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gg ez discussion will not be continued in GD following this post |
Baa?21243 Posts
On May 21 2015 02:54 Slayer91 wrote:how is it different? Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. How is that a better analogy? If there are so many situations its clear cut the mid gets blue then by that logic why not listen to the jungler when he says mid shouldn't get blue? Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:I found it funny how your post kept getting longer/changing every time I refreshed. Anyways. On May 21 2015 02:48 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? I'm sorry cheep if you're not smart enough to even understand my post that doesn't mean you can automatically ignore it. part of the reason the metaphor doesnt make sense is that its just a direct port of your reasoning to another medium where you're not horribly biased Your suggestion of going with the mid laner purely because he gets blue more often (when both parties are in agreement) is just the same as suggesting that a ball you can't agree on being blue or purple is blue because more of the balls in the box are blue (where you also both agree) The fact is that there's no reason to think that the ball is blue or purple just based on the number of blue and purple balls in the box without any other information. Do you know what a heuristic is? It means you accept the fact that you will sometimes make an incorrect decision (say the ball is purple I guess lol?) because it means you will make the correct decision the majority of the time. Except this is only relevant if you think the mid laners heuristic is better than the junglers unless its demonstrably true the jungler should get the blue because its more effort for both parties to give blue than not to give blue
It's not "mid laners heuristic," it's a heuristic based on how the game is optimally played, as far as we can tell, at the highest level right now.
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No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line
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Baa?21243 Posts
On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument.
On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line
It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other.
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On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:35 Scip wrote:
well why'd you say that jungler and middle laner are equally likely to be wrong then? When arguing over any single blue buff you have no good way of figuring out who's right/wrong. yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it. Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement. You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours. The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol. There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa.
There's a very good reason.
The jungler is spending much of the game not trying to cs, and not trying to deal with an enemy champion who is trying to immediately kill him. There for, he has more time to pay attention to the state of the overall game and can thus make better decisions.
When was the last time you played league? Can you really tell me that you're just as aware of what's going on in top/bot/the jungle/etc when you play mid as you are when you play jungle?
You're probably more aware of what's going on in mid lane, but mid is not the overall state of the game.
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On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other.
no its not wtf
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Baa?21243 Posts
On May 21 2015 03:02 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:35 Scip wrote:
well why'd you say that jungler and middle laner are equally likely to be wrong then? When arguing over any single blue buff you have no good way of figuring out who's right/wrong. yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it. Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement. You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours. The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol. There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa. There's a very good reason. The jungler is spending much of the game not trying to cs, and not trying to deal with an enemy champion who is trying to immediately kill him. There for, he has more time to pay attention to the state of the overall game and can thus make better decisions. When was the last time you played league? Can you really tell me that you're just as aware of what's going on in top/bot/the jungle/etc when you play mid as you are when you play jungle? You're probably more aware of what's going on in mid lane, but mid is not the overall state of the game.
By that logic every shotcaller would be jungle or support, which is what people assumed for a while, but it turns out mid/adc/top are often shotcallers as well.
On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf
Well argued.
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On May 21 2015 03:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:02 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:35 Scip wrote:
well why'd you say that jungler and middle laner are equally likely to be wrong then? When arguing over any single blue buff you have no good way of figuring out who's right/wrong. yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it. Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement. You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours. The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol. There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa. There's a very good reason. The jungler is spending much of the game not trying to cs, and not trying to deal with an enemy champion who is trying to immediately kill him. There for, he has more time to pay attention to the state of the overall game and can thus make better decisions. When was the last time you played league? Can you really tell me that you're just as aware of what's going on in top/bot/the jungle/etc when you play mid as you are when you play jungle? You're probably more aware of what's going on in mid lane, but mid is not the overall state of the game. By that logic every shotcaller would be jungle or support, which is what people assumed for a while, but it turns out mid/adc/top are often shotcallers as well. Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf Well argued.
