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On March 17 2014 14:15 Nemireck wrote:
For once I kinda agree with PX here.
Like, why SHOULDN'T I be able to itemize a sustainable-damage "ADC" with enough defensive stats to survive longer than 3 seconds against Renekton, but enough damage that, given the 10-15 seconds I survive, I can actually deal a significant amount of damage?
Because that is Renektons job. "Fighters" are designed in such a way as they are exemplary 1v1 champions
League is designed around team fighting. If it was the case that a champion who was not fed and was also ranged could build in such a way to 1 v 1 melee champs then the team fight design would not be working just as it is the case that melee auto attack carries have the same problem and are basically prevented from existing because of it.
Edit: think of it like a calculus problem. Ignoring sustain for a second it is the case that the best "1v1" stat distribution is an even mix of damage and tank. This is because a 1% increase in dps is equivalent, in a 1v1, as living 1% longer. (Abstracting burst and other discreetness). If it was the case that teams could perfectly choose their targets then the optimal team fight strategy would be to have everyone optimize as if it were a 1v1 because building too much tank gets you ignored and building too much dps gets you focused.
But it's not the case that teams can choose focus targets like that and because of this different champions have different roles in teamfights. Melee champions, because everyone can easily focus them must have better raw "dps/tank" stats than ranged champions unless they have hard ways of making enemies respect their zone. Similarly the melee champions who are primarily tanks need to have enough base damage that if they only build tanky they will be damage threats to any single enemy on the other team. If they are not then they cannot prevent the enemy from focusing as they want to and lose the fight for their team.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 17 2014 13:56 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 13:49 Kupon3ss wrote:
There actually isn't, assassins by their design are either
1. can QWER 100-0 something - OP
2. can't QWER 100-0 something - useless do you orientate your real life around bashing games you don't like to peoples faces to or is it just something you do on tl
lol now you're just being an ass because it's kupon. There are regular LoL sub posters who have said the exact same thing before.
On March 17 2014 14:35 PrinceXizor wrote:
It could be as simple as making cost efficient items not be slot efficient. and vice versa. going all out offense would be cost prohibitive so you would rely on some of the cost efficient items to fill in gaps, cost efficient items that provide a mix between offense and defense. If hexdrinker cost only 1100 total and maw cost 22-2300 total and Atmas changes to 25 damage + .75% of max hp instead of just flat 1.5% while dropping the cost by 300-500. while IE cost 4000 and BT cost 3500 people would be more likely to buy the hexdrinkers and carry them over to maw throughout the game. you could still go for the big items to be slot efficient and grow in power by larger chunks, but the cost efficient mixed offense/defense itemization would allow more flexibility. but that'd create situations where champions have less uniform power curves and thats anti riot. obviously the exact suggestions i offered don't matter, but the concepts behind them could help for sure.
Riot usually dislikes the secondary implications of itemization like that, which is why whenever appropriate itemization for this kind of play it's quickly nerfed.
Incidentally before the Malady/Wits remakes, Kog was actually an interesting use case for this, given that Malady+Wits actually had more powerful early offensive timings than comparable AD items (items like BT, IE, and PD have poor single-item timings and are stronger with 1-2 more additional items while the Malady and Wits timings are both strong on their own) and could be paired with a team defensive item. The S3 Malady/Wits remakes killed this possibility, though.
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On March 17 2014 15:01 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 14:15 Nemireck wrote:
For once I kinda agree with PX here.
Like, why SHOULDN'T I be able to itemize a sustainable-damage "ADC" with enough defensive stats to survive longer than 3 seconds against Renekton, but enough damage that, given the 10-15 seconds I survive, I can actually deal a significant amount of damage?
Because that is Renektons job. "Fighters" are designed in such a way as they are exemplary 1v1 champions League is designed around team fighting. If it was the case that a champion who was not fed and was also ranged could build in such a way to 1 v 1 melee champs then the team fight design would not be working just as it is the case that melee auto attack carries have the same problem and are basically prevented from existing because of it.
