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On October 27 2013 01:41 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 01:39 turdburgler wrote:
urgot isnt an ad carry. hes a bruiser with a ranged auto attack. why are you all calling for urgots damage to be increased. Who was saying Urgots damage should be increased? Can you show us the post where that was suggested? Because it didn't happen.
I find your style of argument to be exactly what I hate about this place. You post a whole bunch of 'facts' about how Urgot's damage is so crap and end every post with Buff Urgot. Then when people ask you why his damage should be increased you go, "WTF? Where did I say that? FIND IT!".
So what are you saying, what are your ideas? Do you have anything useful to say or is it just a whole bunch of random QQ to throw at the wall and maybe something will stick?
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I don't think Urgot is that bad, its just its really hard to finish people off with the nerf on his locked on acid hunter range. And when its largely an assassin meta, if you can't kill people and get your damage items let alone the tanky ones, life is just kinda miserable.
I've had pretty good success with him in normals, but in ranked people just skewer me. I never can get rolling because people always get away with a sliver of health and then like 10 minutes later Zed is 100-0ing me or something. -_-
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rush dat ga genja style
dbladex2-->glacial->GA
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if his kit had some kind of defensive mechanism that wasnt his ult (because thats self buff only) then he could play the bruiser role pretty nicely. perhaps changing his self buff shield to be an any ally shield that gives anyones spells or auto attacks a slowing element would allow him to be a bit stronger in team fights. because as it stands now his kit feels mostly 'selfish' when he isnt a carry that makes no sense.
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On October 27 2013 01:41 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 01:39 turdburgler wrote:
urgot isnt an ad carry. hes a bruiser with a ranged auto attack. why are you all calling for urgots damage to be increased. Who was saying Urgots damage should be increased? Can you show us the post where that was suggested? Because it didn't happen.
Stop QQing about a champion, and then responding aggressively when people take your vague suggestions and try to comment on them. Why not instead of saying how bad of shape urgot is in and why he needs to be buffed, make a couple reasonable and possible ways in which Urgot can be buffed, which would not completely break him?
QQing then blindly saying "buff X" is pretty much useless.
In my opinion, Urgot is just bad in the current meta, and come season 4 might be fine even without changes... Hes not in a terrible spot right now, just maybe needs a bit more scaling into late game.
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On October 27 2013 01:48 LaM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 01:41 Ketara wrote:On October 27 2013 01:39 turdburgler wrote:
urgot isnt an ad carry. hes a bruiser with a ranged auto attack. why are you all calling for urgots damage to be increased. Who was saying Urgots damage should be increased? Can you show us the post where that was suggested? Because it didn't happen. I find your style of argument to be exactly what I hate about this place. You post a whole bunch of 'facts' about how Urgot's damage is so crap and end every post with Buff Urgot. Then when people ask you why his damage should be increased you go, "WTF? Where did I say that? FIND IT!". So what are you saying, what are your ideas? Do you have anything useful to say or is it just a whole bunch of random QQ to throw at the wall and maybe something will stick?
If you would actually take the time to read the argument instead of just making a bitchy post you would know. Here, let me help you.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2013 14:09 Ketara wrote:
I think Urgot being unjustifiably bad is going to be my new bandwagon thing.
Here's some level 1 damage numbers I want to compare for you guys.
Ezreal Q: 28 mana, 114 damage, 1100 range.
Lucian Q: 60 mana, 99 damage, 1100 range.
Jinx W: 50 mana, 124 damage, 1500 range, 30% slow. (this is with the current nerfs)
Cait Q: 50 mana, 123 damage, 1300 range.
Varus Q: 70 mana, 140 damage, 1475 range.
Urgot Q: 40 mana, 69 damage, 1000 range.
Why in the flying fuck does Urgot's Q have the lowest range of all that, with the worst damage to mana spent ratio? By the way, it also has the worst AD ratio, the slowest missile speed, and can't go through minions.
What the fuck power creep Riot plz.
Buff Urgot. On October 26 2013 14:16 Ketara wrote:
Oh yeah, when you get a lock on with your 15 second cooldown skill it ups two of his shots from 1000 to 1200 range, hooooooray!
It is more the mana cost that I wanted to illustrate. Even if he has a lock on and is spamming Q's in order to cause as much damage as any of the other ADC's he has to spend on average 50% more mana.
If Riot wants his Q to have a high mana cost to gate it because it's point and click during a lock on, I get that. Then reduce the mana cost of his E since that has counterplay (dodge it), and his ult while you're at it because that's not 100 mana and 100 mana ults is the new thing.
In short, buff Urgot.