If every bodies game sense and shot calling ability is equal, then the shotcaller SHOULD be the jungler or support, because they have the easiest time at it due to the nature of how they are playing the game. That's just logical sense.
So since you have no way of knowing whether or not the mid laner is a better shotcaller than the jungler, you should use a heuristic to determine that the jungler is probably better equipped to do so over large numbers of games and do what he sayd in regards to blue buff.
I mean, that is literally your own argument.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 21 2015 03:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
By that logic every shotcaller would be jungle or support, which is what people assumed for a while, but it turns out mid/adc/top are often shotcallers as well.
Well, no, being shotcaller is dependent a on a lot of factors other than individual vision of the game like how much people actually listen to you. Making the connection from shotcallers in a professional game to individual vision in a solo queue game is a pretty big stretch.
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On May 21 2015 03:08 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:02 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
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No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
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Big sorry.
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I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100.
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We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:35 Scip wrote:
well why'd you say that jungler and middle laner are equally likely to be wrong then? When arguing over any single blue buff you have no good way of figuring out who's right/wrong. yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it. Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement. You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours. The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol. There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa. There's a very good reason. The jungler is spending much of the game not trying to cs, and not trying to deal with an enemy champion who is trying to immediately kill him. There for, he has more time to pay attention to the state of the overall game and can thus make better decisions. When was the last time you played league? Can you really tell me that you're just as aware of what's going on in top/bot/the jungle/etc when you play mid as you are when you play jungle? You're probably more aware of what's going on in mid lane, but mid is not the overall state of the game. By that logic every shotcaller would be jungle or support, which is what people assumed for a while, but it turns out mid/adc/top are often shotcallers as well. On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf Well argued. If every bodies game sense and shot calling ability is equal, then the shotcaller SHOULD be the jungler or support, because they have the easiest time at it due to the nature of how they are playing the game. That's just logical sense. So since you have no way of knowing whether or not the mid laner is a better shotcaller than the jungler, you should use a heuristic to determine that the jungler is probably better equipped to do so over large numbers of games and do what he sayd in regards to blue buff. I mean, that is literally your own argument.
I don't think jungler necessarily has an easier time paying attention to the overall game than anyone else. Laners have to pay attention to their lane opponents and CSing, but top has to constantly look for TP opportunities, mid is on the lookout for roam, and support is setting up vision and controlling enemy vision often. Jungle has to do a combination of mid (roam/gank support) and support (vision control), as well as timing objectives and leading counterjungling initiatives. Everyone has to contribute to a variety of things that fall under "overall game knowledge" or whatever, I don't think any one role is particularly privileged in that regard.
On May 21 2015 03:09 TheYango wrote:
Well, no, being shotcaller is dependent a on a lot of factors other than individual vision of the game like how much people actually listen to you. Making the connection from shotcallers in a professional game to individual vision in a solo queue game is a pretty big stretch.
I mean everything is dependent on a lot of factors, so bringing that up doesn't really add anything. It does depend a lot on personality types and such, yes, but if jungle is really so much more advantaged as a game vision position you'd see many more jungle shot callers than you see right now I think.
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On May 21 2015 03:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:02 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:35 Scip wrote:
well why'd you say that jungler and middle laner are equally likely to be wrong then? When arguing over any single blue buff you have no good way of figuring out who's right/wrong. yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it. Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement. You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours. The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol. There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa. There's a very good reason. The jungler is spending much of the game not trying to cs, and not trying to deal with an enemy champion who is trying to immediately kill him. There for, he has more time to pay attention to the state of the overall game and can thus make better decisions. When was the last time you played league? Can you really tell me that you're just as aware of what's going on in top/bot/the jungle/etc when you play mid as you are when you play jungle? You're probably more aware of what's going on in mid lane, but mid is not the overall state of the game. By that logic every shotcaller would be jungle or support, which is what people assumed for a while, but it turns out mid/adc/top are often shotcallers as well. Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf Well argued.
you said "that's only true if XX" when XXwasn't relevant
I agree the mid gets blue more often but thats irrelevant because both jungler and mid agree on those situations
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On May 21 2015 03:13 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:02 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
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No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
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Big sorry.
