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On August 18 2015 09:18 Caiada wrote:
I'm probably overvaluing CDR on Vi. I just have no idea why you'd devote an entire item slot to something that's ridiculously expensive and decently risky unless you were already snowballing. In which case, yeah, rush Tforce and kill kids because its soloq and you'll win harder that way. Something I didn't really argue against in the first place.
Concrete situation? Crumbzz rushing Tforce on Vi in two back-to-back Dig games in his last season and blowing up instantly every time he ulted. New Cleaver unfortunately didn't exist at the time.
One thing I will argue is the tank item thing though. That's a really stupidly simplistic view of items that leads to shit like people thinking Maw is an inefficient item. Two bruiser items is, in almost every case, a more efficient use of gold than a damage item and a tank item by design. Look at Cleaver/Maw's stats compared to Hydra/SV (generic examples) and it's really obvious which of the two spends the gold better if you're using any of the damage/CDR as a melee champ.
Devoting an entire item slot?? To an item??
If crumbzz was blowing up instantly, I guess 150 hp +30 armour or whatever, that would totally win dignitas those fights right?
yea hybrid items are more efficient that dedicated items whats your point
doesn't mean you can't go randuins+locket and be a lot tankier than cleaver+maw and have a teamwide mr aura and 200 aoe shield.
or go trinity randuins and be a threat in teamfights
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Not to mention Vi is one of those champions where she has to build in vastly different manners when comparing soloq and competitive because unless you're an AP jungler you're a tanky initiate/ward bitch.
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I think meteos is the only one who pulled off vi well right? He got pretty farmed and played vi in a pick comp as well
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I think LGD just played a pretty good Vi. But they are rolling regardless.
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On August 18 2015 09:27 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 09:18 Caiada wrote:
I'm probably overvaluing CDR on Vi. I just have no idea why you'd devote an entire item slot to something that's ridiculously expensive and decently risky unless you were already snowballing. In which case, yeah, rush Tforce and kill kids because its soloq and you'll win harder that way. Something I didn't really argue against in the first place.
Concrete situation? Crumbzz rushing Tforce on Vi in two back-to-back Dig games in his last season and blowing up instantly every time he ulted. New Cleaver unfortunately didn't exist at the time.
One thing I will argue is the tank item thing though. That's a really stupidly simplistic view of items that leads to shit like people thinking Maw is an inefficient item. Two bruiser items is, in almost every case, a more efficient use of gold than a damage item and a tank item by design. Look at Cleaver/Maw's stats compared to Hydra/SV (generic examples) and it's really obvious which of the two spends the gold better if you're using any of the damage/CDR as a melee champ. Devoting an entire item slot?? To an item?? If crumbzz was blowing up instantly, I guess 150 hp +30 armour or whatever, that would totally win dignitas those fights right? yea hybrid items are more efficient that dedicated items whats your point doesn't mean you can't go randuins+locket and be a lot tankier than cleaver+maw and have a teamwide mr aura and 200 aoe shield. or go trinity randuins and be a threat in teamfights
Are you being obtuse? He said nothing about "devoting an entire item slot to an item". He said that its a better use for a bruiser to build more efficient items. For which Black Cleaver, being a hydrid tank/damage item, unequivocally is.
For instance if you spend 6503 for Triforce and Aegis you will have +840 HP[with active], +40 MR, +30 damage, and triforce proc equal to ~200-230 damage every 1 to 2 ability uses, and 10% CDR. If you go BC plus Maw you will have 800 HP, 40 MR, +100 damage, armor shred, and 20% CDR for 6200. Where Vi will do as much extra damage as a triforce proc in one or two abilities/auto attacks.
The fact of the matter is that BC+Maw/Randuin's makes you an all around team fight threat faster than Trinity+Randuins. It does so with fewer build holes. And it does so even if you're not snowballing hard
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This is a great example of why it took literally a season and a half after its buff for anyone to build Maw before 6th item. I mean, fuck, a majority of the West still doesn't. I wonder when we'll see a Sterak's.
