr. HowIBuildArmor? got dumped on.
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
On August 19 2015 00:34 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 00:31 739 wrote:
I remember reddit whining and complaining about lack of bans in competetive games and now, where a thread appears on front page, saying Riot is considering an option to add more bans, people are most against it.
Screw reddit logic, srsly. I think it comes down to being against 10 bans. I currently don't play a lot of Riven, but I'm looking to get back to it when the server moves and it would suck if I rarely ever got to play her because Mr. HowIBuildArmor? got dumped on.
It's said that it doesn't have to be the same in competetive as in ranked queues. Maybe they can leave out 6 bans in ranked games and add 2 more bans into competetive.
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I think there's a good argument to be made that having 10 bans for solo queue is stupid.
The point of increasing the complexity of the draft format is to increase the strategy of the ban phase, and make good draft phases a bigger deal in comparison to bad drafts.
There is already a little bit of strategy in the current League ban phase for pro games, but it's easy to argue that there isn't enough.
For solo queue though there's no strategy. You either ban what you think is OP or you ban what you hate, and that's the end of it. Once things are banned, you rarely change what you're going to play because of the bans. You decided what to play before you entered the queue, the only way you change that is if the thing you were going to play gets banned. So having more bans just means fewer champions get played.
That's why I think that ideally I'd like a simple ban phase for solo queue and a complicated ban phase for ranked 5's.
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On August 19 2015 00:34 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 00:31 nafta wrote:On August 19 2015 00:27 Ketara wrote:
We could put statistics in it like percentage of heroes used in TI vs. percentage of champions used in League, etc.
Is there a way to get statistics on how often pros get banned out of their signature champion in League vs. DotA?
Are signature champions even a thing in League anymore? It's been a long time since I've remembered somebody having some specific thing that nobody else plays banned out like Froggen Anivia or whatever. I guess draven is one of the champs that often gets banned just because of said mains but pretty rare otherwise.Generally "signature" champs are just really good performance on current meta champs. I guess you'd need to look at what is banned against what teams, and see if there is a champion that is consistently banned against a certain team, and is not banned against other teams. I'm pretty sure that would be a lot of work and end up with the result of "This hasn't actually happened since seasons 2/3" though.
There is it is just insanely rare.Most pros are just forced to learn standart when they get there.There are people who do weird shit like vici/kikis(uol) but they are actually not that good on said champs.
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On August 19 2015 00:42 Numy wrote:
Can you imagine TL's draft phase if it was more complex? L O L.
I think this goes for any Western team.
This is current upvoted Reddit post on subject, I really don't think it's true though. They also probably don't know what Jugger'Maw actually is 
![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/jFRjH/dcfb64d53f.png)
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On August 19 2015 00:17 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2015 00:10 Seuss wrote:It's splitting hairs mostly because it dances around the #1 problem facing any attempt to math out the value Liandry's. Current Health effects are a pain in the butt to theorycraft. If you really want to exercise the patience required it's best to just take a Lux VoD with Liandry's and straight up measure the tick damage done, then calculate/estimate how much damage the extra AP/whatever from a different item would have yielded. It won't be perfect (items like Lich Bane or Hourglass modify plays), but it'll be easier to judge and more approachable than 10 digit decimals. On August 19 2015 00:08 Ketara wrote:
OH MY GOD.
Gahlo has delivered unto me a wonderful spreadsheet, that will allow me to compare Liandry's vs. some other item against a target with specific MR, and then state how much HP the target has to have for Liandry's to outdamage the other item.
THANK YOU GAHLO, YOU ARE AN CHAMPION. I'm curious what scenario the spreadsheet is assuming. I'm not assuming any scenario. It's like this. If I have a void staff against a 30 MR target, my spell will do X damage. Lets say X is 100. If I have a Liandry against a 30 MR target, my spell will do Y damage + Z burn damage. Lets say Y is 90 and Z is 20. This will tell you which is doing more damage. But then you have to make a judgement call because the Liandry's burn damage is not really as valuable per point as normal damage is, because it can't kill people, and can be reduced by a host of factors such as other people hitting them or their allies / regen saving the day because it's delayed, blah blah blah. So in this particular case, one might decide that 100 is still better than 90+20. But 100 is probably not better than 90+50. When doing this kind of comparison, the X and the Y are pretty easy to just math out on a windows calculator. The Z is not, it's convoluted and complicated and takes way too much time if you want to do it for a lot of different enemy stat values. Gahlos wonderful, WONDERFUL spreadsheet will calculate the Z for me, and then I can actually do the comparison 
I threw together my own rough spreadsheet and my results seem like common sense. It basically boils down to:- If you're bursting a target down, Void Staff is better except in the early game when no one has built MR yet.
- If you're poking a lot, Liandry's is better.
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
Welcome to reddit?
Also, if competetive games had 10 bans, you could possibly ban the whole pool of ADC's or meta-supports. Damn, shit would require pretty non-standard picks, would be fun if you ask me.