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I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100.
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We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:35 Scip wrote:
well why'd you say that jungler and middle laner are equally likely to be wrong then? When arguing over any single blue buff you have no good way of figuring out who's right/wrong. yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it. Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement. You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours. The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol. There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa. There's a very good reason. The jungler is spending much of the game not trying to cs, and not trying to deal with an enemy champion who is trying to immediately kill him. There for, he has more time to pay attention to the state of the overall game and can thus make better decisions. When was the last time you played league? Can you really tell me that you're just as aware of what's going on in top/bot/the jungle/etc when you play mid as you are when you play jungle? You're probably more aware of what's going on in mid lane, but mid is not the overall state of the game. By that logic every shotcaller would be jungle or support, which is what people assumed for a while, but it turns out mid/adc/top are often shotcallers as well. On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf Well argued. you said "that's only true if XX" when XXwasn't relevant
Seems relevant. To repeat myself from earlier on another point, it's a difference in degree and not kind. The basic tenets still hold true regardless of it's 70/30 or if it's 51/49.
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On May 21 2015 03:12 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:08 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 03:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:02 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:
[quote]
[quote]
So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:35 Scip wrote:
well why'd you say that jungler and middle laner are equally likely to be wrong then? When arguing over any single blue buff you have no good way of figuring out who's right/wrong. yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it. Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement. You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours. The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol. There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa. There's a very good reason. The jungler is spending much of the game not trying to cs, and not trying to deal with an enemy champion who is trying to immediately kill him. There for, he has more time to pay attention to the state of the overall game and can thus make better decisions. When was the last time you played league? Can you really tell me that you're just as aware of what's going on in top/bot/the jungle/etc when you play mid as you are when you play jungle? You're probably more aware of what's going on in mid lane, but mid is not the overall state of the game. By that logic every shotcaller would be jungle or support, which is what people assumed for a while, but it turns out mid/adc/top are often shotcallers as well. On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf Well argued. If every bodies game sense and shot calling ability is equal, then the shotcaller SHOULD be the jungler or support, because they have the easiest time at it due to the nature of how they are playing the game. That's just logical sense. So since you have no way of knowing whether or not the mid laner is a better shotcaller than the jungler, you should use a heuristic to determine that the jungler is probably better equipped to do so over large numbers of games and do what he sayd in regards to blue buff. I mean, that is literally your own argument. I don't think jungler necessarily has an easier time paying attention to the overall game than anyone else. Laners have to pay attention to their lane opponents and CSing, but top has to constantly look for TP opportunities, mid is on the lookout for roam, and support is setting up vision and controlling enemy vision often. Jungle has to do a combination of mid (roam/gank support) and support (vision control), as well as timing objectives and leading counterjungling initiatives. Everyone has to contribute to a variety of things that fall under "overall game knowledge" or whatever, I don't think any one role is particularly privileged in that regard. Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:09 TheYango wrote:
Well, no, being shotcaller is dependent a on a lot of factors other than individual vision of the game like how much people actually listen to you. Making the connection from shotcallers in a professional game to individual vision in a solo queue game is a pretty big stretch. I mean everything is dependent on a lot of factors, so bringing that up doesn't really add anything. It does depend a lot on personality types and such, yes, but if jungle is really so much more advantaged as a game vision position you'd see many more jungle shot callers than you see right now I think.
I hate to use this argument because I think its almost always a crappy argument, but here I think it is actually the reasonable thing to say.
I am a better player than you and you are straight up wrong about this. Paying attention to the entire game is easier when you're jungling than when you're mid.
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On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf
Yes it is. Blue is a binary decision (well that we are considering). If you think that there is a 51 % chance that blue to kid is better then you give it to mid every time. You will do better in 51/100 games which is clearly better than doing better in 49/100 games. I mean, unless the goal isn't to win.