More then that, it's just the way items in league function on a very basic level. In LoL, items stack multiplicatively, You have stats like crit which get exponentially better the more you get. An adc with ie bt lw would get a much large dps boost from then buying a phantom dancer, then an adc who only has bt would get from buying a pd, because attack speed is more effective if you have a lot of crit and damage, and vice versa.
Same with defensive items, so if you already have sunfire and warmogs, randuins will give you a much larger boost to your tankiness then if you had a deathcap and a void staff. The more health you have the better resists are, and the more resists you have the better health is, and since basically all tank items give health and resists, each tank item you buy makes you exponentially more tanky.
This rewards going full damage, or full tank, and makes a "2 ad 3 tank" draven build impossible, because if 2 ad item draven did decent damage, 4 or 5 item draven would by default be broken as fuck. This means that deviating from building ad items is a lot more costly then just losing one item, the difference between a 3 item adc and a 4 item adc is a very inflated % less damage. And the fact that the damage is inflated so much means that even small reductions in damage in return for utility get inflated to much larger differences in dps.
The only way to force situational item buys on a character who's sole job is to maximise dps through crit would be to make items which straight up do different damage depending on the opponent. Botrk is an example of this, and it's sort of working, as it does more damage to tanks then bt, but less damage to squishies. Throw in the utility active (and the difference between more autos and better scaling for ablities) and you have an actual choice you can make on some adc's which aren't too reliant on insane ad ratios. Another is pd vs shiv, where one provides more single target, while the other provides aoe.
I'm having a hard time thinking of other tricks they could do without having to introduce an entirely new way of defining damage (after %hp.) Things like damage based off enemy mana usage, or damage based off enemy mobility or damage seem like the kind of things riot tries to avoid so I'm not sure where to go from here. But either way, the next two items which need alternatives are likely ie and lw. (the alternative crit increasing item probably being easier to make, as bruisers won't just appropriate crit items like they do pen or lifesteal.)
Whether you like it or not, it's just the way league itemization is fundamentally designed.
edit: well crap, someone said a better version of what i was trying to say on the last page. I should really check for that next time.
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On March 17 2014 15:01 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 14:15 Nemireck wrote:
For once I kinda agree with PX here.
Like, why SHOULDN'T I be able to itemize a sustainable-damage "ADC" with enough defensive stats to survive longer than 3 seconds against Renekton, but enough damage that, given the 10-15 seconds I survive, I can actually deal a significant amount of damage?
Because that is Renektons job. "Fighters" are designed in such a way as they are exemplary 1v1 champions League is designed around team fighting. If it was the case that a champion who was not fed and was also ranged could build in such a way to 1 v 1 melee champs then the team fight design would not be working just as it is the case that melee auto attack carries have the same problem and are basically prevented from existing because of it.
I'm sorry, but I think that's just a lazy answer. "Because that's Renekton's job" doesn't even begin to deal with the actual problem, which is that almost to a champion, you are FORCED down a specific item line that allows for no (or very little) deviation from the "optimum" 6-item build.
I should not only be ABLE to choose between IE, or Frozen Mallet on an ADC, but also FORCED to make that decision based on what's happening during the game, and pay (or be rewarded) for making that choice. In contrast, if I'm playin an ADC and I build FM instead of IE, I am wrong, 100% of the time. This is a PROBLEM from my point of view. And to say "Well FM is for fighters and IE is for Marksmen" is a LAZY answer that only helps to exemplify the issue, rather than explain it away.
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On March 17 2014 15:11 TheYango wrote:
Riot usually dislikes the secondary implications of itemization like that, which is why whenever appropriate itemization for this kind of play it's quickly nerfed.
Incidentally before the Malady/Wits remakes, Kog was actually an interesting use case for this, given that Malady+Wits actually had more powerful early offensive timings than comparable AD items (items like BT, IE, and PD have poor single-item timings and are stronger with 1-2 more additional items while the Malady and Wits timings are both strong on their own) and could be paired with a team defensive item. The S3 Malady/Wits remakes killed this possibility, though.
