EPT[Patch 5.15] Fiora Remake General Discussion - Page 38
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Reminder the PBE thread has been revived - please take PBE discussion there, thanks! http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/491813-pbe-515-juggernaughts-general-discussion | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium5232 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On August 18 2015 07:43 GrandInquisitor wrote: I guess from my perspective, Triforce is complete overkill. As a Vi, your job is to assassinate a squishy. Do you need Triforce to do that? No, Warrior + BC is enough. So then BC offers you far more useful stats: teamwide armor shred, CDR, health, cheaper cost, etc. Plus it scales better into the late game. More generally I think on junglers you sometimes only need to build "enough" damage. It's like that Cinderhulk/BC/Mallet tank Yi build that was trendy a little while ago, that relied on the same principle: you do more damage if you build only the damage you need. That yi build has never been trendy.It is also awful. How do you assassinate someone with only warrior+bc?Most of the time as ad you can just turn on vi and kill her if she doesn't have triforce or is very ahead. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
On August 18 2015 07:43 kongoline wrote: is it possible on reksi ? i just started learning him and without strong leash im almost dead after 1st buff , feels weird being forced to b after 1 buff as a tier 1 jungle pick Oo Make sure you kite buffs at least slightly, burrow between camps and fully utilize both your burrowed and unborrowed q. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On August 18 2015 07:43 GrandInquisitor wrote: I guess from my perspective, Triforce is complete overkill. As a Vi, your job is to assassinate a squishy. Do you need Triforce to do that? No, Warrior + BC is enough. So then BC offers you far more useful stats: teamwide armor shred, CDR, health, cheaper cost, etc. Plus it scales better into the late game. You are just dead wrong here. There is an 700 gold difference in cost. That's far from "overkill". Trinity force is demonstrably superior for assassinating squishies. The initial ms is better for getting in range, and 2x sheen proc for 400+ damage far outweighs 10 ad and 5% armour shred of whatever . BC doesn't give you more useful stats because most of the stats aren't as effective at assassinating squishies as trinity is. Getting cdr and stacking armour shred barely matters if you are just going to ult in, auto E and then Q auto E for a kill. It doesn't "scale better into lategame" unless you are focusing tanks which you just said you weren't. The overkill argument is just stupid. Saying "Trinity is overkill, go full tank after warrior" you can argue, but when you're buying an item to burst squishies and not buying the best item for doing that and saying "lol 700 gold too expensive, spend 3k gold on stats which I mostly won't use for assassinating" Saying your job is to assassinate to justify buying a team tank killing item is really shooting yourself in the foot. If you do kill the target the teamfight is probably over, or if it isn't, trinity is a lot better for cleaning up too with the extra damage. edit: The extra 10 AD on a full vi combo with 2 E's and 2 autos should give you about 50-60 base physical damage, plus some shred damage, all combined it's not even better than a single sheen proc. Getting 5% pen on an auto, 10% on an E, and 15% on a Q isn't going to make up even the first sheen proc of damage. Not even close. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
CDR is an amazingly underrated stat, somehow, still, even after 20% SV and now 20% FH being nerfed. It's not a coincidence. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On August 18 2015 08:16 Caiada wrote: Playing her as a one-trick assassination pony in every situation is, frankly, pure stubbornness, but no, you would not go BC to assassinate. Like... nobody but really dense people would argue Tforce is less burst damage than BC. You're building BC to start fights later and not die immediately, and also to make you and your team put out notably more sustained teamfight damage past mid-game. This is all conceptual fairy land speak. "Start fights later" What does this even mean? Not initiating with ult? Engaging with Q can be difficult because of the low range wind up and how easy it is to cc you during it. Even if you hit someone with Q having BC+Warrior being in front when they have a cinderhulk+randuins jungler doesn't sound smart. "Not die immediately" You can just build a tank item instead of BC? You're investing only 1k of defensive stats with BC on a 3k item, if you want to not die when you engage buy some tank items. "You and your team put out notably more sustained teamfight damage past mid game" First off vi doesn't do more sustained damage with BC over trinity, probably even against tanks. At any rate, count how many times you get autos off in late game teamfights with vi, and how many people actually benefit from your damage debuffs. Unless you are in the front line focusing tanks, which vi isn't good at, your adc is probably not benefiting at all from the bc stacks. If you have any replays or videos of your games I'd love to see you demonstrate how your vi player differs from "one-trick assassination pony" (What does this even mean? Having the ability to assassinate means thats all you can do?) | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