The question is what that number really is and well it's much closer to "give to mid" than it is to "give to jungle" for any generic game. Indeed, the game has to be quite outside of the norm in order for blue on the jungler to be more effective.
The issue is that junglers (esp NA junglers by the poll) don't seem to think that. They seem to think that they are in a better position to make the call, which they should be. But they seem to consistently get the call wrong, because they should be giving blue over to their mids more often. This means they are either not in such a position or their decisionmaking is poor/baised. I would go for the second over the first because the jungler should see more of the game/map
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On May 21 2015 03:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:13 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:02 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:
[quote]
[quote]
So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:35 Scip wrote:
well why'd you say that jungler and middle laner are equally likely to be wrong then? When arguing over any single blue buff you have no good way of figuring out who's right/wrong. yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it. Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement. You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours. The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol. There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa. There's a very good reason. The jungler is spending much of the game not trying to cs, and not trying to deal with an enemy champion who is trying to immediately kill him. There for, he has more time to pay attention to the state of the overall game and can thus make better decisions. When was the last time you played league? Can you really tell me that you're just as aware of what's going on in top/bot/the jungle/etc when you play mid as you are when you play jungle? You're probably more aware of what's going on in mid lane, but mid is not the overall state of the game. By that logic every shotcaller would be jungle or support, which is what people assumed for a while, but it turns out mid/adc/top are often shotcallers as well. On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf Well argued. you said "that's only true if XX" when XXwasn't relevant Seems relevant. To repeat myself from earlier on another point, it's a difference in degree and not kind. The basic tenets still hold true regardless of it's 70/30 or if it's 51/49.
the tenents hold true when you are picking a spot at random and not one in the middle
where its close enough that information decides way more than randomness
its liek you have two heuristics and both agree everywhere but at this spot
On May 21 2015 03:20 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf Yes it is. Blue is a binary decision (well that we are considering). If you think that there is a 51 % chance that blue to kid is better then you give it to mid every time. You will do better in 51/100 games which is clearly better than doing better in 49/100 games. I mean, unless the goal isn't to win. The question is what that number really is and well it's much closer to "give to mid" than it is to "give to jungle" for any generic game. Indeed, the game has to be quite outside of the norm in order for blue on the jungler to be more effective. The issue is that junglers (esp NA junglers by the poll) don't seem to think that. They seem to think that they are in a better position to make the call, which they should be. But they seem to consistently get the call wrong, because they should be giving blue over to their mids more often. This means they are either not in such a position or their decisionmaking is poor/baised. I would go for the second over the first because the jungler should see more of the game/map
You are misinterpreting a situation.
We aren't talking about a situation you think its 51% chance that blue is better on mid
We are talking about a situation where two players disagree, one person thinks say its 60% chance its better on him and the other player thinks the reverse
yes if its a 51% chance you should give blue to mid you give blue to mid but thats not what im takling about at all
I'm talking about the binary scale and 51% is on the binary scale but we are talking about a situation where specifically two players disagree and we assume they are roughly evenly skilled at the game who do we trust
if they are both equally trustworthy the inertia means jungle should get it
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Baa?21243 Posts
On May 21 2015 03:25 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:13 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:02 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
[quote]
?
They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
[quote]
When arguing over any single blue buff you have no good way of figuring out who's right/wrong. yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it. Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement. You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours. The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol. There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa. There's a very good reason. The jungler is spending much of the game not trying to cs, and not trying to deal with an enemy champion who is trying to immediately kill him. There for, he has more time to pay attention to the state of the overall game and can thus make better decisions. When was the last time you played league? Can you really tell me that you're just as aware of what's going on in top/bot/the jungle/etc when you play mid as you are when you play jungle? You're probably more aware of what's going on in mid lane, but mid is not the overall state of the game. By that logic every shotcaller would be jungle or support, which is what people assumed for a while, but it turns out mid/adc/top are often shotcallers as well. On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf Well argued. you said "that's only true if XX" when XXwasn't relevant Seems relevant. To repeat myself from earlier on another point, it's a difference in degree and not kind. The basic tenets still hold true regardless of it's 70/30 or if it's 51/49. the tenents hold true when you are picking a spot at random and not one in the middle where its close enough that information decides way more than randomness its liek you have two heuristics and both agree everywhere but at this spot
Information is deemed irrelevant here, however, because you're assuming both people have equally (in)valid reasoning on their side, so when their views are in direct opposition they're negated, so the only thing left that should sway the decision is the heuristic, which tilts it in favor of giving mid blue.