Here is me saying, and then clarifying it in a second post, that Urgots mana costs are too high. Nowhere did I say his damage was too low.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2013 21:29 Sicariidae wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 20:16 Sponkz wrote:On October 26 2013 19:29 Slayer91 wrote:
urgot op-->gets nerfed-->will he ever be viable?
come on guys His kit is made in a way, that either his numbers are too great and he´s OP, or they´re shit and he´s UP. Not fun when a succesful E hits you and he Q´s you down to below 50%. There is no productive counter-play to that other than dodging the E. At the moment, there is no way to put more power into Urgot without taking it away from his Grenade. It's a Physical DoT that shreds 20% Armor. Add Black Cleaver on top of that and that's a 40% Armor Reduction for landing one spell. Add Flat Penetration from BC, Runes, Masteries and Urgot just doesn't care about Armor. With Black Cleaver, Last Whisper and standard Urgot Runes/Masteries, a 200 Armor target is effectively reduced to 37.3 Armor. A 300 Armor target only has 73.1 Armor against him. If you have <97 Armor against that, you have effectively less than zero Armor against Urgot. Interestingly, with 4% CDR from Masteries, and 7.5% from Glyphs, Urgot only need ~23% CDR from items to hit the threshold for 4 Qs per E. Black Cleaver and CDR Boots actually works really well there. Add Bloodthirster, Maw of Malmortius/Mercurial Scimitar and Muramana on top of CDR Boots, Black Cleaver and Last Whisper and Urgot can actually be a fairly decent damage threat late-game just because nothing has any Armor against you. With that build, he will have 442 AD. Every single Q lands for 505.7 damage with up to 132.6 bonus Physical Damage from Muramana. The massive 295 base damage on Grenade with it's 0.6x bonus AD ratio can do 492.5 damage on it's own. Pre-resists, which as I've already said mean nothing to Urgot, one E -> QQQQ combo can do 3022.3 damage. I was too lazy to account for mana costs reducing the damage for Muramana active, but you get the idea. Even without Muramana on that one combo can do 2515.3 damage. TL;DR, go abuse Urgot. He's fucking broken and people don't realise it.
Here is somebody else saying you can't buff Urgot because he does SO much damage that he's secret OP and nobody realizes it.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2013 23:10 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 21:29 Sicariidae wrote:On October 26 2013 20:16 Sponkz wrote:On October 26 2013 19:29 Slayer91 wrote:
urgot op-->gets nerfed-->will he ever be viable?
come on guys His kit is made in a way, that either his numbers are too great and he´s OP, or they´re shit and he´s UP. Not fun when a succesful E hits you and he Q´s you down to below 50%. There is no productive counter-play to that other than dodging the E. At the moment, there is no way to put more power into Urgot without taking it away from his Grenade. It's a Physical DoT that shreds 20% Armor. Add Black Cleaver on top of that and that's a 40% Armor Reduction for landing one spell. Add Flat Penetration from BC, Runes, Masteries and Urgot just doesn't care about Armor. With Black Cleaver, Last Whisper and standard Urgot Runes/Masteries, a 200 Armor target is effectively reduced to 37.3 Armor. A 300 Armor target only has 73.1 Armor against him. If you have <97 Armor against that, you have effectively less than zero Armor against Urgot. Interestingly, with 4% CDR from Masteries, and 7.5% from Glyphs, Urgot only need ~23% CDR from items to hit the threshold for 4 Qs per E. Black Cleaver and CDR Boots actually works really well there. Add Bloodthirster, Maw of Malmortius/Mercurial Scimitar and Muramana on top of CDR Boots, Black Cleaver and Last Whisper and Urgot can actually be a fairly decent damage threat late-game just because nothing has any Armor against you. With that build, he will have 442 AD. Every single Q lands for 505.7 damage with up to 132.6 bonus Physical Damage from Muramana. The massive 295 base damage on Grenade with it's 0.6x bonus AD ratio can do 492.5 damage on it's own. Pre-resists, which as I've already said mean nothing to Urgot, one E -> QQQQ combo can do 3022.3 damage. I was too lazy to account for mana costs reducing the damage for Muramana active, but you get the idea. Even without Muramana on that one combo can do 2515.3 damage. TL;DR, go abuse Urgot. He's fucking broken and people don't realise it. This is a perfect example of where numbers don't really mean anything. Other ADC's do that much damage too. I never played with Urgot before he got supernerfed, but with all the sustain going on in lanes now and so many ADC's having dash moves to dodge his E, and with Tear being nerfed and his mana costs so high, he has no lane presence. Saying that there's no counterplay to him other than dodging the E is dumb. There's no counterplay to Blitz or Thresh other than dodging their hooks but that's okay. He's such a glaring example of mobility and mana creep kicking him in the balls and it's sad that with Riot talking about remaking all these old champions (Heimerdinger? Please. Heimer is way more viable than Urgot) that Urgot is getting completely ignored. He's a unique champion with a unique playstyle that is very good at shaking up conventional 5v5 compositions, and the only thing bringing him down is that all his numbers are terrible even though his kit is amazing. He's picked 0.3% of the time with a 42% winrate. What the fuck? Buff Urgot.