IT feels like riot usually dislikes the implications of anything. I'm fairly certain at this point you can go back through posts and find an official riot stance that they dislike every type of champion and item in the game by now.
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yes , and that's something called being a part of a
something-somethinged meta (as to not cause certain members of the lol staff any more aneurysms)
~_~
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On March 17 2014 14:37 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 14:21 nafta wrote:
There are champs that do damage without many items they just aren't ranged who are auto focused.Being ranged is a rather big advantage that you cant really ignore. But when every tank and assassin in the game comes with a built-in gap closer, it kinda makes that "range" a useless advantage to begin with. It severely limits the AD champion pool to those that come with escapes. I mean, to get 2 free hits until Renekton starts chasing you or Leblanc 100-0's your ass kind of makes that range "advantage" a moot point. You're now not only stuck building BT, Greaves, PD, LW, IE, GA... but NOW you can only do it using a handful of AD champs that also happen to have an escape in their kit. Caitlyn, Tristana, Vayne, Lucian, etc. Thereby not only making the itemization terrible, but also limiting the champions that are actually viable in the the competitive scene.
Your range isn't useless. You can stay out of their gap closer range and wait until they burn it on someone else. Then you can hit him but the melees can't hit back. The reason why ADCs with no escape have more damage is because they are expected to attack less often. However, they can react to the enemy front lines action accordingly. If they want to chase you all the way home, you can just rely on spells and dont get in range of their gap closer. Better yet someone else stuns them and you get free damage off. However, if they decide to ignore you and gap close on an ally, you are now free to destroy him without any fear of damage in return.
However, if you build half damage, half tanky then the enemy can choose to ignore you and focus on your mage or simply peel for their own carries. CC is also factored into this as well. Even if you can take more damage, your damage output will be further reduced by CCs. You most likely won't die but your team will melt before you can finish off that frontline.
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On March 17 2014 15:16 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 15:01 Goumindong wrote:On March 17 2014 14:15 Nemireck wrote:
For once I kinda agree with PX here.
Like, why SHOULDN'T I be able to itemize a sustainable-damage "ADC" with enough defensive stats to survive longer than 3 seconds against Renekton, but enough damage that, given the 10-15 seconds I survive, I can actually deal a significant amount of damage?
Because that is Renektons job. "Fighters" are designed in such a way as they are exemplary 1v1 champions League is designed around team fighting. If it was the case that a champion who was not fed and was also ranged could build in such a way to 1 v 1 melee champs then the team fight design would not be working just as it is the case that melee auto attack carries have the same problem and are basically prevented from existing because of it. I'm sorry, but I think that's just a lazy answer. "Because that's Renekton's job" doesn't even begin to deal with the actual problem, which is that almost to a champion, you are FORCED down a specific item line that allows for no (or very little) deviation from the "optimum" 6-item build. I should not only be ABLE to choose between IE, or Frozen Mallet on an ADC, but also FORCED to make that decision based on what's happening during the game, and pay (or be rewarded) for making that choice. In contrast, if I'm playin an ADC and I build FM instead of IE, I am wrong, 100% of the time. This is a PROBLEM from my point of view. And to say "Well FM is for fighters and IE is for Marksmen" is a LAZY answer that only helps to exemplify the issue, rather than explain it away.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around what you're upset about.
FM over IE is bad on an ADC because the utility for ADC's provided by FM isn't worth sacrificing one of the most slot & gold efficient AD items in the game.
Certain items on champs are "good" or "bad" depending on their kits and being able to buy whatever item you want that is slightly relevant is not good for the game. IE/Shiv/PD being viable items on Renekton would fuck up how stats work because nothing on his kit scales with attack speed (other than Fury) and crit. If any item that doesn't suit a kit is suddenly worth getting, then it's going to be broken on the champs the item is designed for.
