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gg ez discussion will not be continued in GD following this post |
On May 21 2015 02:17 Kinie wrote:
In terms of raw talent in the various regions, I think it probably goes something like this:
Korea: Everything
EU: Mid, Jungle
China: Mid, ADC
NA: ... (maybe Support?)
This has more to do with structure (or lack thereof) than anything else. Korea's had over a decade of Brood War to get a proper eSports structure set up. China's got a billion dollars to throw around and used it to basically import half of Korea to grow their scene. EU's been more receptive to the whole eSports thing than NA, mainly due to the Counter Strike scene there.
In NA there's still a stigma around video games, so there still isn't a good support structure in place to help young, raw, talented kids in solo Q get the regimen and training to turn that talent into something that cane be used on the stage.
Korea specifically stands out in terms of Jungle/Top/Support IMO. There are a few non-Korean ADCs and Mids who can/could compete at a similar level to the best Koreans, but for the other roles it seems rare.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf?
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They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons).
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On May 21 2015 02:25 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:17 Kinie wrote:
In terms of raw talent in the various regions, I think it probably goes something like this:
Korea: Everything
EU: Mid, Jungle
China: Mid, ADC
NA: ... (maybe Support?)
This has more to do with structure (or lack thereof) than anything else. Korea's had over a decade of Brood War to get a proper eSports structure set up. China's got a billion dollars to throw around and used it to basically import half of Korea to grow their scene. EU's been more receptive to the whole eSports thing than NA, mainly due to the Counter Strike scene there.
In NA there's still a stigma around video games, so there still isn't a good support structure in place to help young, raw, talented kids in solo Q get the regimen and training to turn that talent into something that cane be used on the stage. Korea specifically stands out in terms of Jungle/Top/Support IMO. There are a few non-Korean ADCs and Mids who can/could compete at a similar level to the best Koreans, but for the other roles it seems rare.
See, I thought about saying Top/Jungle/Support specifically, but then you have some pretty solid mid laners in Korea right now. And until China came in, there were a ton of top-tier ADCs in Korea too, not to mention the mid laners who left Korea to go to China for the money. Hence why I said everything.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
If they are equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance then they are equally likely to be wrong in general. Which would make sense, because junglers are more likely to demand a blue buff when they have good reasons for it.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 02:31 Scip wrote:
If they are equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance then they are equally likely to be wrong in general. Which would make sense, because junglers are more likely to demand a blue buff when they have good reasons for it.
From the macro level, mid should get blue more often than jungle. Therefore, if there is disagreement and you don't know who's right/wrong, you give it to blue because it's more likely to be useful on mid than blue over many games. It could be totally wrong in that specific game/instance but that's the drawback of using a heuristic.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
well why'd you say that jungler and middle laner are equally likely to be wrong then?
Was it a hyperbole?
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On May 21 2015 02:33 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:31 Scip wrote:
If they are equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance then they are equally likely to be wrong in general. Which would make sense, because junglers are more likely to demand a blue buff when they have good reasons for it. From the macro level, mid should get blue more often than jungle. Therefore, if there is disagreement and you don't know who's right/wrong, you give it to blue because it's more likely to be useful on mid than blue over many games. It could be totally wrong in that specific game/instance but that's the drawback of using a heuristic.
I'm fairly certain that's how it works for everybody at all skill levels.
The bungler takes blue when he believes he has a reason to take it over mid. Most junglers aren't like I GET BLUE BECAUSE I WANT TO LOSE THE GAME
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Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 02:35 Scip wrote:
well why'd you say that jungler and middle laner are equally likely to be wrong then?
When arguing over any single blue buff you have no good way of figuring out who's right/wrong.
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If you think giving your midlaner blue is so good but rare then just give it and receive freelo for all the times your opponnet doesn't?
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On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons).
that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though
mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees
its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls
ultimately it takes more effort for both jungle and mid to trade off blue than to just take it so inertias in the "undecided-->jungler" camp, game mechanics are in that camp (smite) and generally the jungle has to think about things like handing off blue much more than mid so he's probably got a stronger idea of when its good or not
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 21 2015 02:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:35 Scip wrote:
well why'd you say that jungler and middle laner are equally likely to be wrong then? When arguing over any single blue buff you have no good way of figuring out who's right/wrong.
yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls
Uh...what?
