EPTThanks though!
[Patch 5.15] Fiora Remake General Discussion - Page 41
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Reminder the PBE thread has been revived - please take PBE discussion there, thanks! http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/491813-pbe-515-juggernaughts-general-discussion | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Thanks though! | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2602 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On August 18 2015 13:46 Ketara wrote: Seems like a lot of this conversation could be solved by posting math. Well Teut is completely right. It doesn't really matter what is the most mathematically optimal build as this is a team game at the end of the day. You need to balance your maths with good assumptions first because any of it becomes applicable. That's why theorycrafting/mathcrafting in a vacuum doesn't really offer much insight into the game. It's a bit sad that people seem to think building a set of equations is the most important part of theorycrafting when that's the simplest part. The real challenge is describing your system in such a way as your set of equations actually have meaning on an average game. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35130 Posts
On August 18 2015 19:45 Ketara wrote: That's not helpful Gobbledydook, I already knew that. Thanks though! Hit my inbox with your email and I'll send you a spreadsheet. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35130 Posts
On August 18 2015 17:06 Alaric wrote: I wouldn't get BC if I'm playing Vi and there's a Riven, on the contrary I'll tell Riven to get it. Vi dives in and Q needs targets to be stacked to hit several at a time, E is a cone starting behind the primary target rather than in front of Vi, whereas Riven goes through the fight, has Pb-AoE abilities galore, and if someone has to spend some time with the frontline to apply the debuff her immunity to slows, spammable shield, sustain, and incidental AoE make her a much better user for it. If you're asking Vi to sit there and auto a tank 2-3 times so you can damage it more then you're gonna have an issue with your teamfight. If a Riven player isn't playing against a tank in lane, they most likely don't want to buy a BC. Not only that, but a Riven that goes through a fight is probably going to get cc'd and blown up by half decent opponents. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2602 Posts
Lux damage spreadsheet with everything I can think of. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35130 Posts
e. I didn't take into account the MR pen from Sorc/Liandry, so assume the MR figures are 30 higher than listed. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2602 Posts
On August 18 2015 20:47 Gahlo wrote: Sent. Let me know if you need it reformated away from xml. e. I didn't take into account the MR pen from Sorc/Liandry, so assume the MR figures are 30 higher than listed. Mine accounts the Mpen from sorcs/liandrys, abyssal, and is a google spreadsheet! Oh wait, runes and masteries aren't accounted for yet. I'll put in inputs for custom %mpen/flat mpen. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35130 Posts
On August 18 2015 20:49 gobbledydook wrote: Mine accounts the Mpen from sorcs/liandrys, abyssal, and is a google spreadsheet! Yeah, but mine is for Liandry in general.  | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Gahlo emailed me something that's pretty close to what I need. <3 you guys. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2602 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35130 Posts
On August 18 2015 20:51 Ketara wrote: Thanks Gobbledydook, but that's not quite what I was asking for. I appreciate the effort though! Gahlo emailed me something that's pretty close to what I need. <3 you guys. Remember that E triggers 4% too since 3.8. The League wiki doesn't seem to list the .25sec slow that's applied when you pop it. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
It ticks once each half second for 1% current HP (with the first tick being instant) and calculates a new damage number with each tick. So it's actually 5.8519850599% current HP damage total, not 6%. On Lux this is how much it would do for her R and her passive autos. The extra damage from Lux E slow only counts for the first tick, so for that it would do 6.8029751098%, while for Q it would do 9.5986966384% since the damage would be doubled for 4 of the 6 ticks. You see why I want a spreadsheet. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
I usually advocate it as a Zhonya replacement on very safe champs, Rylai champs and Karthus. The only times I tried out Liandry's on Lux in an ARAM, it was pretty good, but it's also poke-heavy and safe so just about every can/should go Liandry. 5.16 will be interesting for items but especially for Tforce melees. Sterak's adds base AD, making Tforce procs stronger, up to 100% base AD stronger during the buff. Base 500 health, being pretty cheap, and giving a large shield (~600 for optimal use with just those two items, likely more like 300 or so with the decay rate) means, yeah, I'll probably go Tforce into Sterak's on Vi. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
