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On August 18 2015 15:13 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 13:46 Ketara wrote:
Seems like a lot of this conversation could be solved by posting math. I did some cursory math but didn't bouer posting it since it doesn't really solve the conflict. The result was basically that over the course of a fight BC will only outperform Trinity if one of he following is true A) the fight lasts long enough to get a second set of abilities off wherein the damage becomes pretty close (flipping depending on where in the combo set you're at) B) you only get one triforce proc off for your combo rather than two procs wherein BC will generally do more damage after a full combo C) The target has a lot of armor. If you're conderhulk the breakpoints are further as the %shred on BC magnifies the power of warriors flat pen and damage.
Sounds to me more like the math might not be in favor of your argument so you didn't bother posting it.
Why don't you post it and work from there. Teutonica may be a racist Euro, but he's a reasonable guy. He will read your math and if it proves him wrong I think he'll admit it.
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I wouldn't get BC if I'm playing Vi and there's a Riven, on the contrary I'll tell Riven to get it. Vi dives in and Q needs targets to be stacked to hit several at a time, E is a cone starting behind the primary target rather than in front of Vi, whereas Riven goes through the fight, has Pb-AoE abilities galore, and if someone has to spend some time with the frontline to apply the debuff her immunity to slows, spammable shield, sustain, and incidental AoE make her a much better user for it.
If you're asking Vi to sit there and auto a tank 2-3 times so you can damage it more then you're gonna have an issue with your teamfight.
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I hear a lot that a support has to get sightstone. If you just get the green trinket upgrade, isn't sightstone unnecessary? Allowing someone else to get red trinkets?
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People always have alot of uninformed opinions on what are "must buys" for certain roles/champs. They should be ridiculed and ignored until popular opinion catches up to reality.
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On August 18 2015 17:08 obesechicken13 wrote:
I hear a lot that a support has to get sightstone. If you just get the green trinket upgrade, isn't sightstone unnecessary? Allowing someone else to get red trinkets?
If this is a real question: the answer is that you need the sight stone because the team needs someone to move the vision from one part of the map to another. Trinket gives you 3 wards on the map all right, but sigh stone allows you to cover a whole area pretty fast and when this area is no longer interesting you can cover another.
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On August 18 2015 17:08 obesechicken13 wrote:
I hear a lot that a support has to get sightstone. If you just get the green trinket upgrade, isn't sightstone unnecessary? Allowing someone else to get red trinkets?
I think the easiest way to think about this is that as the game progresses the type of warding you need changes. In the early and part of the mid game you just sort of want whatever vision you can get on the map. Tracking the jungler and laner roams is the primary concern. Once the laning phase is over you don't need as many wards peppered all over the map and rather need to spam wards around whatever objectives you are pressuring. At this point red trinkets and sight stones reign supreme.
It is also worth noting that if you do not go sightstone in solo queue when you support then team morale will take a HUGE hit. You will lose a lot of otherwise winnable games to "no sighstone FF@20" so I would experiment with it in normals if you are still not convinced.
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On August 18 2015 16:15 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 15:13 Goumindong wrote:On August 18 2015 13:46 Ketara wrote:
Seems like a lot of this conversation could be solved by posting math. I did some cursory math but didn't bouer posting it since it doesn't really solve the conflict. The result was basically that over the course of a fight BC will only outperform Trinity if one of he following is true A) the fight lasts long enough to get a second set of abilities off wherein the damage becomes pretty close (flipping depending on where in the combo set you're at) B) you only get one triforce proc off for your combo rather than two procs wherein BC will generally do more damage after a full combo C) The target has a lot of armor. If you're conderhulk the breakpoints are further as the %shred on BC magnifies the power of warriors flat pen and damage. Sounds to me more like the math might not be in favor of your argument so you didn't bother posting it. Why don't you post it and work from there. Teutonica may be a racist Euro, but he's a reasonable guy. He will read your math and if it proves him wrong I think he'll admit it.