You could probably justify Trinity for the burst. But that's honestly the only situation, and if you're behind, yeah, 1100g of extra defensive stats is a big deal. 2v1 fucking exists to deny tops 1100g of stats.
Edit: And practically nobody buys Liandry's either! I'm very salty about these inefficient item choices.
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the attack speed and ms is also pretty important on vi,i like trinity more but who knows i saw that xj9 guy build BC + botrk and it worked well for him
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On August 18 2015 10:03 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 09:27 Slayer91 wrote:On August 18 2015 09:18 Caiada wrote:
I'm probably overvaluing CDR on Vi. I just have no idea why you'd devote an entire item slot to something that's ridiculously expensive and decently risky unless you were already snowballing. In which case, yeah, rush Tforce and kill kids because its soloq and you'll win harder that way. Something I didn't really argue against in the first place.
Concrete situation? Crumbzz rushing Tforce on Vi in two back-to-back Dig games in his last season and blowing up instantly every time he ulted. New Cleaver unfortunately didn't exist at the time.
One thing I will argue is the tank item thing though. That's a really stupidly simplistic view of items that leads to shit like people thinking Maw is an inefficient item. Two bruiser items is, in almost every case, a more efficient use of gold than a damage item and a tank item by design. Look at Cleaver/Maw's stats compared to Hydra/SV (generic examples) and it's really obvious which of the two spends the gold better if you're using any of the damage/CDR as a melee champ. Devoting an entire item slot?? To an item?? If crumbzz was blowing up instantly, I guess 150 hp +30 armour or whatever, that would totally win dignitas those fights right? yea hybrid items are more efficient that dedicated items whats your point doesn't mean you can't go randuins+locket and be a lot tankier than cleaver+maw and have a teamwide mr aura and 200 aoe shield. or go trinity randuins and be a threat in teamfights Are you being obtuse? He said nothing about "devoting an entire item slot to an item". He said that its a better use for a bruiser to build more efficient items. For which Black Cleaver, being a hydrid tank/damage item, unequivocally is. For instance if you spend 6503 for Triforce and Aegis you will have +840 HP[with active], +40 MR, +30 damage, and triforce proc equal to ~200-230 damage every 1 to 2 ability uses, and 10% CDR. If you go BC plus Maw you will have 800 HP, 40 MR, +100 damage, armor shred, and 20% CDR for 6200. Where Vi will do as much extra damage as a triforce proc in one or two abilities/auto attacks. The fact of the matter is that BC+Maw/Randuin's makes you an all around team fight threat faster than Trinity+Randuins. It does so with fewer build holes. And it does so even if you're not snowballing hard
Please tell me you're joking. Triforce is bar none the single most effective offensive item on any bruiser type champion that can use Sheen effectively, like Vi can. That's not even taking into account that the difference in durability between the 2 is a Ruby Crystal. Surprise surprise, the hybrid item is the bare minimum of HP itemization tankier than one of the single best offensive items in the entire game. And yes, it's more expensive. But then you pair it up with Locket which is a) 400g cheaper than Maw and b) provides an aura that literally tilts the balance of the entire game. That's why Legion is getting nerfed next patch - but Locket will end up roughly the same since the Shield is getting an effective buff.
Vi's personal damage doesn't benefit as much from the armor reduction of BC because she gets a hefty chunk from her W.
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If you're on Vi, tell top/support to buy it. Banner's a contender for the best use of 3k gold in the game regardless of support, and Tforce delays Locket far more than is necessary. It's not great on Vi just like it's not great on Gnar. But bruiser is standard on Gnar so nobody questions it.
We could just say it's a worst case scenario and nobody on your team is going to buy it, but then you could justify an Aegis item on every champ in the game.
