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On October 24 2013 06:25 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 06:20 yamato77 wrote:On October 24 2013 05:40 LaM wrote:On October 24 2013 05:38 Slusher wrote:
I am actually extremely skeptical of this much undeniable gold being added to the game but I'm trying my hardest to maintain a wait and see attitude. I'm not sure why supports and junglers need as much gold as solo laners and ADs lol. Maybe they should just make 5 solo lanes. So supports and junglers aren't all buying the same items every game, giving them real itemization options and the ability to make strategical decisions with their gold? Just because it's been the norm to have your jungler/support having almost no gold and being largely supportive in nature doesn't mean it always has to be that way. By allowing the jungle position more gold, you INCREASE jungler diversity and INCREASE jungle strategical options because they don't ALWAYS have to be champions that don't need a lot of farm. We actually have this argument literally once a week. I'm going to sum up what everyone winds up agreeing upon 1) If you want to carry from jungle why not just play a solo lane where there's more farm which then leads to the question "Why don't we put more gold in the jungle then?" 2) If there's more gold in the jungle then solo lanes will take camps because it's better served to the multiplicative scaling etc etc 3) The problem of junglers buying the same items is because there are no other attractive team oriented items other than Aegis . That isn't a problem with gold flow, it's a problem with itemization 4) Supports buy wards cause it's the best thing they can buy This debate is getting really, really, really old
You're wrong. - We don't have that debate every week.
- The consensus you're implying only exists insofar as following the current meta is concerned.
- The fourth jungle camp, presuming Riot is adding it for the reasons I and others have outlined here before, addresses the "Solo lanes will just take jungle camps" issue.
- The itemization problem you describe is a separate issue.
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Weren't they planning on nerfing zyra's base damages since support zyra = OP?
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I really like the idea of a fourth jungle camp. I have thought for some time now that it's the best way to "fix" the jungle, I'd be interested to see what other people think about it.
Also interested in where people think it's gonna go.
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On October 24 2013 06:45 Ghost-z wrote:Weren't they planning on nerfing zyra's base damages since support zyra = OP?
I'm pretty sure that ratio change is on top of base damage reduction already "live" on the pbe
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On October 24 2013 06:47 Ketara wrote:
I really like the idea of a fourth jungle camp. I have thought for some time now that it's the best way to "fix" the jungle, I'd be interested to see what other people think about it.
Also interested in where people think it's gonna go.
Between wolves and inner sidelane turret is my guess.
Some map geometry will need to be tweaked.
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On October 24 2013 06:38 Requizen wrote:
I like how people are saying "it sucks for Junglers and supports to buy the same items every game".
Hi ADCs, I don't see anyone complaining about you~
Fair enough.
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On October 24 2013 05:47 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 05:18 Amui wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Apparently the point behind giving supports more gold is so that they can add stat <-> utility scaling. Ex. Janna shield AD bonus scales off of AP. Possibly stuff like soraka W armor off AP, etc. Not sold on this approach, because that basically means that you will never see a champion designed as a support EVER do something other than support. If the janna shield AD bonus also increased with AP, you'd see a corresponding nerf to her AP scaling elsewhere, and that hurts a laner far more than it hurts a support. i agree, but i still think thats a better situation than current. ive said before that i believe the game would be better if the whole idea of a 'support' champ was removed, and supporting became something more optional and/or abstract like 'initiator' or whatever. but if they are going to keep support champs in the game i think its at least interesting to see how a new form of scaling works out. offtopic, in starcraft the leagues (used to) roughly correspond to 20% skill segments of the player base, and i always assumed league was the same. bronze bottom 20%, silver 20-40% etc. but someone in an offhand comment on reddit early said that being in gold put you in the top 10% of people? does anyone have the official breakdown to hand?
http://www.lolsummoners.com/stats/rankings/na
Gold is closer to 17% right now.
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Baa?21243 Posts
what would an extra jungle camp do besides have another camp that is left untaken as junglers sit in a lane brush for 30 seconds waiting to gank lol
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On October 24 2013 06:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
what would an extra jungle camp do besides have another camp that is left untaken as junglers sit in a lane brush for 30 seconds waiting to gank lol
Mid laner can take both camps if mid is unsafe to farm.
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Wards expire too fast. In Dota2, wards last 6 minutes, and they just got buffed to 7 minutes. In LoL, a ward only last 3 minutes.
If you take time, for example, Sona to put a ward. Her ms is 330, and the distance between 2 nexus is roughly 20,000 units. So Sona takes roughly 30 seconds alone to run from base to mid (the shortest lane) to ward. Overall, Sona spends half of her time running to put ward, and only has like 1 minutes left to do anything else.
If the ward timer got buffed to 4 minutes, we may see supports be able to get some items.
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I think people would understand more about why Meteos jungle style didn't catch on if they got to play more than one international series at worlds.
but if the reason is what it appears to be from my view the new camp won't change much.
last year after the play tests we got the posts about how OP Saint's jungle GP was etc etc and nothing like that ever came to light.
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On October 24 2013 06:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
what would an extra jungle camp do besides have another camp that is left untaken as junglers sit in a lane brush for 30 seconds waiting to gank lol
It would increase variety of viable junglers by giving things to do to junglers who would prefer farming to ganking, and allow the total farmable gold in the jungle to increase without A - giving extra gold to gank heavy junglers (who will never have time to clear the extra camp) or B - increasing the incentive for laners to take jungle camps. In fact it reduces the burden of laners taking jungle camps by giving more options for what camps to take, and if the camp is positioned properly will remove the double golem imbalances that the lanes have.
