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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
holy shit you are just thinking about this in terms of blue vs no blue and not in terms of a blue being valuable on a jungler as well as being about equally valuable on a mid who should get it? everyone agrees that most of the time its more valuable on the mid player we're talking a situation with weak value on the mid player and strong value on the jungle like say its a zed mid and a jungle who burns mana a lot | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 03:41 Slayer91 wrote: wtf cheep I'm not trying to say bluebuff isn't worth value to the mid player holy shit you are just thinking about this in terms of blue vs no blue and not in terms of a blue being valuable on a jungler as well as being about equally valuable on a mid who should get it? I was being facetious, as I assumed you were when you said jungler should always get blue because it takes more time to have mid lane walk over. On May 21 2015 03:42 JimmiC wrote: Anyone ever noticed that most of the time people use the word literally, they literally use it wrong? Ctrl-F'd "literally," found one case. Checks out. On May 21 2015 03:42 Caiada wrote: Playing the game *probably* shouldn't be decided on statistical modeling. ![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/6e2XP.gif) This post amuses me on so many levels you don't even know. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On May 21 2015 03:42 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I was being facetious, as I assumed you were when you said jungler should always get blue because it takes more time to have mid lane walk over. are you serious? we have established this 99% of the time jungle and mid agree on who should get the blues You're saying that the 1% of the time you should give it to the blue because blue goes to mid more what if its katarina? Better example: mana heavy junglers get blue most of the time with a zed player. If zed wants blue later on and the jungler wants blue who should we trust? The jungler just because he gets blue more often? That's shit reasoning, jungler probably has a poor idea of the value of energy regen and cdr on zed later and can do without the mana later in the game You seem to say "When in doubt give to mid" when mid gets more in general but if you zoom in zed gets blue less but zoom in more zed gets blue more later you can keep zooming in and applying your shitty heuristics when both player already are applying them mentally and with much more factors taken into account so it comes down to who has a better idea of the situation In the above example not many junglers play zed and mid laners probably have a better grasp of the value on blue on him at a certain point in the game on the other hand everyone more or less knows how mana and cdr help a ziggs or fizz or somthing | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
On May 21 2015 03:42 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I was being facetious, as I assumed you were when you said jungler should always get blue because it takes more time to have mid lane walk over. Ctrl-F'd "literally," found one case. Checks out. This post amuses me on so many levels you don't even know. I know you disagree :^) and don't care. Still true~ | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
But no, you've never been arguing that silver league players should just do what pros do. You originally started this argument in the context of high level solo queue and that high level EU/NA players make worse decisions than high level KR/CN players because they're less disciplined or greedy or whatever. If your argument is that silver league players do stupid shit a lot of the time, nobody disagrees. But going back to what was your original argument, if you want to say that people should just give blue to mid all the the because Korean solo queue players afk if they don't get it, you're going to get a lot of push back. (Because you're wrong) | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
If such a decision is that close its obvious to just look at the overhead and take the easiest option I really think the ball metaphor was an accurate depiction of how stuipd cheeps reasoning there was I know he's trying to argue mid should get blue more but every good player gives blues way more than the average shit na jungler trying to argue shit players shouldn't do bad things is just a waste of time | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On May 21 2015 03:35 Ketara wrote: But they don't have equally invalid reasoning. The junglers reasoning is inherrantly more valid because he is playing jungle, which you are apparently ignoring. I mean, a silver league junglers better reasoning might not be better than "let's not do anything fancy and just give mid blue like teh proz do" but that is not going to be true for all games / skill levels, nor is it the argument you are trying to make. If the junglers reasoning were more valid then the overall "give to mid" rates would be more in line with the out of game clean analysis "give to mid" rates (by summation). They're not and so the reasoning must be wrong. They might be in the best place to make the decision (indeed in soloqueue I think you should defer shot calling to support/jungle) but they're not making it so there has to be something wrong going on in the process. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 03:50 Caiada wrote: I know you disagree :^) and don't care. Still true~ No, it's funny because I take the complete opposite stance actually. On May 21 2015 03:51 Slayer91 wrote: Ultimately everyoen bases their decisions on a combination of logic and statistical modelling of their past observations and experiences but cheep is trying to argue that if two players disagree we should use the most general and weak if any correlated heuristic to solve a dispute between players with a much more advanced method of making their decisions. If such a decision is that close its obvious to just look at the overhead and take the easiest option I really think the ball metaphor was an accurate depiction of how stuipd cheeps reasoning there was I know he's trying to argue mid should get blue more but every good player gives blues way more than the average shit na jungler trying to argue shit players shouldn't do bad things is just a waste of time If their advanced decision makings are in direct conflict with each other there needs to be a better way of solving it. Jungler has smite so jungler gets it -> Misguided but sure that's a way. Mid should usually get blue so mid gets it -> Much more reasonable, based on, if nothing else, empirical evidence. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Lets say that the correct split, played optimally, is 8/10 to mid, 2/10 jungler. Lets also say that Mid things it should be 9/10 mid, and jungler thinks 3/10. This means there is an argument at spots 2,3 mid is wrong once, jungler once. In THIS scenario, there is no reliable way to determine (in game) who is correct. However, Cheeps argument is (and Ketara appears to confirm) that junglers want it way more than 3/10 (which he seems to think is because they are smarter), so that expands the "area of dispute", but it expands it in a way that the jungler is more likely to be incorrect. IMO, what it indicates to me is that if you are pro-jungler in this situation you need to not argue that you are more likely to be correct, but that the perceived "ideal" split posited in the beginning is incorrect. See my pretty picture: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://s7.postimg.org/ap8xs4bdj/agdfgfsad.jpg) | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