On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:35 Scip wrote:
well why'd you say that jungler and middle laner are equally likely to be wrong then? When arguing over any single blue buff you have no good way of figuring out who's right/wrong. yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it.
Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement.
You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen?
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On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what?
I'm sorry cheep if you're not smart enough to even understand my post that doesn't mean you can automatically ignore it.
part of the reason the metaphor doesnt make sense is that its just a direct port of your reasoning to another medium where you're not horribly biased
Your suggestion of going with the mid laner purely because he gets blue more often (when both parties are in agreement) is just the same as suggesting that a ball you can't agree on being blue or purple is blue because more of the balls in the box are blue (where you also both agree)
The fact is that there's no reason to think that the ball is blue or purple just based on the number of blue and purple balls in the box without any other information.
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Baa?21248 Posts
I found it funny how your post kept getting longer/changing every time I refreshed. Anyways.
On May 21 2015 02:48 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? I'm sorry cheep if you're not smart enough to even understand my post that doesn't mean you can automatically ignore it. part of the reason the metaphor doesnt make sense is that its just a direct port of your reasoning to another medium where you're not horribly biased Your suggestion of going with the mid laner purely because he gets blue more often (when both parties are in agreement) is just the same as suggesting that a ball you can't agree on being blue or purple is blue because more of the balls in the box are blue (where you also both agree) The fact is that there's no reason to think that the ball is blue or purple just based on the number of blue and purple balls in the box without any other information.
Do you know what a heuristic is? It means you accept the fact that you will sometimes make an incorrect decision (say the ball is purple I guess lol?) because it means you will make the correct decision the majority of the time.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 21 2015 02:48 Slayer91 wrote:
Your suggestion of going with the mid laner purely because he gets blue more often (when both parties are in agreement) is just the same as suggesting that a ball you can't agree on being blue or purple is blue because more of the balls in the box are blue (where you also both agree)
The fact is that there's no reason to think that the ball is blue or purple just based on the number of blue and purple balls in the box without any other information.
That's not at all the same situation you wrote in your first post, lol.
EDIT: NM it's the same your post is just confusing to read.
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On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:35 Scip wrote:
well why'd you say that jungler and middle laner are equally likely to be wrong then? When arguing over any single blue buff you have no good way of figuring out who's right/wrong. yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it. Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement. You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen?
Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours.
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Baa?21248 Posts
A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game.
On May 21 2015 02:54 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? On May 21 2015 02:39 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:35 Scip wrote:
well why'd you say that jungler and middle laner are equally likely to be wrong then? When arguing over any single blue buff you have no good way of figuring out who's right/wrong. yes you do, you can use your past experience combined with reasoning process to determine the likelihood that you're correct. That's a very good way of figuring it out and it's the same process you use when making any decision in league of legends. Just because middle laners should get blue buff more than 50% of the time it doesn't follow that you should give your middle laner blue buff WHENEVER he wants it. Well the point is mid could have a different assessment of the situation based on HIS past experience/reasoning/etc. and come to a different conclusion than the jungler. And since they're in the same game it's assumed they have similar skill/critical capabilities, so it's not at all clear who's right in his assessments. But because you know that mid should get blue more often you just give it to mid in case of disagreements. This, however, requires you putting aside your ego and acknowledging you could be wrong which is what is really driving the disagreement. You can, as you said previously, try to lay out your view and see if he changes his miind, but how often do you see that happen? Or you could as a mid laner put aside your ego and let your jungler decide what he thinks is best based on his reasoning, because that's his job and not yours.
The idea that one person considers the entire game because it's his "role" and the other is some mechanical skillshot/CS machine is what leads to Doublelift lol.
There's no reason to assume jungle has a better understanding of the overall game than mid, or vice versa.
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how is it different?
