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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
Therefore we can assume most mid giftings will be correct outside of some freak statistical anomaly the quantitative measure is irrelevant because it depends on the situation and meta with katarina mid are going to give different measures than metas with orianna mids | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 05:30 Slayer91 wrote: Since masters has a skill level much higher than all lower divisions we can assume players who make correct decisions will be in that elo Therefore we can assume most mid giftings will be correct the quantitative measure is irrelevant because it depends on the situation and meta with katarina mid are going to give different measures than metas with orianna mids Well you can assume that over a large number of games, because everyone is doing the correct thing most of the time, you can arrive at a rate that's close to a theoretical ideal, to which gifting rates in other elos/divisions/regions can be compared. On May 21 2015 05:31 Scip wrote: No. Do you think I need a quantitative measure of the rate of blue buff gifts, since the conclusion is based upon my (admittedly very good) judgment of when middle lane should get blue buff anyway? No I'm asking for an empirical rate to apply to other elos/regions/etc. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On May 21 2015 05:25 Slayer91 wrote: sample size of 25 and loaded question being entitled to blue and "entitled" to blue are different a 0/5 orianna isnt entitled to blue It's not ironic at all. I generally think jungler shouldn't take blue BUT if your mid laner is doing blue buff on his own (lik in the opposite situation of taking red and drive by smite) then you should let him have it because of the large investment unless he's like katarina and trolling I don't understand the difference between entitled and 'entitled' unless you're just saying it in a mocking way the second time. If Ori is 0/5 she still probably deserves Blue in general unless she is walking into tower or something IMO. | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
winner writes a blue buff treaty were they dictate who gets blue buff under what circumstance | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
And yeah that poll is super biased because of the use of the word entitled. You can be entitled to make the wrong decision, you are still entitled to it. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On May 21 2015 05:31 Ansibled wrote: I don't understand the difference between entitled and 'entitled.' If Ori is 0/5 she still probably deserves Blue unless she is walking into tower or something IMO. A 0/5 mid laner is very likely to die 1v1 or by ANY gank or roam because of how little damage potential she has also going to feed the enemy 5-0 mid laner blue buff meanwhile what value does she get if she doesn't feed it? Maybe more creep score but she's going to get zoned anyway, you can most likely get a much higher value as a jungler On May 21 2015 05:31 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Well you can assume that over a large number of games, because everyone is doing the correct thing most of the time, you can arrive at a rate that's close to a theoretical ideal, to which gifting rates in other elos/divisions/regions can be compared. No I'm asking for an empirical rate to apply to other elos/regions/etc. Is there any way to datamine that statistic from the game? If there is you don't need scips data | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 05:34 Scip wrote: No, I do not have an empirical rate. I could tell you that the rules I listed above are in at least 50% of the cases applied in all games I've played so far, which is definitely closer to the ideal than the much broader generalization than giving blue to middle whenever he asks for it. Do you not remember what happens in your games? On May 21 2015 05:33 Slayer91 wrote: A 0/5 mid laner is very likely to die 1v1 or by ANY gank or roam because of how little damage potential she has also going to feed the enemy 5-0 mid laner blue buff meanwhile what value does she get if she doesn't feed it? Maybe more creep score but she's going to get zoned anyway, you can most likely get a much higher value as a jungler Is there any way to datamine that statistic from the game? If there is you don't need scips data As far I know, no? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
for example eve and olaf are pretty mana hungry because of spell spam On May 21 2015 05:35 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Do you not remember what happens in your games? As far I know, no? then why aer you asking for low sample size data which can't be compared to any significant sample size data unless you survey like 100 players over 100 games each from all 4 regions with a good spread of elo and even then its weak players are going to be either giving blue too much or too little so its going to vary from jungler to jungler | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 05:36 Slayer91 wrote: Scip is playing a specific subset of champions which is going to skew the data anyway for example eve and olaf are pretty mana hungry because of spell spam Assuming Scip doesn't jungle every game we can normalize it with what he observes when he's not playing jungle. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
I do jungle every game. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On May 21 2015 05:37 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Assuming Scip doesn't jungle every game we can normalize it with what he observes when he's not playing jungle. scip jungles every game and dodges the rest at any rate is low sample size and by teamcomps its pretty easy to guess that some champs get 90% of 2nd blues and some champs get 0% of 2nd blues | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 05:37 Scip wrote: I remember what half the junglers in my games do, that's what my data is based off of. Granted it's a very biased sample. I'm just not sure what you're arguing against? That taking into account more specifics leads to better decision making? Or are you making a somewhat unrelated inquiry about just how much blue buff gets given to middle laners? I do jungle every game. It's an unrelated inquiry that's tangential to the original discussion(s). What a hero. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
more on spam champs less on assassins | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On May 21 2015 05:40 Slayer91 wrote: Anyway I would ball park 3/4 or more blues get gifted on a mana champ and 0/4 on manaless more on spam champs less on assassins Where does Zed fall? You stated earlier Zed should probably get blue, especially later on. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 21 2015 05:40 Slayer91 wrote: Anyway I would ball park 3/4 or more blues get gifted on a mana champ and 0/4 on manaless more on spam champs less on assassins Sounds approximately right. Manaless might occasionally get blue when the jungler doesn't use blue either (Lee Sin, Rek'Sai...) especially when it's Zed mid. My very general rule is Zed doesn't get 2nd blue but often gets the rest. I'm not sure what general rule other junglers use though to be honest, especially because I haven't seen Zed in ages. But I don't remember seeing him get blue often at all. | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On May 21 2015 05:41 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Where does Zed fall? You stated earlier Zed should probably get blue, especially later on. It's like a step function once he gets fed and starts split pushing suddenly the energy regen and cdr for escapes with shadows become way more important before that its not that big a deal | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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