FM/Sunfire/Randuins on ADC is bad because they generally have amazing scaling with damage and almost none with defensive stats. If you can buy 1500g of Defensive or Offensive items and you get 1500g worth of Defensive stats vs 2500g worth of Offensive stats, why are you not buying as much Offensive stats as you can get away with? IE isn't good on ADC just because IE is an ADC item, it's good because ADC kits scale well with Crit Damage, Crit, and AD and a lot of other champs don't.
The thought process that you want in purchasing items situationally is already in the game on choosing to buy Banshee's Veil vs a full damage build. If you want to build bruiser items on an ADC, you're going to get less gold in terms of stats. The only way for these items to be worth buying on ADCs is when they get random damage reductions and shields in their kit like Urgot does.
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On March 17 2014 15:16 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 15:01 Goumindong wrote:On March 17 2014 14:15 Nemireck wrote:
For once I kinda agree with PX here.
Like, why SHOULDN'T I be able to itemize a sustainable-damage "ADC" with enough defensive stats to survive longer than 3 seconds against Renekton, but enough damage that, given the 10-15 seconds I survive, I can actually deal a significant amount of damage?
Because that is Renektons job. "Fighters" are designed in such a way as they are exemplary 1v1 champions League is designed around team fighting. If it was the case that a champion who was not fed and was also ranged could build in such a way to 1 v 1 melee champs then the team fight design would not be working just as it is the case that melee auto attack carries have the same problem and are basically prevented from existing because of it. More then that, it's just the way items in league function on a very basic level. In LoL, items stack multiplicatively, You have stats like crit which get exponentially better the more you get. An adc with ie bt lw would get a much large dps boost from then buying a phantom dancer, then an adc who only has bt would get from buying a pd, because attack speed is more effective if you have a lot of crit and damage, and vice versa. Same with defensive items, so if you already have sunfire and warmogs, randuins will give you a much larger boost to your tankiness then if you had a deathcap and a void staff. The more health you have the better resists are, and the more resists you have the better health is, and since basically all tank items give health and resists, each tank item you buy makes you exponentially more tanky. This rewards going full damage, or full tank, and makes a "2 ad 3 tank" draven build impossible, because if 2 ad item draven did decent damage, 4 or 5 item draven would by default be broken as fuck. This means that deviating from building ad items is a lot more costly then just losing one item, the difference between a 3 item adc and a 4 item adc is a very inflated % less damage. Whether you like it or not, it's just the way league itemization is fundamentally designed. edit: well crap, someone said a better version of what i was trying to say on the last page. I should really check for that next time.
Actually that isn't true. While it is true that items stack multiplicatively they do so across types as well as within types. Why can renekton start the game with a Hydra? Its because his damage threat matters and tanky items by increasing how long he is able to do dps multiply his effectiveness.
Tanky items on ADCs aren't bad, they just aren't good before your primary damage items because without damage who cares if you build tanky? The enemy will just kill you last. In a situation where you are taking damage tank and dps items generally increase your effectiveness the same amount. In a situation where you're not taking damage damage items increase your effectiveness more while tank items don't. In a situation where you have a team behind you doing damage and you're taking date tanky items are more effective.
The fact that damage and tank items have multiplicative scaling (though damage more so than tank; tank has a raw early game effectiveness advantage) is pretty irrelevant(though potentially necessary to have squishy champions be viable). What matters more is the position within your team.
@Nemireck
Look buying BV or Malet first instead of IE/BT is a bad idea and it should be. If the "maximum sustained damage dealer" can get away with buying tank items first then the have to be OP. If that champion were not OP then the enemy team would ignore you in team fights because the enemy primary sustained dps wasn't doing any. If their adc built damage they must have an advantage in that fight and if they don't something is broke.