"Just build a tank item" is asinine. You're going full tank after either BC or Tforce regardless of which you choose. One is 700 more gold for 150 less health. That's ~40 of a resist of your choice, and a Ruby Crystal. You are squishier without those things. You're also less useful without 20% CDR and without a teamwide shred, regardless of how you think Vi 'should' be played. BC procs off Q and E casts; Tforce does not. BC is 1.6 seconds off Q cast and E charge. It's 16 seconds off Ult. More casts for her passive shield, and 15 more health per shield. If you think Tforce is better lategame, I really have absolutely no idea why. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On August 18 2015 08:31 Caiada wrote: Later as in past 25ish minutes when Trinity burst is not actually that cost-effective anymore compared to health and CDR. "Just build a tank item" is asinine. You're going full tank after either BC or Tforce regardless of which you choose. One is 700 more gold for 150 less health. That's ~40 of a resist of your choice, and a Ruby Crystal. You are squishier without those things. You're also less useful without 20% CDR and without a teamwide shred, regardless of how you think Vi 'should' be played. Trinity burst doesn't lose its cost effectiveness and if it does you need some way to prove this instead of just making a statement randomly. If you are hitting squishies it shouldn't decrease in value at all. It arguably increases in value because the carries are more important later on. It's not asinine. You are arguing that BC>Trinity because of tank stats. Then why build BC at all? Go full tank after warrior, instead of BC, since you are saying how important tank stats are. How does 20% cdr and the bc shred make you more useful than the trinity damage? Can you show this to me? Can you talk about any concrete situations that happen in real games where the cdr and armour shred is important but the extra damage isn't? You're less useful without any assassination potential regardless of how you think Vi 'should' be played. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On August 18 2015 08:32 krndandaman wrote: yeah and make sure you're going Q>W>E first 3 levels. I used to make the mistake of Q E W when I first started learning reksai so dunno if thats your issue too. also anyone know the best way to kite red buff? its weird as hell and seems to reset at the most randomest times. I was trying to do solo 6camp clear with evelynn in customs but I keep dying to the last gromp and I feel like I take the most damage at red/microing it the worst there. runes/masteries should be fine 21/9 standard stuff ad/ap runes with armor seals make sure q's hit multiple targets, focus down the little golem and little raptors first to take less damage, blahblah typical stuff. red just fucks me over. One trick you can do is spam Q's out of range of blue like a ranged champ to so you take less at blue. Try to trap blue between the little golems. The leashes have become finnicky. But I think it's the same with everyone, kite them to their max leash range, hit them a few times, and walk in range of them. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On August 18 2015 08:34 AlterKot wrote: Nowadays I have red or blue reset on me in at least half the games I need kiting tutorial man. They changed it so it can reset only 3 times, resetting buffs isn't really worth it any more, the gains are too small and the risk pretty large. It's better on ranged champs maybe but on melees you gain barely anything. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On August 18 2015 08:31 Caiada wrote: BC procs off Q and E casts; Tforce does not. BC is 1.6 seconds off Q cast and E charge. It's 16 seconds off Ult. More casts for her passive shield, and 15 more health per shield. If you think Tforce is better lategame, I really have absolutely no idea why. 1: Why are you comparing procs?? Trinity's proc is on a completely different level than BCs. I don't care if I can be shredding 15 armour when I can do 400 damage. 2: Trinity does proc on E as E works as on auto. 3: Ult CD doesn't matter much past the early and midgame since fights don't happen every 80 seconds. 4: Trinity force is better lategame for the same reason it's better midgame, you are a burst damage melee champ and as such you need some way to kill or pressure squishies in teamfights or they'll kill you. More casts for passive only applies after 8 seconds, and if you don't have a cd up after 8 seconds I guess it sucks but most teamfights are over after that 8 seconds anyway. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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kongoline
6318 Posts
On August 18 2015 08:38 Slayer91 wrote: Trinity burst doesn't lose its cost effectiveness and if it does you need some way to prove this instead of just making a statement randomly. If you are hitting squishies it shouldn't decrease in value at all. It arguably increases in value because the carries are more important later on. It's not asinine. You are arguing that BC>Trinity because of tank stats. Then why build BC at all? Go full tank after warrior, instead of BC, since you are saying how important tank stats are. How does 20% cdr and the bc shred make you more useful than the trinity damage? Can you show this to me? Can you talk about any concrete situations that happen in real games where the cdr and armour shred is important but the extra damage isn't? You're less useful without any assassination potential regardless of how you think Vi 'should' be played. you can test it easily in sandbox mode, oh wait .. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On August 18 2015 09:07 kongoline wrote: you can test it easily in sandbox mode, oh wait .. actually you can't wtf | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
Concrete situation? Crumbzz rushing Tforce on Vi in two back-to-back Dig games in his last season and blowing up instantly every time he ulted. New Cleaver unfortunately didn't exist at the time. One thing I will argue is the tank item thing though. That's a really stupidly simplistic view of items that leads to shit like people thinking Maw is an inefficient item. Two bruiser items is, in almost every case, a more efficient use of gold than a damage item and a tank item by design. Look at Cleaver/Maw's stats compared to Hydra/SV (generic examples) and it's really obvious which of the two spends the gold better if you're using any of the damage/CDR as a melee champ. | ||
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
On August 18 2015 09:16 krndandaman wrote: this one's extremely easy to do at red side but a bit harder on blueside. i haven't been able to do it consistently yet. but i don't think the others like scip rely on it for 6 camp clear It's not particularly helpful unless you're super close to dying, but you can loop red buff around it's alcove through the bushes pretty far if you just need kiting distance and not the leash distance. You can then kite it back, but again this has very limited usefulness. | ||
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