Here is me saying that this is incorrect, other ADC's do lots of damage too, and Urgots mana costs are too high and it's sad that with Riot fixing mana costs on lots of old champions that they aren't touching Urgot.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2013 23:34 Ketara wrote:
Caitlyn with an end game ADC build (IE BT LW PD) autoattacking for 5 seconds deals 4867 damage, not counting headshots. And Caitlyn's end game damage is considered to be low.
Tristana does 7047.
Buff Urgot. On October 26 2013 23:49 Ketara wrote:
You want a high damage ADC?
Twitch over 5 seconds deals 5591 phys damage and 528 true damage in an AoE that outranges Urgots acid bomb.
Kogmaw deals 5069 damage plus 46% of their maximum HP.
What the fuck is that shit?
Buff Urgot.
Here's me saying wait a second, even saying Urgot does similar damage to other ADC's is incorrect. Urgot does way less damage than other ADC's. Again, I still never said that Urgots damage should be increased, my argument was always that his mana costs were too high.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 27 2013 01:02 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 23:49 Ketara wrote:
You want a high damage ADC?
Twitch over 5 seconds deals 5591 phys damage and 528 true damage in an AoE that outranges Urgots acid bomb.
Kogmaw deals 5069 damage plus 46% of their maximum HP.
What the fuck is that shit?
Buff Urgot. again, ketara, stop focusing on just one little aspect. Urgot's ult is beyond fucking bonkers when done correctly. On October 27 2013 01:03 Dusty wrote:
Ketara, stop comparing him to ad carries, because he isn't one. On October 27 2013 01:39 turdburgler wrote:
urgot isnt an ad carry. hes a bruiser with a ranged auto attack. why are you all calling for urgots damage to be increased. On October 27 2013 01:48 LaM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 01:41 Ketara wrote:On October 27 2013 01:39 turdburgler wrote:
urgot isnt an ad carry. hes a bruiser with a ranged auto attack. why are you all calling for urgots damage to be increased. Who was saying Urgots damage should be increased? Can you show us the post where that was suggested? Because it didn't happen. I find your style of argument to be exactly what I hate about this place. You post a whole bunch of 'facts' about how Urgot's damage is so crap and end every post with Buff Urgot. Then when people ask you why his damage should be increased you go, "WTF? Where did I say that? FIND IT!". So what are you saying, what are your ideas? Do you have anything useful to say or is it just a whole bunch of random QQ to throw at the wall and maybe something will stick?
And here's 4 different people saying I'm wrong for saying Urgots damage should be increased, which I never said.
You know what bugs me about talking about these things on TL? People who don't read other peoples posts and then respond to them, or don't actually take time with their posts.
If you want to discuss this I'd be happy to discuss it, but not if you're going to interject things into an argument that you never read. Are you guys really trying to say that Urgot is a viable champion right now? I'd be interested to see why this is the case. Or are you just arguing to argue?
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On October 27 2013 02:07 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 27 2013 01:48 LaM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 01:41 Ketara wrote:On October 27 2013 01:39 turdburgler wrote:
urgot isnt an ad carry. hes a bruiser with a ranged auto attack. why are you all calling for urgots damage to be increased. Who was saying Urgots damage should be increased? Can you show us the post where that was suggested? Because it didn't happen. I find your style of argument to be exactly what I hate about this place. You post a whole bunch of 'facts' about how Urgot's damage is so crap and end every post with Buff Urgot. Then when people ask you why his damage should be increased you go, "WTF? Where did I say that? FIND IT!". So what are you saying, what are your ideas? Do you have anything useful to say or is it just a whole bunch of random QQ to throw at the wall and maybe something will stick? If you would actually take the time to read the argument instead of just making a bitchy post you would know. Here, let me help you. + Show Spoiler +On October 26 2013 14:09 Ketara wrote:
I think Urgot being unjustifiably bad is going to be my new bandwagon thing.
Here's some level 1 damage numbers I want to compare for you guys.
Ezreal Q: 28 mana, 114 damage, 1100 range.
Lucian Q: 60 mana, 99 damage, 1100 range.
Jinx W: 50 mana, 124 damage, 1500 range, 30% slow. (this is with the current nerfs)
Cait Q: 50 mana, 123 damage, 1300 range.
Varus Q: 70 mana, 140 damage, 1475 range.
Urgot Q: 40 mana, 69 damage, 1000 range.
