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On October 24 2013 07:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:doesnt mean its not win lane win game skill disparity Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 07:05 Slusher wrote:
do you know how much gold you can get on live by spamming camps? it's a lot more than you might think. again, doesnt matter lol your team is gonna go 0-20 4v5 while the jungler cries about how "omfg team all feed i farm so much but cant carry"
skill disparity
what you talking about
its not SOLO Q so everyone isn't solo q retards and therefore its perfectly good evidence
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On October 24 2013 07:05 Slusher wrote:
do you know how much gold you can get on live by spamming camps? it's a lot more than you might think.
Probably entirely reasonable to believe that with an extra camp if you were perfectly farming every single camp with no delays you'd be making as much gold as a solo laner. V. interested to see what the changes are in more detail.
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I did a thought experiment:
I put a jungle camp (say wraiths) inside each team's base and have it respawn immediately after dying. One player could essentially enter a "Hyperbolic-Time-Chamber" for the entire game and free farm constantly at the cost of losing map presence. How would games play out? Think of it like putting infinite gold in the jungle with the ability to farm it under a siege.
0) Neither team uses it and its a normal 5v5.
1) Both teams could farm up and play 3 solo lanes.
2) One team pushes 5v4 to take an early tower and/or dragon.
3) The free farming champion could use TP to delay outer towers from falling.
4) Teams who fall behind mid/late game can free farm in base while still defending inhibitor towers. Prevents a losing team from being starved out.
5) Teams who over commit to in-base farming lose baron control.
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On October 24 2013 07:07 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 07:05 Slusher wrote:
do you know how much gold you can get on live by spamming camps? it's a lot more than you might think. Probably entirely reasonable to believe that with an extra camp if you were perfectly farming every single camp with no delays you'd be making as much gold as a solo laner. V. interested to see what the changes are in more detail.
spoilers: you can already get very close on live, it's just not worth it.
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On October 24 2013 07:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
its still not a choice your lanesare gonna lose 5v4 vs competent people, period, and a jungler with a bit more gold isnt gonna help with any of that
Losing is a matter of degree. If a camp gives you 90G in 5s then a gank shouldn't grant, on average, more than 90G per 5s.
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On October 24 2013 06:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
what would an extra jungle camp do besides have another camp that is left untaken as junglers sit in a lane brush for 30 seconds waiting to gank lol
An extra jungle camp by itself doesn't fix everything, but it's still (presuming Riot is implementing it correctly and for the right reasons) a crucial step in the right direction.
Honestly, there's way too much blind optimism and pessimism right now considering we have zero information regarding how anything is actually being implemented. For all we know the fourth jungle creep is in the fountain and champions tagged support get double the value of all gp10.
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On October 24 2013 07:07 Ghost-z wrote:
I did a thought experiment:
I put a jungle camp (say wraiths) inside each team's base and have it respawn immediately after dying. One player could essentially enter a "Hyperbolic-Time-Chamber" for the entire game and free farm constantly at the cost of losing map presence. How would games play out? Think of it like putting infinite gold in the jungle with the ability to farm it under a siege.
0) Neither team uses it and its a normal 5v5.
1) Both teams could farm up and play 3 solo lanes.
2) One team pushes 5v4 to take an early tower and/or dragon.
3) The free farming champion could use TP to delay outer towers from falling.
4) Teams who fall behind mid/late game can free farm in base while still defending inhibitor towers. Prevents a losing team from being starved out.
5) Teams who over commit to in-base farming lose baron control.
Mundo and Singed would walk out of base at 10 minutes and solo the nexus turrets.
I don't think Riot's team has figured out what they want in S4 yet. This is complicated stuff. A change in one area has reverberating repercussions elsewhere. I'm gonna focus on other stuff.
Also, for the record, I guess it is possible to get items other than Jungler items. I did Tiamat jungle Rengar for quite a while.
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On October 24 2013 07:08 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 07:07 Ketara wrote:On October 24 2013 07:05 Slusher wrote:
do you know how much gold you can get on live by spamming camps? it's a lot more than you might think. Probably entirely reasonable to believe that with an extra camp if you were perfectly farming every single camp with no delays you'd be making as much gold as a solo laner. V. interested to see what the changes are in more detail. spoilers: you can already get very close on live, it's just not worth it.
Realistically for it to be worth it it probably needs to be above solo lane gold.
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On October 24 2013 07:12 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 07:07 Ghost-z wrote:
I did a thought experiment:
I put a jungle camp (say wraiths) inside each team's base and have it respawn immediately after dying. One player could essentially enter a "Hyperbolic-Time-Chamber" for the entire game and free farm constantly at the cost of losing map presence. How would games play out? Think of it like putting infinite gold in the jungle with the ability to farm it under a siege.
0) Neither team uses it and its a normal 5v5.
1) Both teams could farm up and play 3 solo lanes.
2) One team pushes 5v4 to take an early tower and/or dragon.
3) The free farming champion could use TP to delay outer towers from falling.
4) Teams who fall behind mid/late game can free farm in base while still defending inhibitor towers. Prevents a losing team from being starved out.
