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gg ez discussion will not be continued in GD following this post |
On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. Show nested quote +You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities.
If your skill level and understanding are on par, then the junglers has a better idea of what to do with the blue buff by nature of his role, which necessitates he be paying more attention to the big picture and entire scope of the game than the mid laner is capable of doing. There for it should logically be the junglers decision if there is no consensus.
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that said if your jungler is snoopeh and you're froggen you go afk if he takes blue
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
If that (apart from the causality mistake) was a fair summary of your position then that begs the question of what all the hyperbole and weird examples are all about but nevermind that.
If we want to talk about what you should do in your own soloQ games, then the answer is it should be a joint decision. Ask if you can take the blue buff (regardless of whether you are a jungler or a mid laner) minutes in advance and go from there.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On May 21 2015 01:53 Scip wrote:
If that (apart from the causality mistake) was a fair summary of your position then that begs the question of what all the hyperbole and weird examples are all about but nevermind that.
If we want to talk about what you should do in your own soloQ games, then the answer is it should be a joint decision. Ask if you can take the blue buff (regardless of whether you are a jungler or a mid laner) minutes in advance and go from there.
That's fine but what happens when there's disagreement? Mid asks for blue and jungle says no?
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
well, you can try to persuade by explaining why you need the blue.
If that doesn't work, then you're fucked, because jungler has smite and you don't? I'm not sure what you expect me to tell you lol.
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well jungle has the smite so go figure
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So you're saying magus challenging smite mid is the answer?
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we're saying bend over and take it from your jungle overlords
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I have outsmited my jungler with lux ult before.
Its a faster CD too lol
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On May 21 2015 02:04 Ketara wrote:
I have outsmited my jungler with lux ult before.
Its a faster CD too lol
Why not use the ult to steal blue from the enemy team when they go to take it?
In all seriousness though, did GD just have a 8 page discussion about second blue buff and it was kept mostly civil the entire time?
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On May 21 2015 02:10 Kinie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:04 Ketara wrote:
I have outsmited my jungler with lux ult before.
Its a faster CD too lol Why not use the ult to steal blue from the enemy team when they go to take it? In all seriousness though, did GD just have a 8 page discussion about second blue buff and it was kept mostly civil the entire time?
Because sometimes you just gotta steal shit from your own teammate.
Its the american way.
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i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage
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Csheep hasn't taken into account that na midlaners in high elo solo queue consists of hai, scarra, mandatory cloud, pobelter, bjergsen, shittur, and etc. Meanwhile in korea, you have players like faker, apdo, some 10 yearold prodigy who's not old enough to compete in ogn. So yeah, your best bet as jungler is to be midlanes sidebitch/manservant to win games. Meanwhile in NA, with exception of burgerking, you have to lead the midlaner by the dick as a jungler.
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On May 21 2015 02:12 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:10 Kinie wrote:On May 21 2015 02:04 Ketara wrote:
I have outsmited my jungler with lux ult before.
Its a faster CD too lol Why not use the ult to steal blue from the enemy team when they go to take it? In all seriousness though, did GD just have a 8 page discussion about second blue buff and it was kept mostly civil the entire time? Because sometimes you just gotta steal shit from your own teammate. Its the american way.
Well, you're not wrong.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage
No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner.
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well you're just lucky i didnt really read your posts yet
something about how every mid laner always gets blue except someone just spectated it didnt happen but accuse that guy of lying and then when scip posts another counterexample then you speculate what happened without evidence but nobody disproved it wat
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In terms of raw talent in the various regions, I think it probably goes something like this:
Korea: Everything
EU: Mid, Jungle
China: Mid, ADC
NA: ... (maybe Support?)
This has more to do with structure (or lack thereof) than anything else. Korea's had over a decade of Brood War to get a proper eSports structure set up. China's got a billion dollars to throw around and used it to basically import half of Korea to grow their scene. EU's been more receptive to the whole eSports thing than NA, mainly due to the Counter Strike scene there.
In NA there's still a stigma around video games, so there still isn't a good support structure in place to help young, raw, talented kids in solo Q get the regimen and training to turn that talent into something that can be used on the stage.
Maybe in another year or two NA's scene will grow and a more stable structure will be put into place? We could also do what China did and import more skilled players, though I think NA does have the potential to be as good as Korea in terms of raw mechanics, we just need to not be lazy assholes and actually work hard on something.
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On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner.
Dear cheep.
You shouldn't give yasuo blue buff.
Sincerely,
Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner.
'hurrr blue buff is mids 100% of the time in korea'
*slurpslurp kr dong*-csheep
'*pro korean tournament game showing mid giving up blue to jubgler*'-scip
'lol it was hyperbole. Blue still mid's no matter what'-csheep
Csheep plz.
User was warned for this post
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner.
On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. Show nested quote +You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities.
So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf?
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EPT