Why in the flying fuck does Urgot's Q have the lowest range of all that, with the worst damage to mana spent ratio? By the way, it also has the worst AD ratio, the slowest missile speed, and can't go through minions.
What the fuck power creep Riot plz.
Buff Urgot. On October 26 2013 14:16 Ketara wrote:
Oh yeah, when you get a lock on with your 15 second cooldown skill it ups two of his shots from 1000 to 1200 range, hooooooray!
It is more the mana cost that I wanted to illustrate. Even if he has a lock on and is spamming Q's in order to cause as much damage as any of the other ADC's he has to spend on average 50% more mana.
If Riot wants his Q to have a high mana cost to gate it because it's point and click during a lock on, I get that. Then reduce the mana cost of his E since that has counterplay (dodge it), and his ult while you're at it because that's not 100 mana and 100 mana ults is the new thing.
In short, buff Urgot. Here is me saying, and then clarifying it in a second post, that Urgots mana costs are too high. Nowhere did I say his damage was too low. + Show Spoiler +On October 26 2013 21:29 Sicariidae wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 20:16 Sponkz wrote:On October 26 2013 19:29 Slayer91 wrote:
urgot op-->gets nerfed-->will he ever be viable?
come on guys His kit is made in a way, that either his numbers are too great and he´s OP, or they´re shit and he´s UP. Not fun when a succesful E hits you and he Q´s you down to below 50%. There is no productive counter-play to that other than dodging the E. At the moment, there is no way to put more power into Urgot without taking it away from his Grenade. It's a Physical DoT that shreds 20% Armor. Add Black Cleaver on top of that and that's a 40% Armor Reduction for landing one spell. Add Flat Penetration from BC, Runes, Masteries and Urgot just doesn't care about Armor. With Black Cleaver, Last Whisper and standard Urgot Runes/Masteries, a 200 Armor target is effectively reduced to 37.3 Armor. A 300 Armor target only has 73.1 Armor against him. If you have <97 Armor against that, you have effectively less than zero Armor against Urgot. Interestingly, with 4% CDR from Masteries, and 7.5% from Glyphs, Urgot only need ~23% CDR from items to hit the threshold for 4 Qs per E. Black Cleaver and CDR Boots actually works really well there. Add Bloodthirster, Maw of Malmortius/Mercurial Scimitar and Muramana on top of CDR Boots, Black Cleaver and Last Whisper and Urgot can actually be a fairly decent damage threat late-game just because nothing has any Armor against you. With that build, he will have 442 AD. Every single Q lands for 505.7 damage with up to 132.6 bonus Physical Damage from Muramana. The massive 295 base damage on Grenade with it's 0.6x bonus AD ratio can do 492.5 damage on it's own. Pre-resists, which as I've already said mean nothing to Urgot, one E -> QQQQ combo can do 3022.3 damage. I was too lazy to account for mana costs reducing the damage for Muramana active, but you get the idea. Even without Muramana on that one combo can do 2515.3 damage. TL;DR, go abuse Urgot. He's fucking broken and people don't realise it. Here is somebody else saying you can't buff Urgot because he does SO much damage that he's secret OP and nobody realizes it. + Show Spoiler +On October 26 2013 23:10 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 21:29 Sicariidae wrote:On October 26 2013 20:16 Sponkz wrote:On October 26 2013 19:29 Slayer91 wrote:
urgot op-->gets nerfed-->will he ever be viable?