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On August 18 2015 10:03 Goumindong wrote:
Are you being obtuse? He said nothing about "devoting an entire item slot to an item". He said that its a better use for a bruiser to build more efficient items. For which Black Cleaver, being a hydrid tank/damage item, unequivocally is.
"I just have no idea why you'd devote an entire item slot to..."
He said exactly that?
Do you have anything to backup BC being somehow more efficient than trinity? And does a 150 health different really make an item become "Hybrid" as opposed to pure damage?
On August 18 2015 10:03 Goumindong wrote:
For instance if you spend 6503 for Triforce and Aegis you will have +840 HP[with active], +40 MR, +30 damage, and triforce proc equal to ~200-230 damage every 1 to 2 ability uses, and 10% CDR. If you go BC plus Maw you will have 800 HP, 40 MR, +100 damage, armor shred, and 20% CDR for 6200. Where Vi will do as much extra damage as a triforce proc in one or two abilities/auto attacks.
All this is saying is that maw of malmortius is a really good item if you count the 400 magic shield as hp. There's no reason you can't go trinity+maw instead of trinity+locket. Suddenly the comparison is back to 150 hp and some more gold vs having shitty burst.
On August 18 2015 10:03 Goumindong wrote:
The fact of the matter is that BC+Maw/Randuin's makes you an all around team fight threat faster than Trinity+Randuins. It does so with fewer build holes. And it does so even if you're not snowballing hard
Do you have anything to back up this statement? Because otherwise it's just bullshit.
I can pretty clearly envision why you want trinity. Better roaming around and skirmishes, (I doubt anyone disputes this) and in teamfights you R in, and if you don't get CC'd you auto E and try to chase with Q-->E or get out of the fight as much as you can with Q if you are being focused.
I can't see how having BC helps in this situation at all, and in skirmishes I prefer trinity.
On August 18 2015 11:02 Caiada wrote:
If you're on Vi, tell top/support to buy it. Banner's a contender for the best use of 3k gold in the game regardless of support, and Tforce delays Locket far more than is necessary. It's not great on Vi just like it's not great on Gnar. But bruiser is standard on Gnar so nobody questions it.
We could just say it's a worst case scenario and nobody on your team is going to buy it, but then you could justify an Aegis item on every champ in the game.
Top laners will say "tell jungle/support to buy it" and supports will tell you "get zekes tell jungle to buy locket"
someone has to sacrifice and in most practical games the jungle has to get it because the top laner needs to itemize for lane and the support has no gold so his locket will be late, and usually they want zekes or mikaels anyway.
On August 18 2015 10:15 Caiada wrote:
This is a great example of why it took literally a season and a half after its buff for anyone to build Maw before 6th item. I mean, fuck, a majority of the West still doesn't. I wonder when we'll see a Sterak's.
You could probably justify Trinity for the burst. But that's honestly the only situation, and if you're behind, yeah, 1100g of extra defensive stats is a big deal. 2v1 fucking exists to deny tops 1100g of stats.
Edit: And practically nobody buys Liandry's either! I'm very salty about these inefficient item choices.
The reason it takes ages for people to buy maw is because most tanks
a: don't build much damage anyway
b: worry mostly about physical damage
ADCs are also the clean up crew so if you're low hp it's more likely the adc will potshot you more than the ap uses precious cds in a critcal time in the fight.
2v1 exists for a lot more than denying tops, but if 1100 gold of defensive stats is so important then don't spend 2000g on offensive stats.
If you value your gold in offensive stats then trinity is the most cost efficient offensive item in the game (if you count the stats and sheen is 2400 gold).
You can't pick and choose. You can't say "You can spend 2000 gold on offensive stats but 3000 gold is too much",
You can't say "BC is more efficient, look at the stats and ignore all of trinitys stats!"
Also vi is a burst champ. There isn't a situation where you buy an offensive item "for the sustained damage".
And if you do, trinity is still better because of the attack speed and crit probably.
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United States37500 Posts
Guess it's time to play Vi this week.
