[Patch 4.11] Maokai Rework General Discussion - Page 62

PrinceXizor

United States17713 Posts

July 12 2014 10:35 GMT

#1221

On July 12 2014 19:24 Redox wrote:

We need proper coaches? So what team are you on?

Just saying it is easy to talk if it is not you that is affected.

If you have to be on a pro team to access whats wrong with the system or what needs adjusting, then riot wouldn't be allowed to even start the pro scene in the first place would they?

Prog

United Kingdom1470 Posts

July 12 2014 10:58 GMT

#1222

Pretty difficult to judge coaches correctly when no outsider really knows what they are doing though.

nafta

Bulgaria18893 Posts

July 12 2014 12:32 GMT

#1223

Problem is there is no place for coaches to prove themselves.I can fully understand why froggen wouldn't listen to a random person who tells him what to do yet the only way to prove himself is if people listen to him.There is just no off-season or any place where teams can try stuff.Especially now with worlds qualification being so close.

Also some people don't understand that when some players say they wanna be the best and beat koreans they are just bs-ing so it makes sense for them to just do their own thing.

beefhamburger

United States3962 Posts

July 12 2014 12:50 GMT

#1224

On July 12 2014 14:31 GozoShioda wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 12 2014 08:54 Ryuu314 wrote:

On July 12 2014 07:40 Gahlo wrote:

On July 12 2014 07:30 Ryuu314 wrote:

On July 12 2014 06:51 Gahlo wrote:

On July 12 2014 06:28 GozoShioda wrote:
I don't think it's possible for NA/EU teams to ever actually reach the level of Korean teams until the money goes in the right direction, like for example proper coaches (not guys who used to be pro players and get a haircut on a tournament stream as part of a marketing ploy, but actual coaches aka people who have proper managing skills). As long as streaming and the marketing aspect is far more profitable in the western scene, it doesn't matter what kind of players you get (veterans/fresh/koreans), they will still develop bad habits because all these Western organizations are enablers. NA players probably spend as much time streaming, posting on reddit/twitter that koreans spend scrimming.

There are no proper coaches in the west. Old players retiring and turning into coaches is how the whole situation in Korea has got how it is today. If the west is going to "catch up," it needs to go through the same growing pains. However, the west has the benefit of emulating something that is pre-existant as opposed to fumbling around in the dark.

If you think NA players really spend that much time doing non-league related activities and Koreans play that little soloq, you're delusional.

We're seeing a several of the old guard becoming coaches in the West. Off the top of my head I can think of Loco and Scarra. Dig is now #1 team in NA - sure, picking up Zion and Shiptur definitely helped, but I don't think having Scarra as coach is completely inconsequential. TSM have also been somewhat improving post-Loco. It's hard to attribute what's helping more - Loco or TSM simply gelling as a team since almost half their roster is new.

Coaches =/= managers. In Korea, many teams have both. Coaches who were former pro players that basically "teach" the players how to play plus managers who keep the team in check.

The point is that Scarra and Loco aren't proper coaches. Not yet anyway.

You brought up coaches, I commented on it. Nobody said anything about managers. Most teams have had managers for a while now. However, like coaches, a lot of these people aren't proper managers.

wtf is a "proper" coach or "proper" manager

Loco and Scarra have just as much if not more playing experience as say Kkoma. Maybe they're not as experienced as coaches, but that hardly disqualifies them.

Froggen himself said on summoning insight that he would not want a "head coach" or someone in charge of him who is below Diamond V (what the flying fuck does a person's solo Q rank have anything to do with his ability to manage a team of young adults to maximize efficiency of their daily tasks and activities???). Face it, the players run these organizations, because they are not indispensable in the same way that Korean players are. Yellowpete himself said that he gets to wake up whenever he wants and so does the rest of the team (he used to wake up at 11am while the rest of the team was up around 9am). No NA team has a curfew in place, I'd be willing to bet money on that. While every KeSPA has a team curfew.

This is why we need "proper" coaches/managers.

Let's bet money on that, because I know for sure at least one team has a curfew (one of the top 5 in fact).

