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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On May 21 2015 04:08 Goumindong wrote: Jungler thinks 3/10 mid? Jungler should take every time when the correct action for 8/10 mid is to give to mid every time. Jungler is wrong. He probably miswrote and meant 7/10, because that's what the context of the rest of his post seems to imply. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On May 21 2015 03:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Which goes to your point - we shouldn't bother discussing what shit players do anyways. We've formulated a situation where mid and jungle don't hate each other and are at an equal level of skill, but through their own reasoning, have came to opposing views on what the best course of action is. IN this scenario the mid has already taken into account who the jungler is along a whole host of other factors, and similarly is the case for the jungler. I'd generally argue that the mid shouldn't and won't be thinking about all the things the jungler thinks about in terms of cost/benefit for jungle clearing gank opportunites etc and as such has a better idea of things jungler won't know the intricacies of the lane but should know enough to estimate the cs lead/deficit for losing/gaining blue or roaming difference but if they truly have equal analysis it comes down to who they decide is more important to get ahead getting a bruiser ahead is generallly more important than getting a tank ahead Also the argument that NA/EU bad players dont give blue enough is just as valid as the argument that KR/CN bad junglers give it too much because of the tendancy for KR/CN to copy the pros a lot they might be right in giving blue but for the situation it might be better for them to take blue with unreliable mid laners | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
and that also assumes a solid mid laner who wards or otherwise has a low tendancy to feed it to a jungler I'm not too fixed on individual scenarios at all they are literally the things we make decisions based on if you're ensure to make a judgement call and see how it goes or copy pros and see how it goes or play selfishly because fuck your team or play teamwise because you dont want them to rage | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On May 21 2015 04:08 TheYango wrote: TBH the real question in all of this is why Cheep posed the original question leading up to this discussion from his Veg Wolf account. He probably miswrote and meant 7/10, because that's what the context of the rest of his post seems to imply. If you just look at the pretty picture! Yes. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 04:23 Slayer91 wrote: its not better "always" as you seem to claim and that also assumes a solid mid laner who wards or otherwise has a low tendancy to feed it to a jungler I'm not too fixed on individual scenarios at all they are literally the things we make decisions based on if you're ensure to make a judgement call and see how it goes or copy pros and see how it goes or play selfishly because fuck your team or play teamwise because you dont want them to rage It doesn't have to be always, it just has to be more often better than not. The assumption of a solid mid laner is, again, moot. you're at the same level as the guy you're playing with, you're not magically better unless you're smurfing or something. Copying pros is a surefire way to do something that's not completely, irredeemably awful. Playing selfishly is almost never the answer unless you're smurfing. Playing team-oriented is the right option but isn't always realistic in solo queue. On May 21 2015 04:24 Ketara wrote: Your "whole point" in this argument has changed multiple times. Not really. Maybe according to your comprehension, but again, that's hardly my responsibility. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On May 21 2015 04:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: It doesn't have to be always, it just has to be more often better than not. The assumption of a solid mid laner is, again, moot. you're at the same level as the guy you're playing with, you're not magically better unless you're smurfing or something. Copying pros is a surefire way to do something that's not completely, irredeemably awful. Playing selfishly is almost never the answer unless you're smurfing. Playing team-oriented is the right option but isn't always realistic in solo queue. Not really. Maybe according to your comprehension, but again, that's hardly my responsibility. "More often than not" only applies in the situation you don't look at ANY other factors at all which is just stupid. Also you're not correct on assesment of playstyles. If you are tryharding, playing a champ you're good at, good jungler etc then you can play selfishly with the assumption you'll carry mid laner more likely to be off role/off champ/dicking around etc on the other hand if you always help the team they are less likely to tilt taking pressure off you but denying you some opportunities no one is clear cut better or worse so you again should look at the cost/benefit you're basically saying "if your best heurstic taking into account all the factors to the best of your knowledge doesnt work use the weakest and most general one becauase fuck it yolo" | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
You have gone from jungle should give mid blue even when its Yasuo and Katarina because that's what Korean solo queue players do, to saying that if both players can't decide who should have blue then mid should get it because that's most likely to be correct, to now saying that if its not clear who would use it better then its more likely mid should get it. Basically you've gone from something that was very obviously wrong to something that everybody basically does in the first place and isn't really a cause for debate. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 04:35 Ketara wrote: You have gone from jungle should give mid blue even when its Yasuo and Katarina I already explained how that was never my point at all, which you'd know if you read the posts carefully. http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/485388-patch-59-ashe-rework-general-discussion?page=34#663 because that's what Korean solo queue players do, Issue of causality, and again, was never what I claimed. http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/485388-patch-59-ashe-rework-general-discussion?page=34#678 to saying that if both players can't decide who should have blue then mid should get it because that's most likely to be correct, to now saying that if its not clear who would use it better then its more likely mid should get it. These two are the same point as I detailed out to Teut, unless you're missing some nuance in the argument. Basically you've gone from something that was very obviously wrong Again, nope. to something that everybody basically does in the first place and isn't really a cause for debate. Well there's obviously still cause for debate since people aren't prostrating themselves at my feet and proclaiming me their one true god, so my work is not yet done. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Well, and Scip. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Assuming it's genuine. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