I can maybe redo it tomorrow. It was cursory and not saved. But again it doesn't "prove" anything. No one is contesting that triforce has more burst. Just that triforce burst isn't necessary and has a lot of build up compared to BC. I don't think teut was contesting that over a long fight BC should do similar damage as triforce just that fights should not ever last that long.
The question is more on the value of the tank stats and the CDR and gold. I can't math out how much DPS getting your aegis 700 gold faster is or how much DPS getting your ult up 16 seconds faster is. Well I mean I could; but it's ust useless numbers or pointless proclamations about how you lost the game because you were 700 gold short of your argis so your AD died. Or how you did super shit damage and died because you still had sheen or how clearly BC does more damage because the triforce user doesn't have their ult.
And saying that you get a second q 1.6 seconds faster and a third and fourth e 1.6 seconds faster doesn't mean anyhing unless the fights end in that space so it should be obvious that once you get ther BC out damages triforce for at least 1.6 seconds. Since a single q and e will do more raw damage that two triforce procs and the target will be shredded.
Edit: Also Aegis isn't that great on Vi. She probably should go Maw. Just because if she is ultimg the back line she won't be in range to utilize the aura and the last thing you want to be doing is auto attacking their tank with triforce.
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Pretty sure he was sarcastically responding to Alarics post.
@Gou, you can absolutely math how much DPS getting your ult up 16 seconds faster is. You can also math the efficiency and value of tank stats.
You're usually so numbers focused, I'm not sure why you aren't this time.
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Thing is, getting your ult up faster isn't a matter of dps, but of opportunities (when Viktor, Annie and Kennen had flat 120s on their ults it hampered them the same way Amumu won't necessarily want to commit ult 90s before a dragon respawn while Leona won't care).
Early CDR's important on Vi because Riot smashed her level 1 ult's cd (to the point I'd rather take 2 camps first and hit level 11 than gank immediatly unless it's something like a dive we see coming and needs attention right now), although even before that it was pretty nice for her Q. Later on it's a bit more bearable (still longer than most mages till level 16).
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DPS is in general a somewhat worthless figure in League because fights don't last long enough for "DPS" to matter. If you're an ADC or a Mage with really low cooldowns like Cassiopeia it matters more, but in general it's not a figure that gives an accurate representation of all that much.
But that doesn't mean it's a completely worthless figure. It's still something I look at when I compare builds, it's just not a particularly large factor in the overall comparison.
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On August 18 2015 17:49 Ketara wrote:
Pretty sure he was sarcastically responding to Alarics post.
@Gou, you can absolutely math how much DPS getting your ult up 16 seconds faster is. You can also math the efficiency and value of tank stats.
You're usually so numbers focused, I'm not sure why you aren't this time.
Uhh no you can't. You don't fight ~96 second long fights. It's a worthless number unless we just decree that the BC user has the ult and the triforce user doesn't in which case the BC user shits all over the triforce user because a single ult does more damage than the triforce procs will ever do. (Plus the other intangibles of the ult)
What the CDR lets you do is make tighter timing plays on enemy lanes and let's you fight more skirmishes that aren't handed to you directly, very valuable as a jungler.
And similarly you can't math out the efficiency of tank stats relative to damage in a coherent way since that is so dependent on team composition and fight type. You aren't 1v1 mathing or DPS maxing or Combo maxing or tank maxing. Those things are easy. You can look at the gold value but that requires you to assign a value to the sheen proc. and lots of other things that mean basically nothing and also assumes that the gold values of stats are in a proper proportion.
Maybe you know a way to math that out to produce numbers that aren't nonesence but I dont. I don't even know a way to counter reverse causation in item selection empirics. (Know any good instrumental variables?) so we can't even use that to "settle" the argument.
Edit: maybe this will make sense. The only way this argument would be settled on numbers was if
A) BC did more damage than triforce regardless of the circumstances
B) Triforce has 20% CDR and 400 health on it
Since neither of those things are true math will not settle the argument.