And also having someone as a coach above diamond V makes sense, you want them to at least have some significant knowledge of the game for direction. However, it doesn't sound like Froggen was talking about managers. Solo Q rank doesn't matter for managers. Coach =/= Manager. Coaches will have more input on ingame decisions and teamplay whereas managers handle activities of daily living and schedules. i.e. CLG - Monte as head coach, Kelby as manager

Prog

United Kingdom1470 Posts

July 12 2014 12:58 GMT

#1225

I don't think any professional football (soccer) team has a curfew in regular season (if at all), so I don't see why that should be relevant at all. If someone is late for or tired at training/games and therefore cannot bring his a-game he will be talked to and probably penalized, but the idea that a curfew would be something necessary is laughable.

Dandel Ion

Austria17960 Posts

July 12 2014 13:30 GMT

#1226

I don't think that's a good point of reference

it's only physically possible to practice football for so long, so as long as you show up for those what, 4 hours?, you're golden. video games don't have that demand on the body so you can also practice them a lot longer.

Numy

South Africa35471 Posts

July 12 2014 13:32 GMT

#1227

On July 12 2014 22:30 Dandel Ion wrote:
I don't think that's a good point of reference

it's only physically possible to practice football for so long, so as long as you show up for those what, 4 hours?, you're golden. video games don't have that demand on the body so you can also practice them a lot longer.

That's not really true. You still have mental strain and physical strain(Even if it's not as much). Practicing for 8 hours solids isn't really worth it. Potentially has negative impact too.

PrinceXizor

United States17713 Posts

July 12 2014 13:39 GMT

#1228

On July 12 2014 21:50 beefhamburger wrote:
Let's bet money on that, because I know for sure at least one team has a curfew (one of the top 5 in fact).

And also having someone as a coach above diamond V makes sense, you want them to at least have some significant knowledge of the game for direction. However, it doesn't sound like Froggen was talking about managers. Solo Q rank doesn't matter for managers. Coach =/= Manager. Coaches will have more input on ingame decisions and teamplay whereas managers handle activities of daily living and schedules. i.e. CLG - Monte as head coach, Kelby as manager

thats not even opening the can of worms that pub play is not competitive play so how good you are as a pub player doesn't really influence how good of a competitive mind you are.

On July 12 2014 21:58 Prog wrote:
I don't think any professional football (soccer) team has a curfew in regular season (if at all), so I don't see why that should be relevant at all. If someone is late for or tired at training/games and therefore cannot bring his a-game he will be talked to and probably penalized, but the idea that a curfew would be something necessary is laughable.

american football is a probably a better example than soccer. soccer players can be easily sold between teams and even leagues. but american football you are either in the NFL or you are playing a different game (CFL/arena league have different rules). in addition its much harder to get rid of a player during the season in the nfl compared to euro football (soccer).

american football players don't have a curfew in the off season, but they are expected to show up for training camp at 6 am for "voluntary" team warmups. not showing up affects whether or not you make the team or get cut as well as your starting position. its hard to be out partying during training camps when you are working out for 8 hours, and then have to get up for practice again at 5 am to be at practice by 6.

during the season they are given curfews 2 nights before the game or more depending on the coach, bye weeks are a bit more lax but still the 2 nights rule.

there are "voluntary" rules and there are mandatory rules, most curfews are "voluntary" but they aren't really voluntary.

due to the small roster size of LCS teams, coaches can't enforce the same strictness that they have in american football teams with a 90 man roster but only 24 starters.

Badboyrune

Sweden2247 Posts

July 12 2014 14:07 GMT

#1229

On July 12 2014 22:32 Numy wrote:

Show nested quote +

That's not really true. You still have mental strain and physical strain(Even if it's not as much). Practicing for 8 hours solids isn't really worth it. Potentially has negative impact too.

As evidenced by the fact that Koreans following these over the years in multiple games has never given them any edge skillwise.

Numy

South Africa35471 Posts

July 12 2014 14:14 GMT

#1230

On July 12 2014 23:07 Badboyrune wrote:

Show nested quote +

As evidenced by the fact that Koreans following these over the years in multiple games has never given them any edge skillwise.

Except they don't seem to do this at all. Most of what I've seen and read about the big korean kespa teams is that they advocate a healthy living for their players along side practicing the game. They also dedicate a lot of the time for reviewing and discussing the game. Only really the BW B teamers seemed to have the mindless grind.