The very wise and very fictional captain levi sums it up best: You can either trust yourself or trust your teammates, you never know how things are going to turn out. Also I haven't read any of ketaras posts because I've made all my posts mostly during game or queue so 0 time I just won though ggwp the one thing Cheeps heuristic can tell us is that if you know absolutely nothing about league of legends you should give blue to mid laner all the time which I guess is why cheep is annoyed when junglers don't always give him blue :3 :3:3:3:3:3:3 | ||
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thejuju
United States413 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On May 21 2015 04:48 thejuju wrote: The most hilarious part about reading this thread is that no one has logically argued against cheep without resorting to logical fallacies. Can you point out my logical fallacies? All I can see is cheep using a false equivalence or mid getting blue more implying that in case of a disagreement mid should get blue | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Yes, mid should get blue more often than jungle, so you could say that in case of disagreement middle should get the blue. But in game you ALWAYS have more info to go off of. If you have a jungler who uses a lot of mana and manaless middle, second blue should usually go to jungler. So in case of disagreement jungler should get blue. If you have a jungler who uses a lot of mana and the middle laner is feeding AND has little waveclear then second blue should usually go to jungler. So in case of disagreement jungler should get blue. If you have a jungler who uses a lot of mana and the middle laner is feeding BUT has a lot of mana based waveclear then second blue should usually go to the middle laner. So in case of disagreement middle laner should get blue. etc. Cheep isn't wrong in principle it's just his generalization is so fucking massive to the point of being both useless and retarded. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On May 21 2015 04:52 Scip wrote: Yes, mid should get blue more often than jungle, so you could say that in case of disagreement middle should get the blue. I only agree with this in the case of "bad players" and they are "equally bad" as in, they both have very incorrect assessment so you just take a shot in the dark and give it to mid If they are "good players" and they agree most of the time when they should and shouldn't get blue then probably the jungler should get precedence on the decision for reasons outlined loads of times earlier. If you are actively in the game it comes down to making your own judgement and you can pressure your way into the decision as mid player but ultimately jungler has smite. That said nearly all the time the following happens Jungler wants blue, mid wants blue but doesn't come: jungler gets blue, mid whines a bit but its okay Jungler wants blue, mid wants blue but comes: smiting blue away from him here is pretty toxic and he already wasted time coming, so mid gets blue Unless you want the blue strongly enough to smite away from him which means you need a strong reason its all based on the mid laners map awareness and the more he wants blue the more on point he is coming early for it | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 04:50 Slayer91 wrote: Can you point out my logical fallacies? All I can see is cheep using a false equivalence or mid getting blue more implying that in case of a disagreement mid should get blue On May 21 2015 01:03 Slayer91 wrote: that's speculation LOL your argument is weak cheep Argumentum ex silentio On May 21 2015 01:24 Slayer91 wrote: You're absolutely allowed to call an argument weak wtf? The burden of proof is on you. Unilaterally is bad word anyway. Junglers are always thinking of laners so everytime a jungler takes blue when mid could have gotten it he made the concious decision to take it instead of mid. Onus probandi On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote: i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage Argumentum ad hominem On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote: that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls ultimately it takes more effort for both jungle and mid to trade off blue than to just take it so inertias in the "undecided-->jungler" camp, game mechanics are in that camp (smite) and generally the jungle has to think about things like handing off blue much more than mid so he's probably got a stronger idea of when its good or not False analogy Argumentum ad absurdo On May 21 2015 04:23 Slayer91 wrote: its not better "always" as you seem to claim and that also assumes a solid mid laner who wards or otherwise has a low tendancy to feed it to a jungler I'm not too fixed on individual scenarios at all they are literally the things we make decisions based on if you're ensure to make a judgement call and see how it goes or copy pros and see how it goes or play selfishly because fuck your team or play teamwise because you dont want them to rage Ignoratio elenchi On May 21 2015 04:43 Slayer91 wrote: Also with regards to selfish/teammate oriented The very wise and very fictional captain levi sums it up best: You can either trust yourself or trust your teammates, you never know how things are going to turn out. Also I haven't read any of ketaras posts because I've made all my posts mostly during game or queue so 0 time I just won though ggwp the one thing Cheeps heuristic can tell us is that if you know absolutely nothing about league of legends you should give blue to mid laner all the time which I guess is why cheep is annoyed when junglers don't always give him blue :3 :3:3:3:3:3:3 Argumentum ad hominem | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 04:52 Scip wrote: What about being more specific? Yes, mid should get blue more often than jungle, so you could say that in case of disagreement middle should get the blue. But in game you ALWAYS have more info to go off of. If you have a jungler who uses a lot of mana and manaless middle, second blue should usually go to jungler. So in case of disagreement jungler should get blue. If you have a jungler who uses a lot of mana and the middle laner is feeding AND has little waveclear then second blue should usually go to jungler. So in case of disagreement jungler should get blue. If you have a jungler who uses a lot of mana and the middle laner is feeding BUT has a lot of mana based waveclear then second blue should usually go to the middle laner. So in case of disagreement middle laner should get blue. etc. I mean this is more the along Ketara's point of "everyone agrees anyways" which is why there's not much point discussing them down to the last detail. Cheep isn't wrong in principle it's just his generalization is so fucking massive to the point of being both useless and retarded. The conclusion that I want to draw is junglers should be more open to the idea of giving mid blue instead of falling into the mentality of "my jungle my rules." | ||
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