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@Gou:
You're right, you never fight 96 second long fights, so in that case the amount of extra DPS CDR adds to Vi's ult is zero. See, you just mathed it!
In other news.
I'm trying to do some Liandry math for the Lux guide, and I hate that item with the burning passion of a thousand suns.
Does anybody know of, or could possibly make for me, a spreadsheet of how much damage the burn will do at different target HP and MR levels?
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
about kiting red buff as eve (I think that was the question), unfortunately I dont have league installed here but
as blue side ideally coming from the top side towards red you skirt the edge really close and fire off your Q when the red buff is in sight but the small guy isnt, that makes the red always go straight towards you and then you pull him towards top left. From there it can get finnicky because the red buff can randomly choose to do a semi circle during his soft reset so you gotta react but thats the general idea.
red buff side is a lot easier you ust come in, Q the small guy+red buff and pull it towards bottom right. I find red side to be a lot easier and more consistent (in its execution, you can always pull red buff in some beneficial way as eve)
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On August 18 2015 17:24 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 17:08 obesechicken13 wrote:
I hear a lot that a support has to get sightstone. If you just get the green trinket upgrade, isn't sightstone unnecessary? Allowing someone else to get red trinkets? edit: also a point I forgot to mention is that going green trinket upgrade will ultimately be inefficient because you are forced to make the following decisions: -get sightstone pre level 9, sell sightstone when you get green trinket upgrade -> dumb cause the whole point is not to buy a sightstone in first place -rely on bought green wards pre level 9 -> sacrifices so much early vision unless you're buying the same amount of wards which is ridiculously inefficient compared to buying a sightstone (~10 wards = sightstone) -no sightstone, get green trinket upgrade at level 9 -> no wards lol and unless you're sitting in lane 24/7 and not roaming at all (which is terrible support play) you won't be level 9 until like past 15 minutes anyways so you're either A) wasting money on buying wards instead of using sightstone charges B) losing in vision control for the entirety of 15+ minutes.
You also get extra HP from the sightstone which you miss out on if you just go for just wards, making it even more inefficient. It may not be much HP by lategame but early game it is quite useful. Especially on some champs (e.g. Braum, Nautilus) that's even more beneficial.
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Stop trolling. No one suggested that CDR increased the DPS of Vis ult. Only that the CDR has value because getting your ult up faster has value.
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I should learn how to use Excel so I can make spreadsheets like this.
Dear Riot.
Change Liandry's or add Sandbox Mode. ONE OF THE TWO PLX.
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On August 18 2015 18:32 Ketara wrote:
I should learn how to use Excel so I can make spreadsheets like this.
Dear Riot.
Change Liandry's or add Sandbox Mode. ONE OF THE TWO PLX.
Are you trying to figure out where to put it in the build or whether or not to put it in the build?
As a last item I don't see anything coming close to its combo damage. Pen is supreme once you have cap and void and ludens. Since there are no 120 AP items to buy anymore and it has 80 AP now nothing will come close, not even counting the burn.
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I'm trying to find a spreadsheet of how much damage the burn does at different target MR/HP values, so I can place an approximate damage value on the burn, so that I can actually assess how good it is as a damage item compared to other damage items.
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On August 18 2015 18:17 Ketara wrote:
@Gou:
You're right, you never fight 96 second long fights, so in that case the amount of extra DPS CDR adds to Vi's ult is zero. See, you just mathed it!
In other news.
I'm trying to do some Liandry math for the Lux guide, and I hate that item with the burning passion of a thousand suns.
Does anybody know of, or could possibly make for me, a spreadsheet of how much damage the burn will do at different target HP and MR levels?
It does 2% enemy current hp as magic damage per second, increasing to 4% if enemy is cc'ed
I would make a simplification here and assume that your burst as lux is instant so the liandrys only starts ticking after ur combo is done.
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EPT