Oddly enough I was playing jungle last night and our Katarina pinged out blue buff at like 30 minutes in. I didn't think about it until now, but it probably wasn't very efficient to give her blue buff. No wonder she thanked me for it. I was concentrating more on that fucker Wukong trying to steal my Gromp buff. Am I the only one that doesn't value blue buff very highly? I value the map pressure over taking blue buff on cool down. I'd imagine only about 20% of the time I hand blue buff to my mid laner. Not because I make best use of it. It's due to them not wanting it or I'll take it when there's no lane I'm able to pressure. Of course, unless you have an Anivia, Azir, Swain, Ziggs, LeBlanc or Lux mid lane. Then you're gimping your team by not giving them blue buff on cool down. I don't even care if they're feeding. By not giving those champs blue it'll make their life a helluvalot harder. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
but junglers like nunu don't really give a fuck just as there are mid laners who need more or less a blue id say generally mids don't take into account who their jungler is when they ask for blue | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
And you can't make the argument that silvers in Korea give blue to mid more than silvers in NA because you don't have data to support that. And you haven't successfully argued that NA pros give blue to jungle more often because they're incapable of understanding the game better than your heuristic of when in doubt give to mid, because A: they already do that, and B: the argument is based on the assumption that this pro NA jungler can't use his individual ability to reason for that individual game better than your heuristic, which is complete bullshit. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 03:56 Slayer91 wrote: id say generally mids don't take into account who their jungler is when they ask for blue Which goes to your point - we shouldn't bother discussing what shit players do anyways. We've formulated a situation where mid and jungle don't hate each other and are at an equal level of skill, but through their own reasoning, have came to opposing views on what the best course of action is. IN this scenario the mid has already taken into account who the jungler is along a whole host of other factors, and similarly is the case for the jungler. On May 21 2015 03:50 Ketara wrote: I mean, cheep, first of all, its not like its some wild crazy claim. I am a better player than you. So is I think literally everybody here that you are arguing against, a group in which I may well be the worst player. I just did not have a better way to explain why your thought that its just as hard to understand the overall scope of the game is incorrect. But no, you've never been arguing that silver league players should just do what pros do. You originally started this argument in the context of high level solo queue and that high level EU/NA players make worse decisions than high level KR/CN players because they're less disciplined or greedy or whatever. If your argument is that silver league players do stupid shit a lot of the time, nobody disagrees. But going back to what was your original argument, if you want to say that people should just give blue to mid all the the because Korean solo queue players afk if they don't get it, you're going to get a lot of push back. (Because you're wrong) On May 21 2015 03:58 Ketara wrote: Like, you can't make the argument that Korean pros give blue to mid all the time therefor NA silvers are less disciplined. Of course they're less disciplined they're silvers that's stupid as fuck. And you can't make the argument that silvers in Korea give blue to mid more than silvers in NA because you don't have data to support that. And you haven't successfully argued that NA pros give blue to jungle more often because they're incapable of understanding the game better than your heuristic of when in doubt give to mid, because A: they already do that, and B: the argument is based on the assumption that this NA jungler can't use his individual ability to reason for that individual game better than your heuristic, which is complete bullshit. You're raving. Have a biscuit. | ||
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las91
United States5080 Posts
On May 21 2015 03:58 Ketara wrote: Like, you can't make the argument that Korean pros give blue to mid all the time therefor NA silvers are less disciplined. Of course they're less disciplined they're silvers that's stupid as fuck. And you can't make the argument that silvers in Korea give blue to mid more than silvers in NA because you don't have data to support that. And you haven't successfully argued that NA pros give blue to jungle more often because they're incapable of understanding the game better than your heuristic of when in doubt give to mid, because A: they already do that, and B: the argument is based on the assumption that this pro NA jungler can't use his individual ability to reason for that individual game better than your heuristic, which is complete bullshit. Idk it seems like Cheep probably has a lot of experience with silver level solo queue in every region based on these arguments. My original point 6 pages ago was it actually is worth thinking about as jungler and is a real in-game decision. You have to weigh the second blue on game state to go to mid or jungle, third and on should 99% of the time go to the mid laner. Even though I'm a shitty NA jungler I can understand that. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://s12.postimg.org/t9l660a7h/agdfgfsad.jpg) | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On May 21 2015 03:53 cLutZ wrote: Ok, you guys are all arguing over this fairly incorrectly. The heuristic for determining if junglers should decide or mids decide is quite simple: Which is more prone to be incorrect? Lets say that the correct split, played optimally, is 8/10 to mid, 2/10 jungler. Lets also say that Mid things it should be 9/10 mid, and jungler thinks 3/10. This means there is an argument at spots 2,3 mid is wrong once, jungler once. In THIS scenario, there is no reliable way to determine (in game) who is correct. However, Cheeps argument is (and Ketara appears to confirm) that junglers want it way more than 3/10 (which he seems to think is because they are smarter), so that expands the "area of dispute", but it expands it in a way that the jungler is more likely to be incorrect. IMO, what it indicates to me is that if you are pro-jungler in this situation you need to not argue that you are more likely to be correct, but that the perceived "ideal" split posited in the beginning is incorrect. See my pretty picture: + Show Spoiler + Jungler thinks 3/10 mid? Jungler should take every time when the correct action for 8/10 mid is to give to mid every time. Jungler is wrong. | ||
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