PrinceXizor

United States17713 Posts

July 12 2014 14:25 GMT

#1231

On July 12 2014 23:14 Numy wrote:

Except they don't seem to do this at all. Most of what I've seen and read about the big korean kespa teams is that they advocate a healthy living for their players along side practicing the game. They also dedicate a lot of the time for reviewing and discussing the game. Only really the BW B teamers seemed to have the mindless grind.

they also took all the rest of stresses of life out of the lives of the players. someone cooked cleaned and helped them with everything outside of the game. its easy to excel when everything but your focus is taken care of.

wei2coolman

United States60033 Posts

July 12 2014 16:09 GMT

#1232

All this talking about coaches makes me impressed how much the NA scene has improved in regards to infrastructure. I remember a year ago we would have scoffed at the notion of NA teams giving up their freedoms to be more competitive in NA LCS, but damn things have changed. All the teams now have coaches and analysts. Most of them have pretty strict practice schedules, and stuff. NA scene really cleaned up their act.

Disengaged

United States6994 Posts

July 12 2014 22:50 GMT

#1233

Coaches smoaches is what I say

Frolossus

United States4779 Posts

July 12 2014 23:03 GMT

#1234

On July 12 2014 03:35 ticklishmusic wrote:
IDK, I feel that a lot of the older pros like Scarra don't bring much more value to a new team than some high challenger. Far as skill goes there probably isn't a significant difference and since it's a 4+1 scenario integration presents approximately the same challenge.

Plus you won't have stuff like "well back when I was on Dig, this is how we did X".

i feel like tournament/big event experience is more useful than a random challenger cause a lot of challenger players aren't used to tournament settings

iCanada

Canada10660 Posts

July 12 2014 23:12 GMT

#1235

You guys know the big clamoring from DotA fans about item active effects?

Wouldn't it be cool if Riot put an item in that reset summoner CDs? You could make it relatively expensive and uncost effective (maybe have it cost 3k gold with 2k gold worth of survivability / cdr / runspeed kind of stats) and I think it would do great things for the game. Mainly, would kill the huge mobility creep problem. If I could flash every teamfight suddenly you can play a ton more champions... immobile adcs, immobile tanks, mages etc

Perplex

United States1693 Posts

July 12 2014 23:24 GMT

#1236

Would someone mind "catching me up" on how the meta has shifted since the last time I played? I want to return to LoL but the last time I played was right before Vel'Koz was released. I typically play mid or jungle if that matters. Thanks!

Gorsameth

Netherlands21342 Posts

July 12 2014 23:29 GMT

#1237

On July 13 2014 08:12 iCanada wrote:
You guys know the big clamoring from DotA fans about item active effects?

Wouldn't it be cool if Riot put an item in that reset summoner CDs? You could make it relatively expensive and uncost effective (maybe have it cost 3k gold with 2k gold worth of survivability / cdr / runspeed kind of stats) and I think it would do great things for the game. Mainly, would kill the huge mobility creep problem. If I could flash every teamfight suddenly you can play a ton more champions... immobile adcs, immobile tanks, mages etc

And what would that solve? When is your adc going to spend 3k gold on something like that? Bruisers are much more likely to be able to spend that money while doing their job so it actually increases the vulnerability of low mobility champions even more.And that's before we start talking about how it will unbalance perfectly fine bits of the game.

No. its a terrible idea.

obesechicken13

United States10467 Posts

July 12 2014 23:52 GMT

#1238

Refresher orb in LoL would mean fiddle can perma fear you which is something Riot wants to prevent.

I think powerful item actives are cool though. It's hard to come back in LoL because the other team has 20% more damage and tankiness than yours so even if they make a mistake or you get a good initiate, they win the fight.

Frolossus

United States4779 Posts

July 13 2014 00:04 GMT

#1239

does anyone else struggle to keep up with the current pro scene due to the seasonal format of LCS?
pre-LCS it was more like i could tune in for a weekend and watch IGN/dreamhack or whatever then it ended and we moved to the next event. with LCS i find it difficult to keep track of how well teams are playing over the course of the whole season.

miicah

Australia2470 Posts

July 13 2014 00:04 GMT

#1240

Aghs, force staff or scythe of vyse would probably be the only items that could work in LoL. What I'd like to see is Riot improving their summoned unit control and implement something like lone druid.

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