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On August 19 2015 00:45 739 wrote:Welcome to reddit? Also, if competetive games had 10 bans, you could possibly ban the whole pool of ADC's or meta-supports. Damn, shit would require pretty non-standard picks, would be fun if you ask me.
You can't do either actually.I mean sure you could ban the meta but then people are just gonna pick the shittier versions.
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Technically, he's not that wrong. Until very recently, Riot has designed in a very focused manner and whenever a champ happens to show up elsewhere (like tank Ekko) it's them having overlooked it over them leaving possibilities up in the air.
Champs played in multiple role or where they weren't intended to begin with (Annie support over solo laning) are often either from very early in the game, or pretty recent additions.
A bunch of DotA's carries are closer to Irelia or Varus than to Master Yi in terms of kit.
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On August 19 2015 00:52 Alaric wrote:Technically, he's not that wrong. Until very recently, Riot has designed in a very focused manner and whenever a champ happens to show up elsewhere (like tank Ekko) it's them having overlooked it over them leaving possibilities up in the air. Champs played in multiple role or where they weren't intended to begin with (Annie support over solo laning) are often either from very early in the game, or pretty recent additions. A bunch of DotA's carries are closer to Irelia or Varus than to Master Yi in terms of kit.
He is completely wrong. Just look at the drafting throughout TI5. People weren't first picking heroes that they could flex as support or carry. They were picking strong heroes that fit into multiple lineups without giving away your overall strategy. LoL attempts to do the exact same now but without reactive/protective bans it's very much a guessing game. There's also no ability to protect niche strats that can be strong if not countered but are typically countered very easily.
Also his examples are completely ass. Skywrath is only ever played as a support and CK is only ever played as a core. Pubs don't matter as you can play whatever the fuck you want. The only "flex" picks you see are Lina/ES but that's more about the team and in the case of ES he still has the exact same role if he's playing offlane instead of hard support.
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He is wrong, because his post is operating under the assumption that Captains Mode reduces champion diversity which is blatantly not true. It increases it.
Which is why Yango needs to write a letter.
THIS IS YOUR MOMENT YANGO. DON'T LOSE YOUR WAY.
+ Show Spoiler +
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This whole thing is like one of those Thorin talks to himself segments.
Rioter #1: Our fans are too stupid to have DOTA bans.
Fans: Outrage! Rabble rabble.
Riot#2: You can't call fans dumb.
Riot#1: Did I say dumb? I meant they are too smart to want such a dumb feature (thinks to himself "nice save"). Pay no attention to such nonsense, look at this excellent new cheerleader Ahri skin...
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I like how someone edited out the rap.
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solo queue definitely needs 10 bans at this point, if not just for clarity, consistency, and fairness.
It should have been implemented the moment they made draft order in ranked random instead of ranked based.
Its absolutely asinine that a diamond 3 can control the bans in an otherwise diamond 1 game where the 2 metas are significantly different and there's a few champs you NEED to ban if you dont want to immediately lose barring huge skill differential.
At least this way it would give teams something to all do in champ select instead of sit there and rage at eachother and whatnot. 10 bans has been long overdue.
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As someone who plays at that elo I can't tell the difference between d3 to master.It is basically the same players depending on who is tilting.
The only problem is that select is gonna be even longer with all the dodges gonna be a bitch.Even if you had 20 bans people would still whine and bitch don't think that matters at all.
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On August 19 2015 01:12 nafta wrote:
As someone who plays at that elo I can't tell the difference between d3 to master.It is basically the same players depending on who is tilting.
The only problem is that select is gonna be even longer with all the dodges gonna be a bitch.Even if you had 20 bans people would still whine and bitch don't think that matters at all.
the play is the same,
the amount of one trick ponies however is vastly different. Rengar, fizz, riven are some good examples. If you don't take care of these picks and say you have like 1 player playing an off role the game immediately ends in 20 minutes and wastes everyone's time. There are a few others but those are probably the most common
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No reason to change solo q, hell I'd just remove bans honestly. Making it seem like comp play while having zero elements of comp play has always bothered me lol. I do get that this will prob be a bad idea though
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On August 19 2015 01:16 Numy wrote:
No reason to change solo q, hell I'd just remove bans honestly. Making it seem like comp play while having zero elements of comp play has always bothered me lol. I do get that this will prob be a bad idea though
lol ever seen high elo blind pick? yea i would quit immediately if that happened.
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On August 18 2015 22:26 Sufficiency wrote:
BC build with Vi is really strong.
BC builds don't make a lot of sense on paper, but the reality is that Vi wants CDR for more R and quicker Q (more Q -> stickier in teamfight). It also gives her a smoother power - Phage and Kindlegem are immediately useful, whereas Zeal and Sheen are pretty meh in comparison (especially when you have no CDR).
BC is also the preferred build for XJ9, in case that means anything.
botrk to bc is
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EPT