But feelings are not good enough for the Lux guide. We want proof  .Also there are other questions, like vs what MR value does Athenes + Liandry outdamage Athenes + Void, or are there enemy stat levels where Liandry outdamage Ludens, etc. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On August 18 2015 12:01 Caiada wrote: I don't give a shit about soloq arguing; I care about what's actually mathematically good. If you're Vi, tell your shitty support to get an Aegis. Nice of you to talk about math in the same statement as telling to buy an inferior support item for himself so you can build what you feel like building. On August 18 2015 12:01 Caiada wrote: CDR is the best sustained damage stat in the game for every caster, AD or AP, almost regardless of champion (Ryze and Cass screwing up my generalizations...) Almost every fight lasts more than 6 seconds. This doesn't apply to vi is an auto attack champion, most of your damage won't be coming from just Q and E aside from your initial burst. All this is saying is that maw of malmortius is a really good item if you count the 400 magic shield as hp. There's no reason you can't go trinity+maw instead of trinity+locket. Suddenly the comparison is back to 150 hp and some more gold vs having shitty burst. On August 18 2015 12:01 Caiada wrote: First, Maw is a really good item and against any AP mid, the 400hp shield is health that is up for basically every fight. I could probably agree with this statement though. I think I'd still go Cleaver with an AD mid vs two or more tanks, probably other common scenarios I'm too lazy to write out. Riven top games, Jinx/Cait/Ez games. The shield isn't "up for basically every fight" it's only up if the AP tries to kill you instead of the adc who is the normal clean up low hp people person. Please don't use "mathematical best" in place of "theorycraft optimal situation if everything goes the way I want and I ignore any other factors" | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On August 18 2015 21:28 Caiada wrote: Find me a video of a Vi or a top against two AP champs never getting hit by those AP champs, and I'll show you a situation that never fucking happens. Also, it's a 90s CD. Remember how fights don't happen every 90 seconds? 1: Maw doesn't proc when you get hit by an ap champ, it procs when you get hit by an ap champ below 30% hp, 2: The shield only works against MAGIC damage while below 30% hp, so it won't provide its full value if you aren't getting finished off by an AP. Yes if you are assassinating their ADC then it's probably the most cost effective item in the game, would go well with an item good for killing adcs. Hue. "BC is better for sustained damage" We can ignore the fact that trinity as+crit is much better than 10 AD because the extra cost of trinity and cdr of bc for more e/q can make up for that. But trinity adds best case 100 DPS, BC adds best case full stack 20% increased physical damage on a 100 armour target (about 30% on tanks but thats if you have all 6 stacks on). This means you need to be doing more 500DPS out pace the trinity proc, thats on a BC stacked target. In any situation where you don't full stack BC (read: pretty much all of them), the situation looks far worse. Granted you can't always get an ability every 2 seconds, but you won't be attacking a target for a long time on Vi anyway, so trinity is just stronger then. Here's a parse situation for the burst case. Level 13 Vi, 170 AD, 100 base AD, Warrior+No offensive item+Warrior+BCvsWarrior+Trinity To simplify we'll ignore flat armourpen and keep to rounded numbers. I'll use a R auto E auto q auto E combo which is auto heavy and full charge q favouring BC a bit but 50 armour target which favours trinity a bit. Start with a 50 armour target, 2k hp 1:Just warrior -Ult 398 damage -Auto E Auto 170+260+170 600 damage ~1000 damage/1.5= 667 mitigated damage -Denting blows hits, 12% max hp, 240 damage -Q does 412 damage, auto 170, E 260, 842 damage 842/1.4 =601 mitigated damage Total: 1268 mitigated damage 2: With black cleaver, 210 AD -Ult 454/1.5= 303 damage -Auto: 210/1.475=142 damage -E: 246.5/1.45=170 damage -Auto: 210/1.425=147 damage -Denting blows: 13%=260/1.4=186 damage Q: 476/1.32=360 damage auto: 210/1.31=160 damage E: 246.5/1.28=192 damage Total: 1660 damage, 31% increase 3: With trinity force, 200 AD: Ult: 440/1.5=293 damage Auto: 200+200/1.5=267 damage E: 256 damage (counting ap ratio) 256/1.5=170 damage Auto: 200/1.5=133 damage Denting blows: 13% 260/1.5=173 Q: 460/1.4= 329 damage auto: 200/1.4=143 damage E: 256+200/1.4=326 damage 1843 damage add extra auto and avg crit for attack speed/crit from trinity (5 attacks, 10% --> 200/2 approx 100 damage more) 300 more damage 300/1.45=~206 damage You can say this is unfair but 30% attack speed over a 5 auto duration is signifcant enough, it will work more like crit where sometimes it'll give you extra auto attack and sometimes it won't, but with the extra move speed its even more likely to give you an extra auto Total: 1843/2050 damage, 45%/62% increase over base, 11%/23% over BC Lethality: Warrior Vi leaves the target with 732 hp Warrior+BC Vi leaves target with 340 hp Warrior+Trinity kills target with crit and leaves target with 20 hp without crit (chilling smite kill range) without a crit. Also a heal for 275 would save target but a consequent flash+auto with sheen would do 285 damage enough to finish target. I quickly checked, but if you want to do the math yourself, you need warrior+BC+BF sword roughly to come close to the 2050 damage number that trinity gets. [b] TL;DR BC adds about 400 damage to your full burst combo, Trinity adds ~800 depending on RNG. Trinity also much better for sustained damage. Trinity Vi can just barely kill a 2k hp 50 armour target without heal using chilling smite or with a crit. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
BC builds don't make a lot of sense on paper, but the reality is that Vi wants CDR for more R and quicker Q (more Q -> stickier in teamfight). It also gives her a smoother power - Phage and Kindlegem are immediately useful, whereas Zeal and Sheen are pretty meh in comparison (especially when you have no CDR). BC is also the preferred build for XJ9, in case that means anything. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I'm not sure why BC having CDR is such a big deal anyway? Can't you max CDR from other sources? Or are we talking a 2 item only Vi? | ||
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