That's how I see it, anyway.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On October 24 2013 06:55 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 06:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
what would an extra jungle camp do besides have another camp that is left untaken as junglers sit in a lane brush for 30 seconds waiting to gank lol Mid laner can take both camps if mid is unsafe to farm.
30s waves means you barely have time to farm wraiths wolves as is no need for a third camp
On October 24 2013 06:57 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 06:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
what would an extra jungle camp do besides have another camp that is left untaken as junglers sit in a lane brush for 30 seconds waiting to gank lol It would increase variety of viable junglers by giving things to do to junglers who would prefer farming to ganking, and allow the total farmable gold in the jungle to increase without A - giving extra gold to gank heavy junglers (who will never have time to clear the extra camp) or B - increasing the incentive for laners to take jungle camps. In fact it reduces the burden of laners taking jungle camps by giving more options for what camps to take, and if the camp is positioned properly will remove the double golem imbalances that the lanes have. That's how I see it, anyway.
doesnt matter farming junglers is never gonna work because your team cant 4v5 vs good opponents
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That might be true Csheep, it may just never be able to work.
But it's the best option for moving towards getting it to work, IMO. Solves a lot of existing problems.
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Took me 2 games and 40 kills to get garen banned in EU inhouses
wheres the garen haters we have vods
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Baa?21243 Posts
On October 24 2013 07:02 Slayer91 wrote:
Took me 2 games and 40 kills to get garen banned in EU inhouses
wheres the garen haters we have vods
garen is obviously a pubstomper but bad in competitive play
shitcombo where you at??
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it was technically ORGANIZED play
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do you know how much gold you can get on live by spamming camps? it's a lot more than you might think.
@Below, thats the point.....
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Baa?21243 Posts
On October 24 2013 07:04 Slayer91 wrote:
it was technically ORGANIZED play
doesnt mean its not win lane win game skill disparity
On October 24 2013 07:05 Slusher wrote:
do you know how much gold you can get on live by spamming camps? it's a lot more than you might think.
again, doesnt matter lol your team is gonna go 0-20 4v5 while the jungler cries about how "omfg team all feed i farm so much but cant carry"
On October 24 2013 07:05 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 06:57 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On October 24 2013 06:55 Numy wrote:On October 24 2013 06:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
what would an extra jungle camp do besides have another camp that is left untaken as junglers sit in a lane brush for 30 seconds waiting to gank lol Mid laner can take both camps if mid is unsafe to farm. 30s waves means you barely have time to farm wraiths wolves as is no need for a third camp On October 24 2013 06:57 Ketara wrote:On October 24 2013 06:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
what would an extra jungle camp do besides have another camp that is left untaken as junglers sit in a lane brush for 30 seconds waiting to gank lol It would increase variety of viable junglers by giving things to do to junglers who would prefer farming to ganking, and allow the total farmable gold in the jungle to increase without A - giving extra gold to gank heavy junglers (who will never have time to clear the extra camp) or B - increasing the incentive for laners to take jungle camps. In fact it reduces the burden of laners taking jungle camps by giving more options for what camps to take, and if the camp is positioned properly will remove the double golem imbalances that the lanes have. That's how I see it, anyway. doesnt matter farming junglers is never gonna work because your team cant 4v5 vs good opponents Except, increasing farm in the jungle is an earlygame goal, so the jungler has an actual decision to make between taking camps and a lvl 3/4 gank. Most junglers seem to have made the decision that this "choice" really is not a choice at all (with one notable exception, in NA), because even a failed gank sets the laner you have ganked further behind than you get behind from lack of farming.
its still not a choice your lanesare gonna lose 5v4 vs competent people, period, and a jungler with a bit more gold isnt gonna help with any of that
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On October 24 2013 06:57 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 06:55 Numy wrote:On October 24 2013 06:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
what would an extra jungle camp do besides have another camp that is left untaken as junglers sit in a lane brush for 30 seconds waiting to gank lol Mid laner can take both camps if mid is unsafe to farm. 30s waves means you barely have time to farm wraiths wolves as is no need for a third camp Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 06:57 Ketara wrote:On October 24 2013 06:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
what would an extra jungle camp do besides have another camp that is left untaken as junglers sit in a lane brush for 30 seconds waiting to gank lol It would increase variety of viable junglers by giving things to do to junglers who would prefer farming to ganking, and allow the total farmable gold in the jungle to increase without A - giving extra gold to gank heavy junglers (who will never have time to clear the extra camp) or B - increasing the incentive for laners to take jungle camps. In fact it reduces the burden of laners taking jungle camps by giving more options for what camps to take, and if the camp is positioned properly will remove the double golem imbalances that the lanes have. That's how I see it, anyway. doesnt matter farming junglers is never gonna work because your team cant 4v5 vs good opponents
Except, increasing farm in the jungle is an earlygame goal, so the jungler has an actual decision to make between taking camps and a lvl 3/4 gank. Most junglers seem to have made the decision that this "choice" really is not a choice at all (with one notable exception, in NA), because even a failed gank sets the laner you have ganked further behind than you get behind from lack of farming.
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EPT
