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United States47024 Posts
On October 24 2013 03:21 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 03:20 onlywonderboy wrote:On October 24 2013 03:18 Numy wrote:On October 24 2013 03:17 wei2coolman wrote:On October 24 2013 03:14 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I still don't understand what's so bad about the current system... Too much vision. Support no items. That isn't really the fault of the system though. It's more Riots understanding of what a support item needs to be. Eh, vision is probably too damn powerful. I'm interested to see how Riot implements the idea of scaling support utility instead of damage. Maybe but you have to understand that all the "support" items in S3 are way overpriced and don't really give much benefit. It's hard to see how powerful vision would be if there was decent support items. Stuff like Medallion(In dota) is the perfect price tier. LoL just has nothing in a proper price range.
The lack of strong team utility items actually directly contributes to the strength of vision.
Vision is strongest when teams need to spread out and farm and weakest when teams are going to 5-man objectives and fights (when you are going to a specific objective, you need concentrated vision around that objective, whereas if you are farming and spread out you need dispersed vision everywhere to cover everyone). The lack of strong team supportive items, coupled to the nerfs to the early game power of the few that were in the game (Aegis, Locket) severely blunts the strength of early teamfight timings (the most notable one being the "I have Aegis and you don't" one), which in turn puts a greater emphasis on vision, map control, and farming efficiency than up-front teamfighting ability.
On October 24 2013 03:24 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 03:20 TheYango wrote:
My favorite version of the game was still mid-late season 1 (Ori patch probably the best estimation), and I still have yet to play a version of the game I enjoyed more than that one. Yango confirmed as dirty pirate loving scallywag.
I played more Udyr in that version than GP jungle tbh. I always felt dirty playing GP in that version, lol.
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United States23745 Posts
On October 24 2013 03:25 Amui wrote:
Problem - support items are too expensive for supports to get, and aren't good enough.
TL Solution: Lower the cost of support items.
Riot Solution: Give supports more gold, and see if they buy the support items.
IDK guys, maybe our logic is flawed.
Items that they have said they are going to be refining. Let's at least wait till we see the new support items before we completely shit on the new idea. If the new items are still bad I will be the first to admit Riot fucked up.
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On October 24 2013 03:25 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 03:21 Numy wrote:On October 24 2013 03:20 onlywonderboy wrote:On October 24 2013 03:18 Numy wrote:On October 24 2013 03:17 wei2coolman wrote:On October 24 2013 03:14 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I still don't understand what's so bad about the current system... Too much vision. Support no items. That isn't really the fault of the system though. It's more Riots understanding of what a support item needs to be. Eh, vision is probably too damn powerful. I'm interested to see how Riot implements the idea of scaling support utility instead of damage. Maybe but you have to understand that all the "support" items in S3 are way overpriced and don't really give much benefit. It's hard to see how powerful vision would be if there was decent support items. Stuff like Medallion(In dota) is the perfect price tier. LoL just has nothing in a proper price range. The lack of strong team utility items actually directly contributes to the strength of vision. Vision is strongest when teams need to spread out and farm and weakest when teams are going to 5-man objectives and fights (when you are going to a specific objective, you need concentrated vision around that objective, whereas if you are farming and spread out you need dispersed vision everywhere to cover everyone). The lack of strong team supportive items, coupled to the nerfs to the early game power of the few that were in the game (Aegis, Locket) severely blunts the strength of early teamfight timings (the most notable one being the "I have Aegis and you don't" one), which in turn puts a greater emphasis on vision, map control, and farming efficiency than up-front teamfighting ability. Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 03:24 wei2coolman wrote:On October 24 2013 03:20 TheYango wrote:
My favorite version of the game was still mid-late season 1 (Ori patch probably the best estimation), and I still have yet to play a version of the game I enjoyed more than that one. Yango confirmed as dirty pirate loving scallywag. I played more Udyr in that version than GP jungle tbh. I always felt dirty playing GP in that version, lol.
Wtf. Udyr was just as bonkers as gp was during that time.
Knowing riot, new support items probably going to have more regen and ap
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United States47024 Posts
Yeah I know that. 
But it's OK, because there were a lot of bonkers junglers back then. Including the ones that people wouldn't yet play for a few versions because they didn't realize how bonkers they were yet (Lee Sin).
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Judging by the pre-season preview posted today it looks like 12 more months of the same draft format.
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Man. I totally knew lee sin was bonkers op'd during that time. But no one could land his q.
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Support items are so useless that supports just buy wards 24/7 instead? Ppph, that's a problem. Take away the wards, that way they'll have to build items! Game solved!
I'm also really excited for the inexplicable jungle changes that will allow junglers to 'carry from the jungle' again. Maybe they'll reduce camp spawn times and gold rewards even more, without realizing that that does the exact complete polar opposite of what they've stated they want. Maybe they'll add a new item that blatantly stacks off of jungle monster kills, so that you can spend 20 minutes in the jungle and come out with a big, scary item that gives you lots of stacks and makes you really strong, which is every jungler's non-interactive dream! Who knows!!!
EDIT: basically I hope they don't fuck this up like they did S3. Those changes made not a lot of sense.
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about time they limit wards... I'm gold ... No one wards ... even supports with sightstone don't ward... I buy wards when i back everytime (top lane usually) but the mid laner/jungler/adc never buys them. it's 75 gold... lol...
3 wards max per player would be great... supports shouldn't have to ward every brush and lane mid game.