That being said it's actually not a bad idea to get a tanky item on an adc early if you're ahead and still laning and it doesn't unnecessarily terribly slow your itemization (it's why everyone went double or triple Dorans in s3). A ruby crystal builds into BVand can definitely turn 2v2 fights where you can't guarantee good target priority. But you can't go much further than that because if you do you're building to lose team fights and it must be this way or the champion you're playing is OP and needs to be nerfed.
Edit: literally you don't get to do this because it is renektons job to be able to take a lot of damage and not be useless at the same time. If it was your job you would not be playing a sustained dps champion.
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On March 17 2014 13:49 Kupon3ss wrote:
There actually isn't, assassins by their design are either
1. can QWER 100-0 something - OP
2. can't QWER 100-0 something - useless
Or QWER 100-25, and your team executes, you have enough defensive item to do a second rotation 5 sec laters.
that's essentially how current Bug is playing out with his ulti.
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On March 17 2014 15:16 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 15:01 Goumindong wrote:On March 17 2014 14:15 Nemireck wrote:
For once I kinda agree with PX here.
Like, why SHOULDN'T I be able to itemize a sustainable-damage "ADC" with enough defensive stats to survive longer than 3 seconds against Renekton, but enough damage that, given the 10-15 seconds I survive, I can actually deal a significant amount of damage?
Because that is Renektons job. "Fighters" are designed in such a way as they are exemplary 1v1 champions League is designed around team fighting. If it was the case that a champion who was not fed and was also ranged could build in such a way to 1 v 1 melee champs then the team fight design would not be working just as it is the case that melee auto attack carries have the same problem and are basically prevented from existing because of it. I'm sorry, but I think that's just a lazy answer. "Because that's Renekton's job" doesn't even begin to deal with the actual problem, which is that almost to a champion, you are FORCED down a specific item line that allows for no (or very little) deviation from the "optimum" 6-item build. I should not only be ABLE to choose between IE, or Frozen Mallet on an ADC, but also FORCED to make that decision based on what's happening during the game, and pay (or be rewarded) for making that choice. In contrast, if I'm playin an ADC and I build FM instead of IE, I am wrong, 100% of the time. This is a PROBLEM from my point of view. And to say "Well FM is for fighters and IE is for Marksmen" is a LAZY answer that only helps to exemplify the issue, rather than explain it away.
I disagree. Why is it a problem that roles have different itemization paths? Because that's essentially what it boils down to. AD carries build differently than Bruisers and certain items are designed to be optimal on different roles. If AD carries could build tank items and still be the insane dps machines they are, that'd be OP. Likewise, if bruisers could build pure offensive items and still be ridiculously tanky, they'd be OP as well.
I also don't agree that slot/cost efficiency is part of the reason behind this. Rather, the reason behind roles trending towards a single optimal build is because of Riot's fundamental item design. They opted for multiplicative scaling in their items, which will absolutely cause streamlined builds no matter what.
Contrast it to Dota. In Dota, each individual item is extremely powerful, but with specific things they do. The damage/stats they give are almost always secondary to the effect they give. This means you generally have more "choice" in what to buy depending on the game. Not cause of slot or cost efficiency, but simply because you need the unique ability the item offers. League chooses to go a different route in item design - items are generally just chunks of stats with neat modifiers here and there. This causes streamlined builds for most roles in the game because that's how you become most effective in that role.
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No. In Dota its because every item gives tankiness and damage at the same time as long as you buy your primary stat. And because in Dota they're ok with hyper carries
These are things which league has gotten past as they have refined the team aspect of their game.
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On March 17 2014 16:59 Goumindong wrote:
No. In Dota its because every item gives tankiness and damage at the same time as long as you buy your primary stat. And because in Dota they're ok with hyper carries
These are things which league has gotten past as they have refined the team aspect of their game.
holy shit i laughed at this
ur wrong btw
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On March 17 2014 17:39 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 16:59 Goumindong wrote:
No. In Dota its because every item gives tankiness and damage at the same time as long as you buy your primary stat. And because in Dota they're ok with hyper carries
These are things which league has gotten past as they have refined the team aspect of their game. holy shit i laughed at this ur wrong btw
Its like Zileas made a TL account.