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I swear, next time one of you complains that I post long stuff and have trouble to get my points across...
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On May 21 2015 03:25 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:13 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:02 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
[quote]
?
They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
[quote]
When arguing over any single blue buff you have no good way of figuring out who's right/wrong. yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it. Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement. You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours. The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol. There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa. There's a very good reason. The jungler is spending much of the game not trying to cs, and not trying to deal with an enemy champion who is trying to immediately kill him. There for, he has more time to pay attention to the state of the overall game and can thus make better decisions. When was the last time you played league? Can you really tell me that you're just as aware of what's going on in top/bot/the jungle/etc when you play mid as you are when you play jungle? You're probably more aware of what's going on in mid lane, but mid is not the overall state of the game. By that logic every shotcaller would be jungle or support, which is what people assumed for a while, but it turns out mid/adc/top are often shotcallers as well. On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf Well argued. you said "that's only true if XX" when XXwasn't relevant Seems relevant. To repeat myself from earlier on another point, it's a difference in degree and not kind. The basic tenets still hold true regardless of it's 70/30 or if it's 51/49. the tenents hold true when you are picking a spot at random and not one in the middle wher its close enough that information decides way more than randomness
No. For any given point in the game the outcome is random. The proportions are different but it's still random. Giving blue to mid will have one probability of winning and giving blue to jungle will have another. You give blue to whichever is highest.
Lacking the benefit of hindsight that is usually mid. In most situations having the mid take (2nd) blue gives you a higher probability of winning and so in most situations you should give blue to mid.
There is a disconnect here because many junglers (NA) don't think that that is true regardless of how they should be interpreting the information they have they seem to do so incorrectly. Because if hey we're doing so correctly they would give up blue more often
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On May 21 2015 03:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:25 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:13 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:02 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:
[quote]
that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though
mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees
its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls
Uh...what? On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:
[quote]
yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it. Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement. You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours. The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol. There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa. There's a very good reason. The jungler is spending much of the game not trying to cs, and not trying to deal with an enemy champion who is trying to immediately kill him. There for, he has more time to pay attention to the state of the overall game and can thus make better decisions. When was the last time you played league? Can you really tell me that you're just as aware of what's going on in top/bot/the jungle/etc when you play mid as you are when you play jungle? You're probably more aware of what's going on in mid lane, but mid is not the overall state of the game. By that logic every shotcaller would be jungle or support, which is what people assumed for a while, but it turns out mid/adc/top are often shotcallers as well. On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf Well argued. you said "that's only true if XX" when XXwasn't relevant Seems relevant. To repeat myself from earlier on another point, it's a difference in degree and not kind. The basic tenets still hold true regardless of it's 70/30 or if it's 51/49. the tenents hold true when you are picking a spot at random and not one in the middle where its close enough that information decides way more than randomness its liek you have two heuristics and both agree everywhere but at this spot Information is deemed irrelevant here, however, because you're assuming both people have equally (in)valid reasoning on their side, so when their views are in direct opposition they're negated, so the only thing left that should sway the decision is the heuristic, which tilts it in favor of giving mid blue.
