EPT[Patch 5.9] Ashe Rework General Discussion - Page 34
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
It's entirely possible I played him wrong (starting gromp blue-side I failed to get to kill the red buff (after blue) before the enemy jungler reached the camp; it's also possible that I should simply only pick him purple-side (so if they start on their blue buff side they don't get a big pull like the duo lane's), or run to red after gromp and before my blue in that case; it was in ranked 5s so better coordination and people get actual pulls), but it made me curious as to what I should change, since I didn't feel that fast on just boots1+BB, always felt low on mana, and not clearing the first camps fast enough (even vs goddamn WW and Sejuani) to sneak efficiently into the enemy jungle. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 01:14 Scip wrote: Replying to the post where you said that giving blue to Katarina and Yasuo is how the game should be played, my fucking point is not fucking moot, thank you very much. If you chose to look at the argument holistically you would see I obviously didn't mean giving blue to Katarina and Yasuo (or any other champ) without question is how the game should be played. I was rather addressing the attitude that goes into the decision behind it. By necessity, a large part of the game is played heuristically. The "optimal" way to play the game, as far as we can see from competitive play up to this point, is that mid should get blue far more often than not. The heuristic simplifies to giving mid blue, whereas the prevalent NA/EU heuristic is that jungler should get blue, which is the point I'm attacking. An extreme analogy is playing a dual lane (ADC/Support usually) and deciding on farm allocation. The entire world as pretty much accepted that support should cede farm to the ADC, because that's what works the majority of the time. Heuristically, it checks out. That's to say there aren't situations where a support should get some farm - to catch up on levels, to finish a key item, etc. - but that is a harmonious understanding between all parties in the majority of cases. Mid-blue-jungle interaction should be treated similarly, but is instead much more contentious due to fundamental disagreements on who "should" get blue. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
The better statement would be that they play too selfishly to do what they know is the correct thing over the greedy thing. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On May 21 2015 01:07 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I'm pretty sure Yasuo and Katarina are not the most played champs in any case so your point is moot. True. Are you claiming the opposite? You're not allowed to call an argument weak unless you can propose a stronger alternative. To clarify- are you taking the position of "Bang unilaterally decided to take blue"? You're absolutely allowed to call an argument weak wtf? The burden of proof is on you. Unilaterally is bad word anyway. Junglers are always thinking of laners so everytime a jungler takes blue when mid could have gotten it he made the concious decision to take it instead of mid. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 21 2015 01:21 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: If you chose to look at the argument holistically you would see I obviously didn't mean giving blue to Katarina and Yasuo (or any other champ) without question is how the game should be played. I was rather addressing the attitude that goes into the decision behind it. By necessity, a large part of the game is played heuristically. The "optimal" way to play the game, as far as we can see from competitive play up to this point, is that mid should get blue far more often than not. The heuristic simplifies to giving mid blue, whereas the prevalent NA/EU heuristic is that jungler should get blue, which is the point I'm attacking. You know maybe people wouldn't think you don't know what the fuck you're talking about if pretty much every single statement you made besides the very original one wasn't a massive hyperbole or so unclear that it's almost impossible to understand. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 01:24 Slayer91 wrote: You're absolutely allowed to call an argument weak wtf? The burden of proof is on you. Unilaterally is bad word anyway. Junglers are always thinking of laners so everytime a jungler takes blue when mid could have gotten it he made the concious decision to take it instead of mid. Unilaterally applies just fine here. In this case I'm making one assertion (Ezhoon ceded blue to Bang), and since it's a binary scenario, you're by default taking the opposite (Bang took blue regardless of Ezhoon's disagreement) if you challenge my statement. On May 21 2015 01:25 Scip wrote: You know maybe people wouldn't think you don't know what the fuck you're talking about if pretty much every single statement you made besides the very original one wasn't a massive hyperbole or so unclear that it's almost impossible to understand. I mean, hyperbole is an accepted tool of rhetoric. You inability to comprehend cogent logical arguments and perfect grammatical constructions is your fault, not mine. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Obviously it should be a team decision, but in absence of that I think its obviously the junglers decision because they are the ones with the summoner to secure the objective and the time necessary to pay attention to multiple lanes and the enemy junglers and know how to optimally address that objective. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