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On March 17 2014 16:59 Goumindong wrote:
No. In Dota its because every item gives tankiness and damage at the same time as long as you buy your primary stat. And because in Dota they're ok with hyper carries
These are things which league has gotten past as they have refined the team aspect of their game.
I wish every item in DOTA gave me tankiness and damage! Then I could play Sniper in his true role. Initiator! /s
And why is being "Ok" with hyper carries a bad thing here? You make it seem as though the game is inately weaker from a design point, when in actuality without them games would likely not END. Siegeing high ground is much harder to do in DOTA than it is in league simply because of how much damage and power is being thrown around.
Plus the games are apples and oranges, the only thing they share is a SLIGHTLY similar map layout, 5 people on each side, some jungle creeps, some lane creeps, and some towers. Everything else has quite of bit of difference.
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Regarding multiplicative stats, isn't it the same in DotA anyway? As in, damage x AS x modifier from crit = dps, and armour (and thus armour reduction) affects damage dealt on a % basis?
Difference being that sources of crit apparently stack independantly rather than additively (from what I understood, in LoL it'd mean that a champ with IE/PD would have 25% to crit for 2.5 times the normal damage, and if that doesn't occur a bit less than ~30% to crit for 2 times the normal damage, instead of 55% to crit for 2.5 times the normal damage), and sources of crit aren't as prominent: only 2 items provide it, the second being an upgrade of the first.
Also their crit multiplier is generally equal to or often lower than 2, unless the proc chance is quite low. Can't really compare buying Daedalus to building IE+Shiv on Yasuo.
On March 17 2014 15:11 TheYango wrote:
Incidentally before the Malady/Wits remakes, Kog was actually an interesting use case for this, given that Malady+Wits actually had more powerful early offensive timings than comparable AD items (items like BT, IE, and PD have poor single-item timings and are stronger with 1-2 more additional items while the Malady and Wits timings are both strong on their own) and could be paired with a team defensive item. The S3 Malady/Wits remakes killed this possibility, though.
Technically wouldn't Wit's be an even stronger 1-item timing, since it inherits the MR-shred from Malady? Although Nashor's doesn't make for a good 2nd item buy.
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On March 17 2014 18:39 Alaric wrote:Regarding multiplicative stats, isn't it the same in DotA anyway? As in, damage x AS x modifier from crit = dps, and armour (and thus armour reduction) affects damage dealt on a % basis? Difference being that sources of crit apparently stack independantly rather than additively (from what I understood, in LoL it'd mean that a champ with IE/PD would have 25% to crit for 2.5 times the normal damage, and if that doesn't occur a bit less than ~30% to crit for 2 times the normal damage, instead of 55% to crit for 2.5 times the normal damage), and sources of crit aren't as prominent: only 2 items provide it, the second being an upgrade of the first. Also their crit multiplier is generally equal to or often lower than 2, unless the proc chance is quite low. Can't really compare buying Daedalus to building IE+Shiv on Yasuo. Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 15:11 TheYango wrote:
Incidentally before the Malady/Wits remakes, Kog was actually an interesting use case for this, given that Malady+Wits actually had more powerful early offensive timings than comparable AD items (items like BT, IE, and PD have poor single-item timings and are stronger with 1-2 more additional items while the Malady and Wits timings are both strong on their own) and could be paired with a team defensive item. The S3 Malady/Wits remakes killed this possibility, though. Technically wouldn't Wit's be an even stronger 1-item timing, since it inherits the MR-shred from Malady? Although Nashor's doesn't make for a good 2nd item buy.