On May 21 2015 02:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
A better analogy is there are 8 blue balls and 2 purple balls in the box, you pick one out, mid says it's blue and jungler says it's purple. Either could be correct in the given instance but if you had to pick you'd say the ball is blue and you give mid laner the blue buff and you win the game.
How is that a better analogy? If there are so many situations its clear cut the mid gets blue then by that logic why not listen to the jungler when he says mid shouldn't get blue? Since it's so rare the jungler says no maybe he has more weight when he does say no?
not saying its true just that its just as valid as your argument
On May 21 2015 02:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:I found it funny how your post kept getting longer/changing every time I refreshed. Anyways. Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:48 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? I'm sorry cheep if you're not smart enough to even understand my post that doesn't mean you can automatically ignore it. part of the reason the metaphor doesnt make sense is that its just a direct port of your reasoning to another medium where you're not horribly biased Your suggestion of going with the mid laner purely because he gets blue more often (when both parties are in agreement) is just the same as suggesting that a ball you can't agree on being blue or purple is blue because more of the balls in the box are blue (where you also both agree) The fact is that there's no reason to think that the ball is blue or purple just based on the number of blue and purple balls in the box without any other information. Do you know what a heuristic is? It means you accept the fact that you will sometimes make an incorrect decision (say the ball is purple I guess lol?) because it means you will make the correct decision the majority of the time.
Except this is only relevant if you think the mid laners heuristic is better than the junglers
unless its demonstrably true the jungler should get the blue because its more effort for both parties to give blue than not to give blue
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Are we talking about NA SQ here? Because, for SQ, I just tend to prefer the route of least drama because arguments/afks about blue negates pretty much any advantage the blue will give you anyway.
If we were playing on KR/CN SQ where "default rule" is mid gets blue, then, I don't see the big issue in just giving them blue dibs.
Otherwise, going to have to take the fence on that it's situational here. I really don't even see why is there such a big argument about who deserves blue because a bunch of game states can swing away from the norm of mid gets blue.
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On May 21 2015 02:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:I found it funny how your post kept getting longer/changing every time I refreshed. Anyways. Show nested quote +On May 21 2015 02:48 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:On May 21 2015 02:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:23 Scip wrote:On May 21 2015 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 02:13 Slayer91 wrote:
i dunno whats civil about any of this all I see is cheep pants-on-head retarding more than wei2cool ever did while backpeddling like lance armstrong about his steroid useage No one has successfully disputed anything I said in a coherent manner. On May 21 2015 01:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote:
you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote:
You're saying mid should cede the blue though.
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them.
I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. So to adress a point I don't think you meant as a hyperbole (difficult to tell) you said that middle laner and jungler are equally likely to be wrong about who should get the blue, and therefore mid should get the blue because mid should is probably correct. But that's contradicting itself, you JUST SAID they are equally likely to be wrong. wtf? ? They're equally likely to be wrong about a particular instance, BUT because mid should get blue more often than jungle, in case of a 50/50 disagreement you should cede it to the guy who's more likely to be right (even if it's for the wrong reasons). that's a pretty big abuse of statistics though mid gets more often than blue and all of those times jungle agrees its like if there are 10 balls in a box and you count 7 blue and 3 purple and the other guy counts 2 purple and 8 blue you should assume its 8 blue and 2 purple because t here are more blue balls Uh...what? I'm sorry cheep if you're not smart enough to even understand my post that doesn't mean you can automatically ignore it. part of the reason the metaphor doesnt make sense is that its just a direct port of your reasoning to another medium where you're not horribly biased Your suggestion of going with the mid laner purely because he gets blue more often (when both parties are in agreement) is just the same as suggesting that a ball you can't agree on being blue or purple is blue because more of the balls in the box are blue (where you also both agree) The fact is that there's no reason to think that the ball is blue or purple just based on the number of blue and purple balls in the box without any other information. Do you know what a heuristic is? It means you accept the fact that you will sometimes make an incorrect decision (say the ball is purple I guess lol?) because it means you will make the correct decision the majority of the time.
I'm happy with my "will the midlaner immediately feed blue to the enemy y/n" heuristic.
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EPT
