On October 24 2013 04:55 obesechicken13 wrote: Game is pretty snowbally though. I've had games where I've lost due to someone (often me) giving doublebuffs early on T_T
Every game is "snowbally" if you make an egregious enough error.
It's just a matter of peoples' perception of how big an error should be reversible.
Btw this reminds me of an argument I had with a Dota guy earlier this year. He claimed Dota is more snowbally than league and that makes the game better because it is "less forgiving". Lol.
What is snowball?
Most people have identified it as "the conditional probability that you will win given that you are winning is higher than the unconditional probability of winning"
That's like ... ???
Right, I'd agree with that definition. And naturally it will exist in any game where you can build an advantage, unless it is counteracted by "elastic" mechanics (e.g. Blue Shells). But there can still be excessive snowballing, for e.g. if first blood gave 2k gold that would completely decide a lane, wouldn't be very fun.
On October 24 2013 06:16 AsmodeusXI wrote: They should just have items that are worth buying that aren't wards.
why? everyone seems to take this for granted but there's no inherent reason why this is preferable to the alternative
Because there shouldn't be that many wards. Then supports SHOULD have something to do with the extra money. Ideally something to do with their role.
I mean, I guess they could just jack up the price of wards (I'll admit I was thinking of them as 75 still) and still restrict how many you have. It would serve the same purpose of consuming support gold.
Edit: It's not just "having fun." I think it works contrary to the game's mechanics if you have gold that you're not spending, which I think could happen in a world where you could only buy a few wards every X minutes. But hey, if you solve that by making wards $$$$$$ there ya go.
Apparently the point behind giving supports more gold is so that they can add stat <-> utility scaling.
Ex. Janna shield AD bonus scales off of AP.
Possibly stuff like soraka W armor off AP, etc.
Not sold on this approach, because that basically means that you will never see a champion designed as a support EVER do something other than support. If the janna shield AD bonus also increased with AP, you'd see a corresponding nerf to her AP scaling elsewhere, and that hurts a laner far more than it hurts a support.
i agree, but i still think thats a better situation than current. ive said before that i believe the game would be better if the whole idea of a 'support' champ was removed, and supporting became something more optional and/or abstract like 'initiator' or whatever. but if they are going to keep support champs in the game i think its at least interesting to see how a new form of scaling works out.
offtopic, in starcraft the leagues (used to) roughly correspond to 20% skill segments of the player base, and i always assumed league was the same. bronze bottom 20%, silver 20-40% etc. but someone in an offhand comment on reddit early said that being in gold put you in the top 10% of people? does anyone have the official breakdown to hand?
And as I've said before, the existence of the support role has nothing to do with how champions are designed and everything with how gold is distributed throughout the map. You can't have five champions that depend on items on a team because there aren't five sources of gold on the map.
Supports being able to buy non-ward items is only part of it. The other part of the s4 changes is that vision was too easy to get in s3, making playing from behind really hard because the enemy team can ward up the entire map and you have no way to stop them. Imagine if you got automatic map hack in SC2 if you were ever 1+ base ahead for more than 5 minutes.
Supports being able to buy items because wards are limited is a nice side effect but not the main reason for the decision.
On October 24 2013 06:16 AsmodeusXI wrote: They should just have items that are worth buying that aren't wards.
why? everyone seems to take this for granted but there's no inherent reason why this is preferable to the alternative
Because there shouldn't be that many wards. Then supports SHOULD have something to do with the extra money. Ideally something to do with their role.
I mean, I guess they could just jack up the price of wards (I'll admit I was thinking of them as 75 still) and still restrict how many you have. It would serve the same purpose of consuming support gold.
Edit: It's not just "having fun." I think it works contrary to the game's mechanics if you have gold that you're not spending, which I think could happen in a world where you could only buy a few wards every X minutes. But hey, if you solve that by making wards $$$$$$ there ya go.
thats fine, its just usually people jump straight from there needs to be less wards into supports should have extra gold to buy items when there's no real connection between the two
On October 24 2013 05:38 Slusher wrote: I am actually extremely skeptical of this much undeniable gold being added to the game but I'm trying my hardest to maintain a wait and see attitude.
I'm not sure why supports and junglers need as much gold as solo laners and ADs lol. Maybe they should just make 5 solo lanes.
So supports and junglers aren't all buying the same items every game, giving them real itemization options and the ability to make strategical decisions with their gold?
Just because it's been the norm to have your jungler/support having almost no gold and being largely supportive in nature doesn't mean it always has to be that way. By allowing the jungle position more gold, you INCREASE jungler diversity and INCREASE jungle strategical options because they don't ALWAYS have to be champions that don't need a lot of farm.
We actually have this argument literally once a week. I'm going to sum up what everyone winds up agreeing upon
1) If you want to carry from jungle why not just play a solo lane where there's more farm which then leads to the question "Why don't we put more gold in the jungle then?" 2) If there's more gold in the jungle then solo lanes will take camps because it's better served to the multiplicative scaling etc etc 3) The problem of junglers buying the same items is because there are no other attractive team oriented items other than Aegis . That isn't a problem with gold flow, it's a problem with itemization 4) Supports buy wards cause it's the best thing they can buy
On October 24 2013 05:31 Osmoses wrote: Imagine a snowball at the top of a hill. It gets first blood, causing it to roll down the hill, getting more and more kills and thus growing bigger.
Then it gets caught forty or fifty times in the jungle and you lose anyway.
On October 24 2013 06:16 AsmodeusXI wrote: They should just have items that are worth buying that aren't wards.
why? everyone seems to take this for granted but there's no inherent reason why this is preferable to the alternative
Because there shouldn't be that many wards. Then supports SHOULD have something to do with the extra money. Ideally something to do with their role.
I mean, I guess they could just jack up the price of wards (I'll admit I was thinking of them as 75 still) and still restrict how many you have. It would serve the same purpose of consuming support gold.
Edit: It's not just "having fun." I think it works contrary to the game's mechanics if you have gold that you're not spending, which I think could happen in a world where you could only buy a few wards every X minutes. But hey, if you solve that by making wards $$$$$$ there ya go.
thats fine, its just usually people jump straight from there needs to be less wards into supports should have extra gold to buy items when there's no real connection between the two
And in this scenario people = Riot.
NO STAHP I'M WITHHOLDING JUDGEMENT LIKE A GOOD PERSON
sounds like a pub driven change tbh, espeically with their team builder matchmaking thing coming.
at competitive level play a farming jungler is not just bad strategy, it's also not interesting or exciting. takes a lot out of the game by purposefully trying to give everyone scaling so they too can be the special carry.
On October 24 2013 06:29 JimmiC wrote: The problem is people are making assumptions before the changes have been announced with any level of specificity let alone put into practice. And due to people negative attitudes people are generally focusing on what COULD be wrong and go bad instead of what COULD go right and be better.
Everything they've said suggests they are thinking along certain lines. See the "shard of true ice" for an example of Riot totally missing the point while looking at support items etc. There's also the understanding that Riot will be sure to cater to the 'filthy casuals' to some degree or another (They have to pay the bills, it makes sense to do so, but it's rarely making the game better). TL:DR
On October 24 2013 06:38 Requizen wrote: I like how people are saying "it sucks for Junglers and supports to buy the same items every game".
Hi ADCs, I don't see anyone complaining about you~
Adc itemization is pretty varied now, except for lw. 4 different 1st item rush, bt, botrk, ie, tf. 3 different 2nd item choices, pd, shiv, lw. Etc. Etc. Adc in good spot in terms of itemization.
EPT
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