With regards to dota. its Damage * attack speed (capped based on heroes base attack speed) * Crit = DPS but only two items give crit and a few passive skills in the game. its not common, nor does it stack the way it does in LoL. if you have a 20% crit item and a 30% crit passive you have a 30% chance to crit and a 14% chance to have the item crit. Not to mention the item that gives crit is only cost efficient as one of the final damage items, and even then there are often better choices for damage. MKB for instance provides true hit, which prevents you from missing, either from the uphill miss chance or evasion.
Dota also has no Armor penetration and only a couple ways to reduce armor in the entire game, most of which are hero specific. combine this with the usually quite weak early levels of the heroes that typically build damage, and the necessity of survival based items due to the early power curves of supports and ganking heroes, and you end up with much less dps relatively than LoL.
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On March 17 2014 19:43 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 18:39 Alaric wrote:Regarding multiplicative stats, isn't it the same in DotA anyway? As in, damage x AS x modifier from crit = dps, and armour (and thus armour reduction) affects damage dealt on a % basis? Difference being that sources of crit apparently stack independantly rather than additively (from what I understood, in LoL it'd mean that a champ with IE/PD would have 25% to crit for 2.5 times the normal damage, and if that doesn't occur a bit less than ~30% to crit for 2 times the normal damage, instead of 55% to crit for 2.5 times the normal damage), and sources of crit aren't as prominent: only 2 items provide it, the second being an upgrade of the first. Also their crit multiplier is generally equal to or often lower than 2, unless the proc chance is quite low. Can't really compare buying Daedalus to building IE+Shiv on Yasuo. On March 17 2014 15:11 TheYango wrote:
Incidentally before the Malady/Wits remakes, Kog was actually an interesting use case for this, given that Malady+Wits actually had more powerful early offensive timings than comparable AD items (items like BT, IE, and PD have poor single-item timings and are stronger with 1-2 more additional items while the Malady and Wits timings are both strong on their own) and could be paired with a team defensive item. The S3 Malady/Wits remakes killed this possibility, though. Technically wouldn't Wit's be an even stronger 1-item timing, since it inherits the MR-shred from Malady? Although Nashor's doesn't make for a good 2nd item buy. With regards to dota. its Damage * attack speed (capped based on heroes base attack speed) * Crit = DPS but only two items give crit and a few passive skills in the game. its not common, nor does it stack the way it does in LoL. if you have a 20% crit item and a 30% crit passive you have a 30% chance to crit and a 14% chance to have the item crit. Not to mention the item that gives crit is only cost efficient as one of the final damage items, and even then there are often better choices for damage. MKB for instance provides true hit, which prevents you from missing, either from the uphill miss chance or evasion. Dota also has no Armor penetration and only a couple ways to reduce armor in the entire game, most of which are hero specific. combine this with the usually quite weak early levels of the heroes that typically build damage, and the necessity of survival based items due to the early power curves of supports and ganking heroes, and you end up with much less dps relatively than LoL.
So basically, LoL has damage*crit%(much higher than dota in full builds)*critdamage*AS*arpen*arshred. Dota has about half the crit%, higher AS scaling from what I've noticed on a number of the carries, and pretty much only arshred.
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On March 17 2014 19:55 Amui wrote:
So basically, LoL has damage*crit%(much higher than dota in full builds)*critdamage*AS*arpen*arshred. Dota has about half the crit%, higher AS scaling from what I've noticed on a number of the carries, and pretty much only arshred.
Yeah. pretty much. the maximum attack speed in the entire game is 5 attacks per second, on 1 hero(alchemist) during his ultimate only, and if you have 400IAS(%) attack speed from stats/items, which is not going to happen with any good amount of damage or tankiness on your hero. Anti mage who is a fast attacking late game carry has about 3.4 attacks per second cap at the 400IAS(%)attack speed which again is not exactly feasible or good. and the typical hero caps at 2.9 attacks per second, again at that 400IAS(%) limit. you usually won't see a hero in dota go above the 2.5 limit in LoL, except alchemist.
EDIT: it was 400's not 500's. went off memory which was accurate but wrong  100% is default.
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EPT