come on guys His kit is made in a way, that either his numbers are too great and he´s OP, or they´re shit and he´s UP. Not fun when a succesful E hits you and he Q´s you down to below 50%. There is no productive counter-play to that other than dodging the E. At the moment, there is no way to put more power into Urgot without taking it away from his Grenade. It's a Physical DoT that shreds 20% Armor. Add Black Cleaver on top of that and that's a 40% Armor Reduction for landing one spell. Add Flat Penetration from BC, Runes, Masteries and Urgot just doesn't care about Armor. With Black Cleaver, Last Whisper and standard Urgot Runes/Masteries, a 200 Armor target is effectively reduced to 37.3 Armor. A 300 Armor target only has 73.1 Armor against him. If you have <97 Armor against that, you have effectively less than zero Armor against Urgot. Interestingly, with 4% CDR from Masteries, and 7.5% from Glyphs, Urgot only need ~23% CDR from items to hit the threshold for 4 Qs per E. Black Cleaver and CDR Boots actually works really well there. Add Bloodthirster, Maw of Malmortius/Mercurial Scimitar and Muramana on top of CDR Boots, Black Cleaver and Last Whisper and Urgot can actually be a fairly decent damage threat late-game just because nothing has any Armor against you. With that build, he will have 442 AD. Every single Q lands for 505.7 damage with up to 132.6 bonus Physical Damage from Muramana. The massive 295 base damage on Grenade with it's 0.6x bonus AD ratio can do 492.5 damage on it's own. Pre-resists, which as I've already said mean nothing to Urgot, one E -> QQQQ combo can do 3022.3 damage. I was too lazy to account for mana costs reducing the damage for Muramana active, but you get the idea. Even without Muramana on that one combo can do 2515.3 damage. TL;DR, go abuse Urgot. He's fucking broken and people don't realise it. This is a perfect example of where numbers don't really mean anything. Other ADC's do that much damage too. I never played with Urgot before he got supernerfed, but with all the sustain going on in lanes now and so many ADC's having dash moves to dodge his E, and with Tear being nerfed and his mana costs so high, he has no lane presence. Saying that there's no counterplay to him other than dodging the E is dumb. There's no counterplay to Blitz or Thresh other than dodging their hooks but that's okay. He's such a glaring example of mobility and mana creep kicking him in the balls and it's sad that with Riot talking about remaking all these old champions (Heimerdinger? Please. Heimer is way more viable than Urgot) that Urgot is getting completely ignored. He's a unique champion with a unique playstyle that is very good at shaking up conventional 5v5 compositions, and the only thing bringing him down is that all his numbers are terrible even though his kit is amazing. He's picked 0.3% of the time with a 42% winrate. What the fuck? Buff Urgot. Here is me saying that this is incorrect, other ADC's do lots of damage too, and Urgots mana costs are too high and it's sad that with Riot fixing mana costs on lots of old champions that they aren't touching Urgot. + Show Spoiler +On October 26 2013 23:34 Ketara wrote:
Caitlyn with an end game ADC build (IE BT LW PD) autoattacking for 5 seconds deals 4867 damage, not counting headshots. And Caitlyn's end game damage is considered to be low.
Tristana does 7047.
Buff Urgot. On October 26 2013 23:49 Ketara wrote:
You want a high damage ADC?
Twitch over 5 seconds deals 5591 phys damage and 528 true damage in an AoE that outranges Urgots acid bomb.
Kogmaw deals 5069 damage plus 46% of their maximum HP.
What the fuck is that shit?
Buff Urgot. Here's me saying wait a second, even saying Urgot does similar damage to other ADC's is incorrect. Urgot does way less damage than other ADC's. Again, I still never said that Urgots damage should be increased, my argument was always that his mana costs were too high. + Show Spoiler +On October 27 2013 01:02 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 23:49 Ketara wrote:
You want a high damage ADC?
Twitch over 5 seconds deals 5591 phys damage and 528 true damage in an AoE that outranges Urgots acid bomb.
Kogmaw deals 5069 damage plus 46% of their maximum HP.
What the fuck is that shit?
Buff Urgot. again, ketara, stop focusing on just one little aspect. Urgot's ult is beyond fucking bonkers when done correctly. On October 27 2013 01:03 Dusty wrote:
Ketara, stop comparing him to ad carries, because he isn't one. On October 27 2013 01:39 turdburgler wrote:
urgot isnt an ad carry. hes a bruiser with a ranged auto attack. why are you all calling for urgots damage to be increased. On October 27 2013 01:48 LaM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 01:41 Ketara wrote:On October 27 2013 01:39 turdburgler wrote:
urgot isnt an ad carry. hes a bruiser with a ranged auto attack. why are you all calling for urgots damage to be increased. Who was saying Urgots damage should be increased? Can you show us the post where that was suggested? Because it didn't happen. I find your style of argument to be exactly what I hate about this place. You post a whole bunch of 'facts' about how Urgot's damage is so crap and end every post with Buff Urgot. Then when people ask you why his damage should be increased you go, "WTF? Where did I say that? FIND IT!". So what are you saying, what are your ideas? Do you have anything useful to say or is it just a whole bunch of random QQ to throw at the wall and maybe something will stick? And here's 4 different people saying I'm wrong for saying Urgots damage should be increased, which I never said. You know what bugs me about talking about these things on TL? People who don't read other peoples posts and then respond to them, or don't actually take time with their posts. If you want to discuss this I'd be happy to discuss it, but not if you're going to interject things into an argument that you never read. Are you guys really trying to say that Urgot is a viable champion right now? I'd be interested to see why this is the case. Or are you just arguing to argue?
Alaric, get off Ketara's computer.
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>does nothing but compare urgot to ad carries
>insists he doesnt compare them to ad carries
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So 12 hours ago you posted something about his AD and mana costs COMPARED TO AD CARRIES and since then have only spammed posts about his damage being low COMPARED TO AD CARRIES with Buff Urgot at the end and yet everyone is supposed to know exactly what you are talking about.