My personal inclination is still Warrior's/Trinity into tanky. Vi doesn't auto enough in team fights to make use of Cleaver compared to some Top Lanes that Cleaver is very good on.
Building Cinderhulk on her also seems dumb for reasons previously stated. If you want to Cinderhulk, there are a handful of better picks to do so.
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I don't give a shit about soloq arguing; I care about what's actually mathematically good. If you're Vi, tell your shitty support to get an Aegis.
CDR is the best sustained damage stat in the game for every caster, AD or AP, almost regardless of champion (Ryze and Cass screwing up my generalizations...) Almost every fight lasts more than 6 seconds.
All this is saying is that maw of malmortius is a really good item if you count the 400 magic shield as hp. There's no reason you can't go trinity+maw instead of trinity+locket. Suddenly the comparison is back to 150 hp and some more gold vs having shitty burst.
First, Maw is a really good item and against any AP mid, the 400hp shield is health that is up for basically every fight. I could probably agree with this statement though.
I think I'd still go Cleaver with an AD mid vs two or more tanks, probably other common scenarios I'm too lazy to write out. Riven top games, Jinx/Cait/Ez games.
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On August 18 2015 11:48 NeoIllusions wrote:
Guess it's time to play Vi this week.
My personal inclination is still Warrior's/Trinity into tanky. Vi doesn't auto enough in team fights to make use of Cleaver compared to some Top Lanes that Cleaver is very good on..
Well her q, e, and ult are going to apply it in an AOE if you land them on multiple people. I auto quite frequently as cleanup crew, because there's still post burst to worry about. Triforce is great if the game stretches out long enough, but by the time you finish Triforce/Warrior/boots 2 you've likely made like half your income for the game depending on the pace.
I don't really feel like Cinderhulk vs Warrior is that cut and dry either. Warrior is obviously superior early, but the extra health from Cinderhulk helps survive burst quite well. If you've got Cinderhulk/Black Cleaver/Black Cleaver that's a lot of extra health over what Warrior/Triforce/Randuins would give.
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Seems like a lot of this conversation could be solved by posting math.
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On August 18 2015 13:46 Ketara wrote:
Seems like a lot of this conversation could be solved by posting math.
I did some cursory math but didn't bouer posting it since it doesn't really solve the conflict.
The result was basically that over the course of a fight BC will only outperform Trinity if one of he following is true
A) the fight lasts long enough to get a second set of abilities off wherein the damage becomes pretty close (flipping depending on where in the combo set you're at)
B) you only get one triforce proc off for your combo rather than two procs wherein BC will generally do more damage after a full combo
C) The target has a lot of armor.
If you're conderhulk the breakpoints are further as the %shred on BC magnifies the power of warriors flat pen and damage.
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On August 18 2015 09:16 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 08:39 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 18 2015 08:32 krndandaman wrote:On August 18 2015 07:53 AlterKot wrote:On August 18 2015 07:43 kongoline wrote:
is it possible on reksi ? i just started learning him and without strong leash im almost dead after 1st buff , feels weird being forced to b after 1 buff as a tier 1 jungle pick Oo Make sure you kite buffs at least slightly, burrow between camps and fully utilize both your burrowed and unborrowed q. yeah and make sure you're going Q>W>E first 3 levels. I used to make the mistake of Q E W when I first started learning reksai so dunno if thats your issue too. also anyone know the best way to kite red buff? its weird as hell and seems to reset at the most randomest times. I was trying to do solo 6camp clear with evelynn in customs but I keep dying to the last gromp and I feel like I take the most damage at red/microing it the worst there. runes/masteries should be fine 21/9 standard stuff ad/ap runes with armor seals make sure q's hit multiple targets, focus down the little golem and little raptors first to take less damage, blahblah typical stuff. red just fucks me over. One trick you can do is spam Q's out of range of blue like a ranged champ to so you take less at blue. Try to trap blue between the little golems. The leashes have become finnicky. But I think it's the same with everyone, kite them to their max leash range, hit them a few times, and walk in range of them. this one's extremely easy to do at red side but a bit harder on blueside. i haven't been able to do it consistently yet. but i don't think the others like scip rely on it for 6 camp clear
I recently learned how to do it consistently on both sides. Do you want the guide I found on reddit? It'd take some digging. Basically I no longer try to click on the exact same locations anymore like I'm doing a street fighter move, instead I hit blue and then walk behind the trees on both sides till blue gets stuck, then I start attacking.