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On October 24 2013 03:25 tissue wrote:Don't have too much faith in Riot but whatever, it's still going to be fun. Since everyone has limited ward buying now, you can train your sixth sense in solo queue. Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 03:25 Amui wrote:
Problem - support items are too expensive for supports to get, and aren't good enough.
TL Solution: Lower the cost of support items.
Riot Solution: Give supports more gold, and see if they buy the support items.
IDK guys, maybe our logic is flawed. Problem - most powerful support item is a stack of pinks Riot Solution - restrict support warding, spread out warding among all team members, and see if they buy wards
If the other lanes don't pick up the warding then they'll reduce vision. Good in my book.
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Can someone who knows more about competitive play comment on the 'reduce snowballing' goal? Is that an issue? That the team who's winning gets advantages? Is it that a small advantage early on in lane is very easy to turn into an insurmountable one without much of a chance by the opponent to come back? I'm just not really sure what they're talking about, there.
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Less vision? I for one welcome our new Shaco/Rammus/other powerful ganker overlords.
The thing about fun is that it's always going to be more fun for one person than the other. Too much vision = less excitement, gank-heavy junglers suffer, etc. Too little vision = herbivores suffer, tower hugging, etc.
I dunno. I'll just pick Teemo anyway.
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On October 24 2013 03:41 Eiii wrote:
Can someone who knows more about competitive play comment on the 'reduce snowballing' goal? Is that an issue? That the team who's winning gets advantages? Is it that a small advantage early on in lane is very easy to turn into an insurmountable one without much of a chance by the opponent to come back? I'm just not really sure what they're talking about, there.
Most of the time with top level teams, the team that gets the first few kills or turret or dragon can snowball the advantage into a 5k+ gold lead pretty quickly, resulting in a hella rolly game.
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I feel like the snowballing problem (a fairly small early lead at high levels of play can be parlayed all the way to a win) is partially a problem because of Riot intentionally trying to make every game a power curve mirror.
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United States47024 Posts
I don't agree with that at all. Top level games at Worlds were not exceptionally snowbally in my eyes.
The only way top-level games would appear snowbally is if you're watching exclusively EU games where teams are poorer at retaining vision control and farming efficiency in losing games than Asian teams but also not shitty enough to throw lategame the way NA teams do.
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On October 24 2013 03:41 Eiii wrote:
Can someone who knows more about competitive play comment on the 'reduce snowballing' goal? Is that an issue? That the team who's winning gets advantages? Is it that a small advantage early on in lane is very easy to turn into an insurmountable one without much of a chance by the opponent to come back? I'm just not really sure what they're talking about, there.
The nature of LoL in that everyone has scaling abilities and Riot intentionally homogenized power curves means that if a team is ahead it requires the team ahead to make mistakes more than the team behind to do anything to come back. Top tier teams like SKT don't make such mistakes and generally never lose a lead but they also never really spiral out of control from basic early mistakes.
It's an issue but it's also not. The genre by it's nature is about getting ahead and winning so that will always be a factor. The real issue is with the homogenization that there is no real diversification of strategies aside from "first team to get ahead" style.
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On October 24 2013 03:46 TheYango wrote:
I don't agree with that at all. Top level games at Worlds were not exceptionally snowbally in my eyes.
The only way top-level games would appear snowbally is if you're watching exclusively EU games where teams are poorer at retaining vision control and farming efficiency in losing games than Asian teams but also not shitty enough to throw lategame they way NA teams do.
Not snowbally?? 100 percent win percentage of first inhib... like 96 % for baron... There are no comebacks because once the lanes push... your whole jungle is warded and cleared from the other team.. u can't move out of your base.
All the top champs are the snowball champs. C9 lost first blood in game 3... they lost the game 1 min in. That's not snowbally?? LOL
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Yango, why you no work for Riot and make game better?
On October 24 2013 03:49 Malphite wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 03:46 TheYango wrote:
I don't agree with that at all. Top level games at Worlds were not exceptionally snowbally in my eyes.
The only way top-level games would appear snowbally is if you're watching exclusively EU games where teams are poorer at retaining vision control and farming efficiency in losing games than Asian teams but also not shitty enough to throw lategame they way NA teams do. Not snowbally?? 100 percent win percentage of first inhib... like 96 % for baron... There are no comebacks because once the lanes push... your whole jungle is warded and cleared from the other team.. u can't move out of your base. All the top champs are the snowball champs. C9 lost first blood in game 3... they lost the game 1 min in. That's not snowbally?? LOL
Fnatic vs Royal.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 24 2013 03:49 Malphite wrote:
Not snowbally?? 100 percent win percentage of first inhib... like 96 % for baron...
Those are incredibly loaded statistics because nobody risks Baron or high ground unless they're already ahead enough to have a very low chance of losing to begin with.
High ground push throws and Baron throws are signs of teams playing poorly, not a game that allows for comebacks.
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I mean it's not a big problem for me, I personally hate stuff like Phoenix from vanilla MvC3 where the score does not matter until dark Phoenix is online.
I could be way off the mark, because I didn't understand the game much back then, but TI2 E-blade pickup for Morph felt this way, game didn't actually start until the eblade pickup, and only then could you tell if the non-morpling team was actually winning.
on the flip side this is opinion and some people might find this stuff more interesting.
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more than anything the biggest letdown for me will be no change of the draft format, which was not mentioned in the preview so I doubt it's happening.
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EPT