Here's a hint. When 4+ people misunderstand you and nobody understands you, it's not because everyone else is bad at communicating.
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On October 26 2013 23:34 Ketara wrote:
Caitlyn with an end game ADC build (IE BT LW PD) autoattacking for 5 seconds deals 4867 damage, not counting headshots. And Caitlyn's end game damage is considered to be low.
Tristana does 7047.
Buff Urgot.
But, the difference for Urgot is that other AD carries don't get ridiculous amounts of Armor Penetration. Caitlyn and Tristana will never get Black Cleaver, so they are limited to 40.2% (Last Whisper + 8% from Masteries) Armor Penetration plus whatever flat Penetration they can get from Masteries/Runes.
Versus at 250 Armor target:
Urgot: 1947.4
Caitlyn 2023.7
Tristana 2930.1
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also, crying about "viability"
please, everything is viable in soloq
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On October 27 2013 02:26 Dusty wrote:
also, crying about "viability"
please, everything is viable in soloq
No.. I'm a future LCS player in Gold/Plat and thru testing have discovered that only the top tier pro picks are worth playing in solo q.
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It's good to know that your entire intention is just to be an asshole and shittalk people rather than actually discuss League of Legends.
And you're the one saying you don't like how people post on this forum.
User was warned for this post
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On October 27 2013 02:11 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 02:07 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 27 2013 01:48 LaM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 01:41 Ketara wrote:On October 27 2013 01:39 turdburgler wrote:
urgot isnt an ad carry. hes a bruiser with a ranged auto attack. why are you all calling for urgots damage to be increased. Who was saying Urgots damage should be increased? Can you show us the post where that was suggested? Because it didn't happen. I find your style of argument to be exactly what I hate about this place. You post a whole bunch of 'facts' about how Urgot's damage is so crap and end every post with Buff Urgot. Then when people ask you why his damage should be increased you go, "WTF? Where did I say that? FIND IT!". So what are you saying, what are your ideas? Do you have anything useful to say or is it just a whole bunch of random QQ to throw at the wall and maybe something will stick? If you would actually take the time to read the argument instead of just making a bitchy post you would know. Here, let me help you. + Show Spoiler +On October 26 2013 14:09 Ketara wrote:
I think Urgot being unjustifiably bad is going to be my new bandwagon thing.
Here's some level 1 damage numbers I want to compare for you guys.
Ezreal Q: 28 mana, 114 damage, 1100 range.
Lucian Q: 60 mana, 99 damage, 1100 range.
Jinx W: 50 mana, 124 damage, 1500 range, 30% slow. (this is with the current nerfs)
Cait Q: 50 mana, 123 damage, 1300 range.
Varus Q: 70 mana, 140 damage, 1475 range.
Urgot Q: 40 mana, 69 damage, 1000 range.
Why in the flying fuck does Urgot's Q have the lowest range of all that, with the worst damage to mana spent ratio? By the way, it also has the worst AD ratio, the slowest missile speed, and can't go through minions.
What the fuck power creep Riot plz.
Buff Urgot. On October 26 2013 14:16 Ketara wrote:
Oh yeah, when you get a lock on with your 15 second cooldown skill it ups two of his shots from 1000 to 1200 range, hooooooray!
It is more the mana cost that I wanted to illustrate. Even if he has a lock on and is spamming Q's in order to cause as much damage as any of the other ADC's he has to spend on average 50% more mana.
If Riot wants his Q to have a high mana cost to gate it because it's point and click during a lock on, I get that. Then reduce the mana cost of his E since that has counterplay (dodge it), and his ult while you're at it because that's not 100 mana and 100 mana ults is the new thing.
In short, buff Urgot. Here is me saying, and then clarifying it in a second post, that Urgots mana costs are too high. Nowhere did I say his damage was too low. + Show Spoiler +On October 26 2013 21:29 Sicariidae wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 20:16 Sponkz wrote:On October 26 2013 19:29 Slayer91 wrote:
urgot op-->gets nerfed-->will he ever be viable?