If they are equally good then you give it to the jungler because both sides save time and effort trying to time leaving lane and doing blue at the same time without losing excess hp etc
On May 21 2015 03:31 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:25 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:13 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:02 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:
[quote]
that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though
mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees
its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls
Uh...what? On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:
[quote]
yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it. Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement. You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours. The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol. There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa. There's a very good reason. The jungler is spending much of the game not trying to cs, and not trying to deal with an enemy champion who is trying to immediately kill him. There for, he has more time to pay attention to the state of the overall game and can thus make better decisions. When was the last time you played league? Can you really tell me that you're just as aware of what's going on in top/bot/the jungle/etc when you play mid as you are when you play jungle? You're probably more aware of what's going on in mid lane, but mid is not the overall state of the game. By that logic every shotcaller would be jungle or support, which is what people assumed for a while, but it turns out mid/adc/top are often shotcallers as well. On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf Well argued. you said "that's only true if XX" when XXwasn't relevant Seems relevant. To repeat myself from earlier on another point, it's a difference in degree and not kind. The basic tenets still hold true regardless of it's 70/30 or if it's 51/49. the tenents hold true when you are picking a spot at random and not one in the middle wher its close enough that information decides way more than randomness No. For any given point in the game the outcome is random. The proportions are different but it's still random. Giving blue to mid will have one probability of winning and giving blue to jungle will have another. You give blue to whichever is highest. Lacking the benefit of hindsight that is usually mid. In most situations having the mid take (2nd) blue gives you a higher probability of winning and so in most situations you should give blue to mid. There is a disconnect here because many junglers (NA) don't think that that is true regardless of how they should be interpreting the information they have they seem to do so incorrectly. Because if hey we're doing so correctly they would give up blue more often
I'm not saying its not random I'm saying the randomness here isn't what we are talking about we are talking about 2 different players giving different analysis' of the %EV essentially
who's analysis of %EV should we trust in this sitaution essentially
cheeps heuristic really doesn't apply
If every game the mid player was right 51% of the time and jungler was right 49% of the time then yes we'd go with the mid players assessment every time
Theres no correlation between the mid player getting blue more and the mid players assessment being correct
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On May 21 2015 03:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:25 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:13 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:02 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:
[quote]
that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though
mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees
its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls
Uh...what? On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:
[quote]
yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it. Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement. You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours. The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol. There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa. There's a very good reason. The jungler is spending much of the game not trying to cs, and not trying to deal with an enemy champion who is trying to immediately kill him. There for, he has more time to pay attention to the state of the overall game and can thus make better decisions. When was the last time you played league? Can you really tell me that you're just as aware of what's going on in top/bot/the jungle/etc when you play mid as you are when you play jungle? You're probably more aware of what's going on in mid lane, but mid is not the overall state of the game. By that logic every shotcaller would be jungle or support, which is what people assumed for a while, but it turns out mid/adc/top are often shotcallers as well. On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf Well argued. you said "that's only true if XX" when XXwasn't relevant Seems relevant. To repeat myself from earlier on another point, it's a difference in degree and not kind. The basic tenets still hold true regardless of it's 70/30 or if it's 51/49. the tenents hold true when you are picking a spot at random and not one in the middle where its close enough that information decides way more than randomness its liek you have two heuristics and both agree everywhere but at this spot Information is deemed irrelevant here, however, because you're assuming both people have equally (in)valid reasoning on their side, so when their views are in direct opposition they're negated, so the only thing left that should sway the decision is the heuristic, which tilts it in favor of giving mid blue.
But they don't have equally invalid reasoning. The junglers reasoning is inherrantly more valid because he is playing jungle, which you are apparently ignoring.
I mean, a silver league junglers better reasoning might not be better than "let's not do anything fancy and just give mid blue like teh proz do" but that is not going to be true for all games / skill levels, nor is it the argument you are trying to make.
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On May 21 2015 03:35 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:25 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:13 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:02 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
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Uh...what?
[quote]
Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement.
