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On October 27 2013 05:14 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 04:24 Alaric wrote:
I'm trying to be diplomat, but: fucking stop pasting fancy place-holder words like "toxic" who've come to be devoid or any meaning other than "something I want to label as bad because I dislike it" ffs.
Also dumb comparisons like that one with Talon. It's "toxic" because it creates a scenario where one member of the other team just doesn't get to play out the teamfight because they get swapped and die. Even if Urgot's team always loses the subseqent fight, Urgot can essentially just remove one person from the fight every time and just ruin their play experience (since people like participating in their teams' teamfight victory and not instantly dying at the start). Obviously there are a lot of champs that can accomplish this, but Urgot's mechanic is unique in a way that it makes players who don't know how to play around it feel like they're just getting fucked every time and they can't do anything about it. I don't personally have a problem with mechanics like this, but from Riot's perspective I can understand why the term might apply to that skill.
Honestly, I don't get how that's different than an ahri W flash R DFG EQ, which doesn't even give your team a chance to save you, or getting flash cc'd by any other methods. Urgot has to put himself in a position where the other guy needs to rely on his team to do something.
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Dunno, if you take the broad meaning, champions from Veigar to Ahri (when it comes to cc -> death) and from Zed to Kha'Zix and Rengar (for killing you in less than a second potentially from outside vision) are toxic in that sense. And poke is unfun to play against.
And strong laning champions like Pantheon and Darius are unfun because you can't manfight them until you get levels and items.
If we're going to cater to players with such reasoning it stops being catering and more pampering them. Not sure if it's the right call on the long term because of how the entitlement and habits it creates within the player base.
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I think it'd be fine if they made his ult a skillshot somehow so it could be dodged, or made it not quite so point and click somehow, in return for alleviating some of his mana issues.
But yeah, a lot of champions have an ability that allows for you to instantly kill somebody who's out of position, Urgot isn't very special in this sense, excepting that his isn't a skillshot. Most of them are skillshots.
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If it can instagib, it should be removed. Across the board.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 27 2013 05:27 Alaric wrote:
Dunno, if you take the broad meaning, champions from Veigar to Ahri (when it comes to cc -> death) and from Zed to Kha'Zix and Rengar (for killing you in less than a second potentially from outside vision) are toxic in that sense. And poke is unfun to play against.
And strong laning champions like Pantheon and Darius are unfun because you can't manfight them until you get levels and items.
And I'm pretty sure the term "toxic" has been applied to all of those scenarios before, lol.
On October 27 2013 05:32 Craton wrote:
If it can instagib, it should be removed. Across the board.
You've pretty much expressed this view for ages, and I simply don't agree with it.
A champ that can categorically 100-0 people for the entire game is broken. In all other cases, it's a matter of particular timings where it's a misplay to expose yourself to a solo-kill threat at those timings in the first place. Players with less foresight say there's a lack of counterplay when you can be 100-0ed like that, but the counterplay is to not expose yourself in the first place when you know someone is strong enough to do so. 100-0ing you in that case is simply punishing a misplay.
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I still think Urgot mid has potential in the right comp with very minimal changes. Just because he was played as a not lane bully before doesnt make that optimal. He doesn't particularly need a support and he can win a fair number of 1v1 matchups. Early levels against, say, a J4 jungle could be rough but probably not disqualifying.
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What does Urgot bring to the team that another ad mid doesnt do better?
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why don't ppl know you can drink while sliding as gragas? i've literally never seen anyone else do this
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
if a hero is a support and it can trade 1 for 1 then it's pretty broken. but if it requires the resources of a mid or adc then it's probably bad if that's all it can do.
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On October 27 2013 05:33 TheYango wrote:
A champ that can categorically 100-0 people for the entire game is broken. In all other cases, it's a matter of particular timings where it's a misplay to expose yourself to a solo-kill threat at those timings in the first place. Players with less foresight say there's a lack of counterplay when you can be 100-0ed like that, but the counterplay is to not expose yourself in the first place when you know someone is strong enough to do so. 100-0ing you in that case is simply punishing a misplay.
There IS an issue when a character has enough scaling to 100-0 someone at some point in the early- early-mid and enough scaling to continue to do so every time they get another item, being expedited by their ability to 100-0. Obviously its still a misplay, but its rather crappy from a gameplay point of view. Though i suppose that's far more a symptom of poorly designed power curves rather than a problematic kit though.
I may be alone in my opinion though. I think that if a character can 100-0 early they shouldn't be scaling better with items than levels, so they have an impetus to fight rather than just zone people out and maintain a farm advantage. It just makes for more action and less stalemates.
though i'm also of the opinion its far too easy to catch back up in levels right now.
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On October 27 2013 06:12 Osmoses wrote:
What does Urgot bring to the team that another ad mid doesnt do better?
Better scaling from levels alone, more initiation potential, fits a tower sieging comp very well while still bringing tankiness to the team that ia valuable in early teamfights.
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Flash Terrify from Fiddle can lead to catches and instakilling of people by virtue of its cc length, doesn't mean it's all that broken.
I mean, if you pick Urgot and you slap him botlane in place of an AD carry you know you'll lack damage unless you accomodate by picking other damage-oriented stuff on top of it (so you don't go Shen-Maokai-Taric-Urgot-Galio), and you've got to keep that in mind: if you're worse at 4v4 than at 5v5 depending on who you pick you don't necessarily want to trade 1 for 1 using Urgot.