come on guys His kit is made in a way, that either his numbers are too great and he´s OP, or they´re shit and he´s UP. Not fun when a succesful E hits you and he Q´s you down to below 50%. There is no productive counter-play to that other than dodging the E. At the moment, there is no way to put more power into Urgot without taking it away from his Grenade. It's a Physical DoT that shreds 20% Armor. Add Black Cleaver on top of that and that's a 40% Armor Reduction for landing one spell. Add Flat Penetration from BC, Runes, Masteries and Urgot just doesn't care about Armor. With Black Cleaver, Last Whisper and standard Urgot Runes/Masteries, a 200 Armor target is effectively reduced to 37.3 Armor. A 300 Armor target only has 73.1 Armor against him. If you have <97 Armor against that, you have effectively less than zero Armor against Urgot. Interestingly, with 4% CDR from Masteries, and 7.5% from Glyphs, Urgot only need ~23% CDR from items to hit the threshold for 4 Qs per E. Black Cleaver and CDR Boots actually works really well there. Add Bloodthirster, Maw of Malmortius/Mercurial Scimitar and Muramana on top of CDR Boots, Black Cleaver and Last Whisper and Urgot can actually be a fairly decent damage threat late-game just because nothing has any Armor against you. With that build, he will have 442 AD. Every single Q lands for 505.7 damage with up to 132.6 bonus Physical Damage from Muramana. The massive 295 base damage on Grenade with it's 0.6x bonus AD ratio can do 492.5 damage on it's own. Pre-resists, which as I've already said mean nothing to Urgot, one E -> QQQQ combo can do 3022.3 damage. I was too lazy to account for mana costs reducing the damage for Muramana active, but you get the idea. Even without Muramana on that one combo can do 2515.3 damage. TL;DR, go abuse Urgot. He's fucking broken and people don't realise it. Here is somebody else saying you can't buff Urgot because he does SO much damage that he's secret OP and nobody realizes it. + Show Spoiler +On October 26 2013 23:10 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 21:29 Sicariidae wrote:On October 26 2013 20:16 Sponkz wrote:On October 26 2013 19:29 Slayer91 wrote:
urgot op-->gets nerfed-->will he ever be viable?
come on guys His kit is made in a way, that either his numbers are too great and he´s OP, or they´re shit and he´s UP. Not fun when a succesful E hits you and he Q´s you down to below 50%. There is no productive counter-play to that other than dodging the E. At the moment, there is no way to put more power into Urgot without taking it away from his Grenade. It's a Physical DoT that shreds 20% Armor. Add Black Cleaver on top of that and that's a 40% Armor Reduction for landing one spell. Add Flat Penetration from BC, Runes, Masteries and Urgot just doesn't care about Armor. With Black Cleaver, Last Whisper and standard Urgot Runes/Masteries, a 200 Armor target is effectively reduced to 37.3 Armor. A 300 Armor target only has 73.1 Armor against him. If you have <97 Armor against that, you have effectively less than zero Armor against Urgot. Interestingly, with 4% CDR from Masteries, and 7.5% from Glyphs, Urgot only need ~23% CDR from items to hit the threshold for 4 Qs per E. Black Cleaver and CDR Boots actually works really well there. Add Bloodthirster, Maw of Malmortius/Mercurial Scimitar and Muramana on top of CDR Boots, Black Cleaver and Last Whisper and Urgot can actually be a fairly decent damage threat late-game just because nothing has any Armor against you. With that build, he will have 442 AD. Every single Q lands for 505.7 damage with up to 132.6 bonus Physical Damage from Muramana. The massive 295 base damage on Grenade with it's 0.6x bonus AD ratio can do 492.5 damage on it's own. Pre-resists, which as I've already said mean nothing to Urgot, one E -> QQQQ combo can do 3022.3 damage. I was too lazy to account for mana costs reducing the damage for Muramana active, but you get the idea. Even without Muramana on that one combo can do 2515.3 damage. TL;DR, go abuse Urgot. He's fucking broken and people don't realise it. This is a perfect example of where numbers don't really mean anything. Other ADC's do that much damage too. I never played with Urgot before he got supernerfed, but with all the sustain going on in lanes now and so many ADC's having dash moves to dodge his E, and with Tear being nerfed and his mana costs so high, he has no lane presence. Saying that there's no counterplay to him other than dodging the E is dumb. There's no counterplay to Blitz or Thresh other than dodging their hooks but that's okay. He's such a glaring example of mobility and mana creep kicking him in the balls and it's sad that with Riot talking about remaking all these old champions (Heimerdinger? Please. Heimer is way more viable than Urgot) that Urgot is getting completely ignored. He's a unique champion with a unique playstyle that is very good at shaking up conventional 5v5 compositions, and the only thing bringing him down is that all his numbers are terrible even though his kit is amazing. He's picked 0.3% of the time with a 42% winrate. What the fuck? Buff Urgot. Here is me saying that this is incorrect, other ADC's do lots of damage too, and Urgots mana costs are too high and it's sad that with Riot fixing mana costs on lots of old champions that they aren't touching Urgot. + Show Spoiler +On October 26 2013 23:34 Ketara wrote:
Caitlyn with an end game ADC build (IE BT LW PD) autoattacking for 5 seconds deals 4867 damage, not counting headshots. And Caitlyn's end game damage is considered to be low.
Tristana does 7047.
Buff Urgot. On October 26 2013 23:49 Ketara wrote:
You want a high damage ADC?