On August 18 2015 09:18 TheHumanSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 09:16 krndandaman wrote:On August 18 2015 08:39 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 18 2015 08:32 krndandaman wrote:On August 18 2015 07:53 AlterKot wrote:On August 18 2015 07:43 kongoline wrote:
is it possible on reksi ? i just started learning him and without strong leash im almost dead after 1st buff , feels weird being forced to b after 1 buff as a tier 1 jungle pick Oo Make sure you kite buffs at least slightly, burrow between camps and fully utilize both your burrowed and unborrowed q. yeah and make sure you're going Q>W>E first 3 levels. I used to make the mistake of Q E W when I first started learning reksai so dunno if thats your issue too. also anyone know the best way to kite red buff? its weird as hell and seems to reset at the most randomest times. I was trying to do solo 6camp clear with evelynn in customs but I keep dying to the last gromp and I feel like I take the most damage at red/microing it the worst there. runes/masteries should be fine 21/9 standard stuff ad/ap runes with armor seals make sure q's hit multiple targets, focus down the little golem and little raptors first to take less damage, blahblah typical stuff. red just fucks me over. One trick you can do is spam Q's out of range of blue like a ranged champ to so you take less at blue. Try to trap blue between the little golems. The leashes have become finnicky. But I think it's the same with everyone, kite them to their max leash range, hit them a few times, and walk in range of them. this one's extremely easy to do at red side but a bit harder on blueside. i haven't been able to do it consistently yet. but i don't think the others like scip rely on it for 6 camp clear It's not particularly helpful unless you're super close to dying, but you can loop red buff around it's alcove through the bushes pretty far if you just need kiting distance and not the leash distance. You can then kite it back, but again this has very limited usefulness.
Ganking a lane with ~250 more health as Kayle or Xin has its uses, or maybe doing one more camp on a first clear. The possibilities of the extra health are limitless.
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On August 18 2015 15:30 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 09:18 TheHumanSensation wrote:On August 18 2015 09:16 krndandaman wrote:On August 18 2015 08:39 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 18 2015 08:32 krndandaman wrote:On August 18 2015 07:53 AlterKot wrote:On August 18 2015 07:43 kongoline wrote:
is it possible on reksi ? i just started learning him and without strong leash im almost dead after 1st buff , feels weird being forced to b after 1 buff as a tier 1 jungle pick Oo Make sure you kite buffs at least slightly, burrow between camps and fully utilize both your burrowed and unborrowed q. yeah and make sure you're going Q>W>E first 3 levels. I used to make the mistake of Q E W when I first started learning reksai so dunno if thats your issue too. also anyone know the best way to kite red buff? its weird as hell and seems to reset at the most randomest times. I was trying to do solo 6camp clear with evelynn in customs but I keep dying to the last gromp and I feel like I take the most damage at red/microing it the worst there. runes/masteries should be fine 21/9 standard stuff ad/ap runes with armor seals make sure q's hit multiple targets, focus down the little golem and little raptors first to take less damage, blahblah typical stuff. red just fucks me over. One trick you can do is spam Q's out of range of blue like a ranged champ to so you take less at blue. Try to trap blue between the little golems. The leashes have become finnicky. But I think it's the same with everyone, kite them to their max leash range, hit them a few times, and walk in range of them. this one's extremely easy to do at red side but a bit harder on blueside. i haven't been able to do it consistently yet. but i don't think the others like scip rely on it for 6 camp clear It's not particularly helpful unless you're super close to dying, but you can loop red buff around it's alcove through the bushes pretty far if you just need kiting distance and not the leash distance. You can then kite it back, but again this has very limited usefulness. Ganking a lane with ~250 more health as Kayle or Xin has its uses, or maybe doing one more camp on a first clear. The possibilities of the extra health are limitless.