5) Teams who over commit to in-base farming lose baron control. Mundo and Singed would walk out of base at 10 minutes and solo the nexus turrets. I don't think Riot's team has figured out what they want in S4 yet. This is complicated stuff. A change in one area has reverberating repercussions elsewhere. I'm gonna focus on other stuff. Also, for the record, I guess it is possible to get items other than Jungler items. I did Tiamat jungle Rengar for quite a while.
And at 20 minutes, Nasus would leave with his Q stacked to like 1200 and just one-shot champions.
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On October 24 2013 07:14 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 07:08 Slusher wrote:On October 24 2013 07:07 Ketara wrote:On October 24 2013 07:05 Slusher wrote:
do you know how much gold you can get on live by spamming camps? it's a lot more than you might think. Probably entirely reasonable to believe that with an extra camp if you were perfectly farming every single camp with no delays you'd be making as much gold as a solo laner. V. interested to see what the changes are in more detail. spoilers: you can already get very close on live, it's just not worth it. Realistically for it to be worth it it probably needs to be above solo lane gold.
true, but then you reach the debate of, do you really want the best source of gold to be largely a PvE affair?
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On October 24 2013 07:02 Slayer91 wrote:
Took me 2 games and 40 kills to get garen banned in EU inhouses
wheres the garen haters we have vods
Though a lot of that might have to do with playing a pretty snowbally champion in a dia 1 vs gold who doesn't even main it top.
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On October 24 2013 07:18 JimmiC wrote:
I think it's not susposed to remove ganks and create a we all lane solo then join up for teamfights. But rather a situation where if the gank fails you were better off farming. so putting some risk to ganking. As some one pointed out currently. Simply being there and causing the one laner to miss farm is more valuable then getting your own farm.
maybe if champs like VI couldnt punch you for 10% of your health as bonus damage then them losing out on items would actually matter.
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On October 24 2013 07:17 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 07:14 Ketara wrote:On October 24 2013 07:08 Slusher wrote:On October 24 2013 07:07 Ketara wrote:On October 24 2013 07:05 Slusher wrote:
do you know how much gold you can get on live by spamming camps? it's a lot more than you might think. Probably entirely reasonable to believe that with an extra camp if you were perfectly farming every single camp with no delays you'd be making as much gold as a solo laner. V. interested to see what the changes are in more detail. spoilers: you can already get very close on live, it's just not worth it. Realistically for it to be worth it it probably needs to be above solo lane gold. true, but then you reach the debate of, do you really want the best source of gold to be largely a PvE affair?
I don't think saying it's a PvE affair is a totally fair statement.
Realistically though, I think most people would prefer more available playstyles and more viable champions, even if some of those playstyles/champions were less action packed than others.
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All I think will happen is that champions that are now good will become poop, and the currently bad champions will become good. Mundo will be god again in the jungle while j4 becomes useless... just because, you know, Riot cyclical balance strategies.
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I just came up with a hilarious (ly bad) idea for reworking flash. Instead of going on CD when you use it, it just gains a cast time that diminishes over time until it returns to an instant cast time. So like, cast instant flash, now you can use it again immediately but it'll have like a 5 second cast time *and* then have a 10 second cast time after that. Hilariously bad idea. (Could be a viable mechanic for other spells, though :p)
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if the game is constantly changing everyone has an incentive to keep playing and keep buying. the worst thing riot could do for their business model is make a perfectly balanced game ;D
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On October 24 2013 07:33 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 07:17 Slusher wrote:On October 24 2013 07:14 Ketara wrote:On October 24 2013 07:08 Slusher wrote:On October 24 2013 07:07 Ketara wrote:On October 24 2013 07:05 Slusher wrote:
do you know how much gold you can get on live by spamming camps? it's a lot more than you might think. Probably entirely reasonable to believe that with an extra camp if you were perfectly farming every single camp with no delays you'd be making as much gold as a solo laner. V. interested to see what the changes are in more detail. spoilers: you can already get very close on live, it's just not worth it. Realistically for it to be worth it it probably needs to be above solo lane gold. true, but then you reach the debate of, do you really want the best source of gold to be largely a PvE affair? I don't think saying it's a PvE affair is a totally fair statement. Realistically though, I think most people would prefer more available playstyles and more viable champions, even if some of those playstyles/champions were less action packed than others.
On the flipside, do you want essentially random encounters generated by the jungler to be determinative of winning/losing lanes?
It is not simply that farming the jungle is too bad, it is also that ganking is too good, which is a symptom (or maybe the cause IDK) of the snowballiness. Because if you give FB as Shen to Renekton, the lane is a struggle the rest of the game, not only are you behind, but their jungler can ward for good ole' Renekton and let him play aggro very safely. Then the jungler sees your jungler top (in a ward) and takes dragon 4v3. All because wards timed out.
Honestly, Carry junglers is a lot less disturbing to me than the power of fog of war.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
jungler ganking is not a random affair. it's actually something that requires player execution to pull off. would you rather watch 20 minutes of safe farming by both sides because the risk reward for ganking is low instead?
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You wouldnt farm safely if you knew that the jungler wasn't likely to be up your ass. You are creating a false reality.
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EPT