don't worry just hyperbole bro On May 21 2015 01:29 Ketara wrote: Cheep also made the point that junglers shouldn't be making the decision of who gets blue, mids should, which I disagree with pretty strongly. Obviously it should be a team decision, but in absence of that I think its obviously the junglers decision because they are the ones with the summoner to secure the objective and the time necessary to pay attention to multiple lanes and the enemy junglers and know how to optimally address that objective. It's the junglers decision but junglers make team decisions if the jungler is taking blue most of the time theres an argument that its a bad jungling decision but mid literally always wants blue so why should he have any input its not like junglers have no idea what kind of difference a blue buff will make to a lane mid is concentrating on his lane not jungle times and jungle paths and gank timings etc asking a mid if he wants blue is like asking a guy if he wants to feel up some boobs | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 01:30 Slayer91 wrote: 99% of the world is covered in water don't worry just hyperbole bro It's the junglers decision but junglers make team decisions if the jungler is taking blue most of the time theres an argument that its a bad jungling decision but mid literally always wants blue so why should he have any input its not like junglers have no idea what kind of difference a blue buff will make to a lane For all your supposed disdain of hyperbole you engage in it yourself with "mid literally always wants blue." Your point of "if the jungler is taking blue most of the time theres an argument that its a bad jungling decision" again simplifies to mid should have blue as the default assumption. If there are compelling reasons against it mid can and should cede the blue, but "it's not like [mid laners] have no idea what kind of difference a blue buff will make to [the jungle]." mid is concentrating on his lane not jungle times and jungle paths and gank timings etc I mean, just like how a jungler has a general awareness of what goes on in lane, so should a mid laner have a general awareness of what goes on in the jungle. On May 21 2015 01:30 Slayer91 wrote: mid is concentrating on his lane not jungle times and jungle paths and gank timings etc asking a mid if he wants blue is like asking a guy if he wants to feel up some boobs So you're saying you'd deny your bro the chance to feel up some boobs? That's not cool bro. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On May 21 2015 01:17 Alaric wrote: Eh, I felt Nunu was pretty mana-hungry if you wanted to stay active (running 21-9-0, AD/armour/MR/AS) because you don't auto fast enough to make your spells free if you want to clear quickly. It's entirely possible I played him wrong (starting gromp blue-side I failed to get to kill the red buff (after blue) before the enemy jungler reached the camp; it's also possible that I should simply only pick him purple-side (so if they start on their blue buff side they don't get a big pull like the duo lane's), or run to red after gromp and before my blue in that case; it was in ranked 5s so better coordination and people get actual pulls), but it made me curious as to what I should change, since I didn't feel that fast on just boots1+BB, always felt low on mana, and not clearing the first camps fast enough (even vs goddamn WW and Sejuani) to sneak efficiently into the enemy jungle. Try more attack speed, you really want to make use of his passive, getting 5% CDR flat from blues also help tremendously. Are you making sure you use your passive on snowball? It costs a lot more than BB/Consume. I run AS/Scaling health or armor/5 CDR%+Scaling MR and either MS or flat armor quints and 9/21 (ad masteries with CDR) or 0/9/21 - basically I just copy the highest winrate Koreans and 70%+ winrate foreigners. lol (as much as it pains me to say, I actually like Bladed Armor on Nunu QQ) | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them. I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On May 20 2015 17:03 Alaric wrote: They said Shiv uses your crit% stat, not the auto crit. I don't understand what this means. Like if you have just shiv does it do 120 or 130 or 100/200 80/20%? When I tested on the PBE I thought it was 130. It could be 120 but i am near certain it wasn't 100/200 80/20. If it is 120 (and so 160 or 140 with IE and shiv) then it's holy goodness an even worse buy than I thought. Aside: when I get home tonight I will spreadsheet up some Ashe rune options to see what cN be done. And also do some testing on shiv damage. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 01:35 Scip wrote: you should have taken into account the average intelligence of the forum reader, which is much lower than yours. Big sorry. You're wrong again. The reason why whether mid or jungle should get the blue is something people disagree way more often than about who should get the farm in the duo lane is because the jungler should take the blue quite a bit more often than supports should take farm lol. That's amplified because you actually have a lot of time to think about that decision and communicate it minutes in advance. I did say it was an extreme example, but it's a difference of scale and degree and not of kind. Using completely arbitrary numbers, support should take 1 cs out of every 100 and a jungler should take 1 blue out of every 10. Similar considerations should be made, namely does what I'm doing contribute to helping my team win the team. The only difference is that ADCs and supports generally have the same number - 1/100 - in mind, whereas, again using completely arbitrary numbers, mid thinks the number is 99/100 and jungle thinks the number if 50/100. On May 21 2015 01:36 Ketara wrote: You're saying mid should cede the blue though. What you're not saying is jungle should choose to not give it to them. I'm saying its ultimately not the laners decision, its the junglers decision. We're assuming that if you're in the same game, your general skill level and understanding of the game is about on par. In that case, due to the nature of the game (mid takes blue more often than jungle), jungle should cede blue to mid in case of disagreement, because you're both equally likely to be right/wrong, so giving blue to mid is correct more often than not. If you both agree there's no problem. And if it was left to the laner to decide he'd usually choose to take the blue himself, which coincides with the correct course of action based on probabilities. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
So what you're saying is that middle lane should usually get the second blue buff, and because of that the attitude that blue buff "belongs to the middle laner" (the middle laner decides whether he should get the blue or not) is correct. And because the KR/CN players are more prone to this attitude, they have an edge over EU/NA players. Is that a fair summary of what your position is? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On May 21 2015 01:34 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: For all your supposed disdain of hyperbole you engage in it yourself with "mid literally always wants blue." Your point of "if the jungler is taking blue most of the time theres an argument that its a bad jungling decision" again simplifies to mid should have blue as the default assumption. If there are compelling reasons against it mid can and should cede the blue, but "it's not like [mid laners] have no idea what kind of difference a blue buff will make to [the jungle]." I mean, just like how a jungler has a general awareness of what goes on in lane, so should a mid laner have a general awareness of what goes on in the jungle. So you're saying you'd deny your bro the chance to feel up some boobs? That's not cool bro. i thought it'd be funny to use hyperbole in the same post isaid it was retarded LOL ypu can see how retarded it is because plenty of times mids tell jungklers to take blue | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 01:43 Scip wrote: So what you're saying is that middle lane should usually get the second blue buff, Yes and because of that the attitude that blue buff "belongs to the middle laner" (the middle laner decides whether he should get the blue or not) is correct. Yes KR/CN players are more prone to this attitude, Yes they have an edge over EU/NA players. Not quite. Is that a fair summary of what your position is? Asian solo queue is generally accepted to be more "tryhard" than NA/EU solo queue. I already proposed a possible explanation (by percentage, CN/KR players watch pro games more than NA/EU players). They seek to emulate what is proven to be optimal in a competitive environment much more than NA/EU, and this is one manifestation of that. EU/NA don't have an edge because they are more prone to this attitude, they are prone to this attitude because they have an edge (cause tryhard). On May 21 2015 01:44 Slayer91 wrote: i thought it'd be funny to use hyperbole in the same post isaid it was retarded LOL ypu can see how retarded it is because plenty of times mids tell jungklers to take blue Yeah I'm not questioning your perceptiveness, I was pointing it out for our less intelligent forum readers as per Scip's suggestion that I make things more clear and accessible.  | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On May 21 2015 01:43 Scip wrote: Ok, so it's said that in an argument one should be able to convincingly define (and defend) the other position, so let me attempt that. So what you're saying is that middle lane should usually get the second blue buff, and because of that the attitude that blue buff "belongs to the middle laner" (the middle laner decides whether he should get the blue or not) is correct. And because the KR/CN players are more prone to this attitude, they have an edge over EU/NA players. Is that a fair summary of what your position is? I think it would be more fair to say that he is saying that they are more prone to this attitude, and that reflects an underlying reason that they have an edge. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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