Twitch over 5 seconds deals 5591 phys damage and 528 true damage in an AoE that outranges Urgots acid bomb.
Kogmaw deals 5069 damage plus 46% of their maximum HP.
What the fuck is that shit?
Buff Urgot. Here's me saying wait a second, even saying Urgot does similar damage to other ADC's is incorrect. Urgot does way less damage than other ADC's. Again, I still never said that Urgots damage should be increased, my argument was always that his mana costs were too high. + Show Spoiler +On October 27 2013 01:02 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2013 23:49 Ketara wrote:
You want a high damage ADC?
Twitch over 5 seconds deals 5591 phys damage and 528 true damage in an AoE that outranges Urgots acid bomb.
Kogmaw deals 5069 damage plus 46% of their maximum HP.
What the fuck is that shit?
Buff Urgot. again, ketara, stop focusing on just one little aspect. Urgot's ult is beyond fucking bonkers when done correctly. On October 27 2013 01:03 Dusty wrote:
Ketara, stop comparing him to ad carries, because he isn't one. On October 27 2013 01:39 turdburgler wrote:
urgot isnt an ad carry. hes a bruiser with a ranged auto attack. why are you all calling for urgots damage to be increased. On October 27 2013 01:48 LaM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2013 01:41 Ketara wrote:On October 27 2013 01:39 turdburgler wrote:
urgot isnt an ad carry. hes a bruiser with a ranged auto attack. why are you all calling for urgots damage to be increased. Who was saying Urgots damage should be increased? Can you show us the post where that was suggested? Because it didn't happen. I find your style of argument to be exactly what I hate about this place. You post a whole bunch of 'facts' about how Urgot's damage is so crap and end every post with Buff Urgot. Then when people ask you why his damage should be increased you go, "WTF? Where did I say that? FIND IT!". So what are you saying, what are your ideas? Do you have anything useful to say or is it just a whole bunch of random QQ to throw at the wall and maybe something will stick? And here's 4 different people saying I'm wrong for saying Urgots damage should be increased, which I never said. You know what bugs me about talking about these things on TL? People who don't read other peoples posts and then respond to them, or don't actually take time with their posts. If you want to discuss this I'd be happy to discuss it, but not if you're going to interject things into an argument that you never read. Are you guys really trying to say that Urgot is a viable champion right now? I'd be interested to see why this is the case. Or are you just arguing to argue? Alaric, get off Ketara's computer.
Na, it's too well-presented to be me. There's not only the length, y'know.
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On October 27 2013 02:35 Ketara wrote:
It's good to know that your entire intention is just to be an asshole and shittalk people rather than actually discuss League of Legends.
And you're the one saying you don't like how people post on this forum.
Oh fucking please, you're being nothing short of a cunt to everyone right now
User was warned for this post
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TLDR, buff urgot's range/mana costs. His damage is in a good spot right now. Also I'm a fan of his kit, it's just that he's unviable right now due to overnerfing, not because his kit doesn't work. If riot decides to rework him I'll be incredibly angry though.
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On October 27 2013 02:44 Amui wrote:
TLDR, buff urgot's range/mana costs. His damage is in a good spot right now. Also I'm a fan of his kit, it's just that he's unviable right now due to overnerfing, not because his kit doesn't work. If riot decides to rework him I'll be incredibly angry though.
I agree!
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Wow plz guys. There is already a dota forum if you guys want to shit all over each other.
As far as Urgot, without having played him a lot, I think his most serious design issue is just that there's nothing except pointing that happens when he locks on. If you get hit by a grenade there's not really anything you can do except leave the q radius. If you can't, shrug, you're gonna take the damage, there's no incentive to behave differently since it's almost impossible to miss locked shots. I think Q shouldn't be so tightly coupled to his E - like maybe you could get mini locks by autoing or something - and should be more realistically avoidable.
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Honestly I would rather see Urgot become a niche pain in the ass midlaner than a bot laner. I think he needs a little bit of help with gank evasion (maybe a slight ms buff or shield buff) and an early level mana cost buff in order to be competitive. For a champion that is balanced around interweaving Qs and Autos, his early mana pool doesnt sustain that. Blue buff at later levels would help to address later game, and Urgot already builds Glacial and could probably make good use of new triforce. I could see him played in a tower sieging comp similarly to a Midalee but trading raw poke damage for tankiness and a teamfight initiation tool / teamfight presence.
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On October 27 2013 02:35 Ketara wrote:
It's good to know that your entire intention is just to be an asshole and shittalk people rather than actually discuss League of Legends.
And you're the one saying you don't like how people post on this forum.
Victim card so good, if only your arguments weren't so obtuse, people might actually sympathize for you
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EPT
