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On October 24 2013 09:04 turdburgler wrote:
im curious though. you guys are all saying that by painting people in to more fixed roles (+dmg to jungle monster items etc) they are hurting the game in the long term, presumably from limiting creativity etc. but you are all ok with support centric items and champions and masteries that all enforce the current meta and limit creativity?
"Support centric items" aren't really a thing. They should just be low cost items that are slot efficient that don't build into anything. That way people could buy them for a power spike but would be outscaled later. They also vary in utility so naturally a more utility focused player could buy them.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
this feels like wow balancing. these guys seriously call themselves "junglers" like it's a class or something
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^^ you mean cost efficient, you decidedly do not want them to be slot efficient.
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On October 24 2013 09:04 turdburgler wrote:
im curious though. you guys are all saying that by painting people in to more fixed roles (+dmg to jungle monster items etc) they are hurting the game in the long term, presumably from limiting creativity etc. but you are all ok with support centric items and champions and masteries that all enforce the current meta and limit creativity?
Low cost low stats high utility items don't force you to play supports, however if you choose to run one or more then they have access to items that will help them impact the game. There's the possibility, you don't force anything—if the item's just that good, then worst case one of your farming positions sacrifices a slot and delays its first big item to get that super duper team thingy.
The jungle items being almost necessary for you to clear and have effectiveness adjusted to your income (the reason why solo laner bought jungle items: they were designed to be as effective as "laning" items but on a jungler's budget) doesn't create anything. It just forces you to buy one of them, save for a few champions who can get away without it (Lee, Aatrox, etc.).
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On October 24 2013 09:09 UniversalSnip wrote:
^^ you mean cost efficient, you decidedly do not want them to be slot efficient.
Yea sorry it's late at night.
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On October 24 2013 09:08 oneofthem wrote:
this feels like wow balancing. these guys seriously call themselves "junglers" like it's a class or something
should we have to sit on the back of the bus too or what
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United States47024 Posts
On October 24 2013 09:04 turdburgler wrote:
im curious though. you guys are all saying that by painting people in to more fixed roles (+dmg to jungle monster items etc) they are hurting the game in the long term, presumably from limiting creativity etc. but you are all ok with support centric items and champions and masteries that all enforce the current meta and limit creativity?
Properly designed support items are flexible enough to not be pinned on a single player or role, but are compelling enough that they can be situationally considered on every hero depending on the timing and teamcomps you are playing.
The basic example from DotA is Mek, which is situatuonally strong even as a 1st/2nd position carry item. Basically the only item Riot ever got this right for is Locket and, well, they fucked that up.
Pretty much every item in DotA that is cited as a support item actually has enough flexibility to be considered on other heroes. Urn as an early item for 2nd position gankers, Vlads as a farming item on carries, Force Staff as an initiator's item, etc.
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not too pleased that that screenshot has basically reverie and locket. There are so many item actives that are exciting or interesting they could have, I really hope we don't end up with those two as the tier one. EDIT: oh I get it the blank spots are new items. hurrr
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On October 24 2013 08:24 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 08:16 daemir wrote:Was this discussed already (probably was), the going ons with this picture here: support gold wtfkrepo with 500 more gold than their singed while singed still has ~200cs? Okay, krepo stole 2 kills and 9 assists, but still, that's a lot of gold. Not to even mention Sona who has more gold than their akali luls. Seems like awesome time to be a support. So what exactly is stopping the teams from playing like support annie or some other AP bully and building offensive items and crushing the lane with that income. If it's hard coded into the champion tags, that's a fucking terrible solution. If it's stuck in the 21 utility point, that doesn't solve that issue.
You have to buy those edited-out items first and accumulate enough money to buy those offensive items i think.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
supports just needed a bit more survivability lategame and maybe more playmaking potential with items. they usually have a big team fight ulti that decides their entire purpose, and that was getting pretty bland.
solving this through itemization rather than 'scaling' would be the way to go as it would add more tactics and plays.
another issue with lol right now is the difficulty of forcing engages. part of this is the vision control, but it's also the lack of engage items/skills. the reliance upon a 5 minute cd flash for some engage heroes just highlights this problem, so does the dominance of poke comps. adding a support item that functions like a force staff would go a long way towards solving this. you can't cast it on yourself, so split pushers can't rely on it to escape, while a small gank squad can use it to catch people. or another formulation that benefit engaging rather than disengage.
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On October 24 2013 09:15 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 08:24 Amui wrote:On October 24 2013 08:16 daemir wrote:Was this discussed already (probably was), the going ons with this picture here: support gold wtfkrepo with 500 more gold than their singed while singed still has ~200cs? Okay, krepo stole 2 kills and 9 assists, but still, that's a lot of gold. Not to even mention Sona who has more gold than their akali luls. Seems like awesome time to be a support. So what exactly is stopping the teams from playing like support annie or some other AP bully and building offensive items and crushing the lane with that income. If it's hard coded into the champion tags, that's a fucking terrible solution. If it's stuck in the 21 utility point, that doesn't solve that issue. You have to buy those edited-out items first and accumulate enough money to buy those offensive items i think.
Quick analysis. By the slots missing, one is philo(or a philo upgrade) that builds into shurelya's. Other is most likely a kage's upgrade.
So you can't buy AP without gimping your early game(judging by the gold income). But you could definitely get enough money for midgame AP unless the support items give more gold the more you upgrade them, at which point they're just glorified Gp10's, and snowballs ridiculously hard for a support who gets ahead(didn't they want to reduce it?). Still could go for a midgame AP transition.
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I don't see the need for gp10 items to exist at all personally and I'll be disappointed if they're still around. Removing them would open up a lot of room to push the slot inefficiency and utility of support items - right now the benefit of the gp10 is baked into their total cost so they end up being higher tier items than they "should" be.
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Baa?21245 Posts
also its really dumb to test changes by assembling random pro players and throwing them into a whole new meta lol it really doesnt prove anything
riot pls
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it proves you can get everyone HYPED without saying anything of substance.
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United States37500 Posts
On October 24 2013 09:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
also its really dumb to test changes by assembling random pro players and throwing them into a whole new meta lol it really doesnt prove anything
riot pls
the fuck, how else would you test changes?
The amount of bitching lately about season changes is hitting a threshold.
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well if they were serious they would have invited whole teams so that they can actually discuss things in their normal manner and apply their current strats to the changes and see how that effects them, instead of playing solo queue/all stars style and just seeing what happens.
they also could have put an NDA on the whole thing because allowing players to leak information builds hype and expectation which can only backfire if the changes arent what are expected.
so theres that i guess.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
these test game stats look like an aram game. not sure if serious test
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Weird.
At least CLG is only 1 player away from being likable now.
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honestly, all this speculation heralding the doom of League and how stupid Morello and co are is really stupid until we see actual solid changes. One screenshot with half of the stuff blacked out doesn't really tell much.
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EPT
