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On October 24 2013 07:09 Seuss wrote:
Honestly, there's way too much blind optimism and pessimism right now considering we have zero information regarding how anything is actually being implemented. For all we know the fourth jungle creep is in the fountain and champions tagged support get double the value of all gp10.
Trinket. Ward item with a specific 7th ward item slot for it.
I don't need the specifics: the concept in itself shows that Riot goes in the wrong direction from the start.
Got another example for you: Xelnath asks players suggestions about Shard of True Ice because he'd like to see it bought more. "I want AP supports to buy it, which active would make you do it?"
Doesn't even consider once in thread (nor did he even try to answer to people mentioning it) "how about it's not the active but paying a lot of gold for AP that's still less good than defense/CDR that makes us not buy it?"
And the worst part about the trinket shit is that Xelnath's posts about it (in the feedback threads he put up on NA and EUW) imply that it was created from players suggesting it and thinking it's a good idea and spamming about it. So here I want to be reasonable, but tbh I'm more than concerned about a possible "the vocal minority asks for it, so the game will become better if we follow their uninformed whim."
The "supports need more gold" instead of "supports need more options within their budget" may stem from this as well, considering all the dumb shit like "make supports get last hit assists!" that was spewed in these threads.
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Fuck taking feedback from LoL GD(official) in all honesty. Can't get reasonable suggestions because the average skill level is like silver 5, and those people speak loudest on every issue when they don't even understand it.
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On October 24 2013 07:59 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 07:09 Seuss wrote:
Honestly, there's way too much blind optimism and pessimism right now considering we have zero information regarding how anything is actually being implemented. For all we know the fourth jungle creep is in the fountain and champions tagged support get double the value of all gp10. Trinket. Ward item with a specific 7th ward item slot for it. I don't need the specifics: the concept in itself shows that Riot goes in the wrong direction from the start. Got another example for you: Xelnath asks players suggestions about Shard of True Ice because he'd like to see it bought more. "I want AP supports to buy it, which active would make you do it?" Doesn't even consider once in thread (nor did he even try to answer to people mentioning it) "how about it's not the active but paying a lot of gold for AP that's still less good than defense/CDR that makes us not buy it?"
Shard is priced at the correct pricepoint for supports. It really is the active that is ruining it.
If it had the Mikael's active and everything else stayed the same everybody would be so far up on its dick you would not believe it.
I don't understand why you think a ward item slot is a bad idea, either. I think it sounds like a great idea so long as there are more things than just wards that can go there (which is likely given how they described it) so that there's choice between what to buy there.
I wouldn't want a ward slot that you can only put wards in, but one with multiple different options I think is an excellent idea.
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Mana manipulator being a noobtrap buy doesn't do SOTI any favors. It is decently priced (piecemeal buildup too), but provides little that a support would actually want.
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Shard's total gold cost is ok, except the build up to it involves Kage's and Mana Manipulator.
Compare that to Sightsone which has a fucking sick active but also builds out of extremely efficient support items (i.e. HP).
AP and Mana Regen are not at the top of the list when I'm thinking of preferred stats to buy for a support (except when you're rich).
Edit:
Also Shard is cost inefficient as fuck. Who buys faerie charms and amplifying tomes except to get Athenes?
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If shard of true ice had mpen instead of ap, it would be a pretty sweet buy on most supports. AP is just so meh when the general AP ratios on supports are rather low.
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Was this discussed already (probably was), the going ons with this picture here:
support gold wtf
krepo with 500 more gold than their singed while singed still has ~200cs? Okay, krepo stole 2 kills and 9 assists, but still, that's a lot of gold.
Not to even mention Sona who has more gold than their akali luls. Seems like awesome time to be a support.
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Shard has an awkward build-up, although it and Twin Shadows are the "best" support items they designed for s3 from that pov.
The active also doesn't make up for the cost sunk in poor stats (mp5 and AP) if you have the slightest need for defenses (so melee supports and aggressive/exposed ones, like Thresh and Sona), and we already know that because of scaling vs base stats it's way easier/available for supports to make sure they get 2 rotations than to try and double its efficiency (eg. defenses/CDR > AP).
The problem with the ward item slot is that it means they're following requests/suggestions from a very low level community whose game understanding is twice worse than even mine, which is a recipe for disaster (y'know, the guys who want Pantheon to be less strong in lane, Vayne less strong late, etc.).
The only situation where I'd see this as a passable idea is when people stop buying wards because they run out of slots (not hard to see as a Viktor player where most of my games as him are roughly 55% support, 35% me, 10% other 3 for ward usage), which would also give people something else to spend 6-item build gold on than elixirs, and relieve a bit of the weight put on the support.