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On October 27 2013 06:01 upperbound wrote:
I still think Urgot mid has potential in the right comp with very minimal changes. Just because he was played as a not lane bully before doesnt make that optimal. He doesn't particularly need a support and he can win a fair number of 1v1 matchups. Early levels against, say, a J4 jungle could be rough but probably not disqualifying.
I can see him being okay mid against champions with real low range. The problem is he really doesn't have much poke potential compared to long range mids, or safe farming potential.
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On October 27 2013 06:18 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 05:33 TheYango wrote:
A champ that can categorically 100-0 people for the entire game is broken. In all other cases, it's a matter of particular timings where it's a misplay to expose yourself to a solo-kill threat at those timings in the first place. Players with less foresight say there's a lack of counterplay when you can be 100-0ed like that, but the counterplay is to not expose yourself in the first place when you know someone is strong enough to do so. 100-0ing you in that case is simply punishing a misplay. There IS an issue when a character has enough scaling to 100-0 someone at some point in the early- early-mid and enough scaling to continue to do so every time they get another item, being expedited by their ability to 100-0. Obviously its still a misplay, but its rather crappy from a gameplay point of view. Though i suppose that's far more a symptom of poorly designed power curves rather than a problematic kit though. I may be alone in my opinion though. I think that if a character can 100-0 early they shouldn't be scaling better with items than levels, so they have an impetus to fight rather than just zone people out and maintain a farm advantage. It just makes for more action and less stalemates. though i'm also of the opinion its far too easy to catch back up in levels right now.
If people are building 0 defense on champions, I'm fine with them being able to get instagibbed, its when you can do so much damage that it doesn't matter what they build it's a problem.
Get a negatron.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
a lot of champs have the potential to do more than 1 hp bar worth of damage in a team fight, others can kill 1 guy with a 100 cd cooldown. it's not so simple
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On October 27 2013 07:12 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 06:18 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 27 2013 05:33 TheYango wrote:
A champ that can categorically 100-0 people for the entire game is broken. In all other cases, it's a matter of particular timings where it's a misplay to expose yourself to a solo-kill threat at those timings in the first place. Players with less foresight say there's a lack of counterplay when you can be 100-0ed like that, but the counterplay is to not expose yourself in the first place when you know someone is strong enough to do so. 100-0ing you in that case is simply punishing a misplay. There IS an issue when a character has enough scaling to 100-0 someone at some point in the early- early-mid and enough scaling to continue to do so every time they get another item, being expedited by their ability to 100-0. Obviously its still a misplay, but its rather crappy from a gameplay point of view. Though i suppose that's far more a symptom of poorly designed power curves rather than a problematic kit though. I may be alone in my opinion though. I think that if a character can 100-0 early they shouldn't be scaling better with items than levels, so they have an impetus to fight rather than just zone people out and maintain a farm advantage. It just makes for more action and less stalemates. though i'm also of the opinion its far too easy to catch back up in levels right now. If people are building 0 defense on champions, I'm fine with them being able to get instagibbed, its when you can do so much damage that it doesn't matter what they build it's a problem. Get a negatron.
Going all offense is just how this game works for a large amount of the cast. And qss alone doesn't stop assassins. That is why the bulwark and locket changes were so shortsighted.
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On October 27 2013 07:12 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 06:18 PrinceXizor wrote:On October 27 2013 05:33 TheYango wrote:
A champ that can categorically 100-0 people for the entire game is broken. In all other cases, it's a matter of particular timings where it's a misplay to expose yourself to a solo-kill threat at those timings in the first place. Players with less foresight say there's a lack of counterplay when you can be 100-0ed like that, but the counterplay is to not expose yourself in the first place when you know someone is strong enough to do so. 100-0ing you in that case is simply punishing a misplay. There IS an issue when a character has enough scaling to 100-0 someone at some point in the early- early-mid and enough scaling to continue to do so every time they get another item, being expedited by their ability to 100-0. Obviously its still a misplay, but its rather crappy from a gameplay point of view. Though i suppose that's far more a symptom of poorly designed power curves rather than a problematic kit though. I may be alone in my opinion though. I think that if a character can 100-0 early they shouldn't be scaling better with items than levels, so they have an impetus to fight rather than just zone people out and maintain a farm advantage. It just makes for more action and less stalemates. though i'm also of the opinion its far too easy to catch back up in levels right now. If people are building 0 defense on champions, I'm fine with them being able to get instagibbed, its when you can do so much damage that it doesn't matter what they build it's a problem. Get a negatron.
I'm saying when they can insta kill a character and the money they earn from that timing is enough to continue doing so the whole game. thats an issue. Something that can be fixed by raising high end item prices and lowering scaling. but thats "boring"
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.... double post sry. T_T
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So...
Why the hell is Riot buffing 2v1 with these new gold Items?
I dont get it.. they say they want the game to be faster paced, and then they put in free wards for all, and give you items that promote doing nothing but staying in lane all game?
I just... I dont get it... Someone tell me the S4 changes aren't as dumb as I feel like they are. Talk me off the ledge TL LoL.
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On October 27 2013 07:56 iCanada wrote:
So...
Why the hell is Riot buffing 2v1 with these new gold Items?
I dont get it.. they say they want the game to be faster paced, and then they put in free wards for all, and give you items that promote doing nothing but staying in lane all game?
I just... I dont get it... Someone tell me the S4 changes aren't as dumb as I feel like they are. Talk me off the ledge TL LoL.
You have so much to keep playing for! Elise Skins! Uhm Halloween map return!
Supports will be stronger and more useful!
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EPT