Sorry, to clarify, I mean it doesn't work very well. Redgolem isn't slow, so by kiting not at the edge of leash range you're not really preventing very much of it's damage, while also adding time to your clear. The trick is mostly useful to either stall for cooldowns or if you have ranged autos or abilities you can use while moving (Kayle, Hecarim, Eve, etc). I don't play much though, so I haven't really explored it as much as I could, and maybe I'm missing something.
edit: further clarification, I'm referring to the red buff thing I was talking about, not the blue buff trick you were talking about. The blue buff thing is obviously useful.
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On August 18 2015 15:42 TheHumanSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 15:30 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 18 2015 09:18 TheHumanSensation wrote:On August 18 2015 09:16 krndandaman wrote:On August 18 2015 08:39 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 18 2015 08:32 krndandaman wrote:On August 18 2015 07:53 AlterKot wrote:On August 18 2015 07:43 kongoline wrote:
is it possible on reksi ? i just started learning him and without strong leash im almost dead after 1st buff , feels weird being forced to b after 1 buff as a tier 1 jungle pick Oo Make sure you kite buffs at least slightly, burrow between camps and fully utilize both your burrowed and unborrowed q. yeah and make sure you're going Q>W>E first 3 levels. I used to make the mistake of Q E W when I first started learning reksai so dunno if thats your issue too. also anyone know the best way to kite red buff? its weird as hell and seems to reset at the most randomest times. I was trying to do solo 6camp clear with evelynn in customs but I keep dying to the last gromp and I feel like I take the most damage at red/microing it the worst there. runes/masteries should be fine 21/9 standard stuff ad/ap runes with armor seals make sure q's hit multiple targets, focus down the little golem and little raptors first to take less damage, blahblah typical stuff. red just fucks me over. One trick you can do is spam Q's out of range of blue like a ranged champ to so you take less at blue. Try to trap blue between the little golems. The leashes have become finnicky. But I think it's the same with everyone, kite them to their max leash range, hit them a few times, and walk in range of them. this one's extremely easy to do at red side but a bit harder on blueside. i haven't been able to do it consistently yet. but i don't think the others like scip rely on it for 6 camp clear It's not particularly helpful unless you're super close to dying, but you can loop red buff around it's alcove through the bushes pretty far if you just need kiting distance and not the leash distance. You can then kite it back, but again this has very limited usefulness. Ganking a lane with ~250 more health as Kayle or Xin has its uses, or maybe doing one more camp on a first clear. The possibilities of the extra health are limitless. Sorry, to clarify, I mean it doesn't work very well. Redgolem isn't slow, so by kiting not at the edge of leash range you're not really preventing very much of it's damage, while also adding time to your clear. The trick is mostly useful to either stall for cooldowns or if you have ranged autos or abilities you can use while moving (Kayle, Hecarim, Eve, etc). I don't play much though, so I haven't really explored it as much as I could, and maybe I'm missing something. edit: further clarification, I'm referring to the red buff thing I was talking about, not the blue buff trick you were talking about. The blue buff thing is obviously useful.
Ah, alright.
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On August 18 2015 12:01 Caiada wrote:
I don't give a shit about soloq arguing; I care about what's actually mathematically good. If you're Vi, tell your shitty support to get an Aegis.
So it is mathematically (whatever this means without presenting actual math) good to not get a Zekes? Because a support cannot get Aegis and Zekes in most games. And I doubt that the cdr beats the 50% crit for the adc in total damage for your team.
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EPT