Other than that I'm not sure what it removes, but I don't see what it brings and as such it doesn't strike me as the idea you should go for.
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On October 24 2013 08:13 xes wrote:
Shard's total gold cost is ok, except the build up to it involves Kage's and Mana Manipulator.
Compare that to Sightsone which has a fucking sick active but also builds out of extremely efficient support items (i.e. HP).
AP and Mana Regen are not at the top of the list when I'm thinking of preferred stats to buy for a support (except when you're rich).
Edit:
Also Shard is cost inefficient as fuck. Who buys faerie charms and amplifying tomes except to get Athenes?
i dont think thats the reason mana manipulator is bad at all. sightstone is trash gold efficiency as its 975 gold for 180 hp if you wanted to buy items that would allow you to win a 2v2, sightstone would not be that item. what you are doing when you buy either sightstone or mana manipulator is using support gold to trade gold to your ADC. the manipulator does this by giving mana to your carry allowing him to spam more abilities to either win more trades or get more farm. sightstone allows you more freedom to farm away from turret by giving you vision. again both of these items actually serve the same purpose, the support pays money for no gain for themselves, but as a method to get more money to the adc.
the reason mana manipulator is a noob trap is that you could increase your gold from farming by learning to play, instead of building a mana regen crutch. if you just improved your mechanics you wouldnt need it half as much. but sightstone cant just be improved out of usefulness. there is no mechanical skill that gives free vision up the river.
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United States23745 Posts
On October 24 2013 08:16 daemir wrote:Was this discussed already (probably was), the going ons with this picture here: support gold wtfkrepo with 500 more gold than their singed while singed still has ~200cs? Okay, krepo stole 2 kills and 9 assists, but still, that's a lot of gold. Not to even mention Sona who has more gold than their akali luls. Seems like awesome time to be a support.
That's pretty insane.
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On October 24 2013 08:16 daemir wrote:Was this discussed already (probably was), the going ons with this picture here: support gold wtfkrepo with 500 more gold than their singed while singed still has ~200cs? Okay, krepo stole 2 kills and 9 assists, but still, that's a lot of gold. Not to even mention Sona who has more gold than their akali luls. Seems like awesome time to be a support.
Also worth noting the item slots that are photoshopped out. Prob new items.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 24 2013 08:15 JimmiC wrote:
As much people don't like it Riot is a business and makes there money of there player base buying shit. So saying silver 5's don't know shit and shouldn't be listened too is a dumb way of looking at it. Bronze to silver accounts for what % of players? Add gold 5 and you are at nearly 80% over 90% with gold added. The game will not be balanced and made for the pro level of play. It will be done for the majority of players. Then they will try to tweak to keep pros happy and keep them as a great advertizeing tool. But people thinking that because pro's are better or diamound players are better they therefore understand whats better for the game is not true. They better understand what is better for there level of play.
But face it, if your above silver your out fo the target market. Doesn't mean they don't care, just they don't care as much. Nor as a business should they.
There's a difference between addressing their complaints and taking their suggestions.
Obviously you should pay attention to all the complaints your playerbase has. But using their ham-fisted attempts at solutions such as a 7th ward item slot is almost never the best solution to their problems.
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On October 24 2013 08:16 daemir wrote:Was this discussed already (probably was), the going ons with this picture here: support gold wtfkrepo with 500 more gold than their singed while singed still has ~200cs? Okay, krepo stole 2 kills and 9 assists, but still, that's a lot of gold. Not to even mention Sona who has more gold than their akali luls. Seems like awesome time to be a support.
So what exactly is stopping the teams from playing like support annie or some other AP bully and building offensive items and crushing the lane with that income. If it's hard coded into the champion tags, that's a fucking terrible solution. If it's stuck in the 21 utility point, that doesn't solve that issue.
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mpen and hp are what i want on an ap support as well, if they made a cheaper version of haunting guise with regen instead of ap i think i'd buy that
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I don't understand why you'd want mpen on an AP support.
I certainly wouldn't want mpen on Janna or Soraka. I'd want AP.
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people normally mean champions like zyra when they say AP support. champs that actually get AP while supporting, not champs that happen to scale off ap.
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Yes they are?
What do you mean by AP support then? I am confused.
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On October 24 2013 08:30 turdburgler wrote:
people normally mean champions like zyra when they say AP support. champs that actually get AP while supporting, not champs that happen to scale off ap.
.... thresh? I sure wished thresh's passive is on someone like sona.
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A support whose damaging abilities scale off AP. The reason you prefer AP on Janna/Soraka is because they have team abilities that scale off AP but aren't diminished by magic resist. (They happen to have damage scaling off AP too, but that's incidental)
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EPT