You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours. The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol. There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa. There's a very good reason. The jungler is spending much of the game not trying to cs, and not trying to deal with an enemy champion who is trying to immediately kill him. There for, he has more time to pay attention to the state of the overall game and can thus make better decisions. When was the last time you played league? Can you really tell me that you're just as aware of what's going on in top/bot/the jungle/etc when you play mid as you are when you play jungle? You're probably more aware of what's going on in mid lane, but mid is not the overall state of the game. By that logic every shotcaller would be jungle or support, which is what people assumed for a while, but it turns out mid/adc/top are often shotcallers as well. On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf Well argued. you said "that's only true if XX" when XXwasn't relevant Seems relevant. To repeat myself from earlier on another point, it's a difference in degree and not kind. The basic tenets still hold true regardless of it's 70/30 or if it's 51/49. the tenents hold true when you are picking a spot at random and not one in the middle where its close enough that information decides way more than randomness its liek you have two heuristics and both agree everywhere but at this spot Information is deemed irrelevant here, however, because you're assuming both people have equally (in)valid reasoning on their side, so when their views are in direct opposition they're negated, so the only thing left that should sway the decision is the heuristic, which tilts it in favor of giving mid blue. But they don't have equally invalid reasoning. The junglers reasoning is inherrantly more valid because he is playing jungle, which you are apparently ignoring. I mean, a silver league junglers better reasoning might not be better than "let's not do anything fancy and just give mid blue like teh proz do" but that is not going to be true for all games / skill levels, nor is it the argument you are trying to make.
No that's exactly the point I'm trying to make. There's no reason to think you have some privileged information that differentiates you from the millions of other people playing solo queue, and there's certainly no reason to think you can gauge the situation better than a pro. In that case you shouldn't try to do anything fancy and you should just give mid the blue because it's tried and tested.
They do have equally invalid reasoning, and I do dispute the idea that the jungle's reasoning is better because he's playing jungle. Your argument broke down to "I have nothing left to say so I'm gonna claim I'm better than you and settle it like that."
On May 21 2015 03:35 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 03:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:25 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:13 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:02 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game. On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
[quote]
Uh...what?
[quote]
Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement.
You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours. The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol. There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa. There's a very good reason. The jungler is spending much of the game not trying to cs, and not trying to deal with an enemy champion who is trying to immediately kill him. There for, he has more time to pay attention to the state of the overall game and can thus make better decisions. When was the last time you played league? Can you really tell me that you're just as aware of what's going on in top/bot/the jungle/etc when you play mid as you are when you play jungle? You're probably more aware of what's going on in mid lane, but mid is not the overall state of the game. By that logic every shotcaller would be jungle or support, which is what people assumed for a while, but it turns out mid/adc/top are often shotcallers as well. On May 21 2015 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played That's only true if you dispute the notion that mid should get more blue more often than jungler overall. Which is a completely different argument. On May 21 2015 03:00 Slayer91 wrote:
No, its a disagreement between these two parties who both have their own heuristic on how the game is optimally played
The thing is we aren't picking a situation at RANDOM, if its a 70/30% split we arent picking a situation randomly in that 70:30 split we are picking a spot right in the middle where this heuristic is irrelevant because its so close to either line It doesn't matter how close to the line it is, if the odds aren't exactly 50/50 there is one heuristic that is clearly superior to the other. no its not wtf Well argued. you said "that's only true if XX" when XXwasn't relevant Seems relevant. To repeat myself from earlier on another point, it's a difference in degree and not kind. The basic tenets still hold true regardless of it's 70/30 or if it's 51/49. the tenents hold true when you are picking a spot at random and not one in the middle where its close enough that information decides way more than randomness its liek you have two heuristics and both agree everywhere but at this spot Information is deemed irrelevant here, however, because you're assuming both people have equally (in)valid reasoning on their side, so when their views are in direct opposition they're negated, so the only thing left that should sway the decision is the heuristic, which tilts it in favor of giving mid blue. If they are equally good then you give it to the jungler because both sides save time and effort trying to time leaving lane and doing blue at the same time without losing excess hp etc
Let's do a detailed breakdown of how much HP and time it costs various mid/jungle/combinations to do blue buff and compare it with the gold value of blue buff based on CDR/manapool/regen items.
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