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On September 13 2013 04:01 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 03:57 Lord Tolkien wrote:
I am abit apprehensive about this news. On the one hand, I would be absolutely thrilled if they could raise the level of competition in the NA LCS. On the other: the potential for the precedent to be set for the NA LCS to become like SC2's WCS. The residency requirement by itself should be a significant factor that prevents it from being detrimental for the NA scene, but only so long as it isn't a flood of teams, so to speak.
On the other hand, I am a whole-hearted advocate of labor mobility, and the recruitment of foreign players into more domestic leagues is certainly not unheard of. Just consider the number of Russians, Swedes, Canadians (Hockey Players #1 export), etc., in the NHL, for instance. So long as efforts are made to humanize them (so they aren't "faceless Koreans"), I don't think introduction of foreign players onto NA LCS teams (or forming teams of their own) would "kill" the NA scene. Idk if I'd call Woong faceless lol
Well, the only exposure most NA fans have had was the whole screen looking affair during the S2 finals, and calls of cheating etc. They don't know anything else about him.
Since you quoted me before I edited my example in, back in S1/S2 people didn't GAF about imaqtpie besides remarking on his hair. Now, he has a massive fanbase because he started streaming. Developing a player's character and personality in the minds of the fans is just as important to an eSport as the competition itself.
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On September 13 2013 03:57 Lord Tolkien wrote:
I am abit apprehensive about this news. On the one hand, I would be absolutely thrilled if they could raise the level of competition in the NA LCS. On the other: the potential for the precedent to be set for the NA LCS to become like SC2's WCS. The residency requirement by itself should be a significant factor that prevents it from being detrimental for the NA scene, but only so long as it isn't a flood of teams, so to speak.
On the other hand, I am a whole-hearted advocate of labor mobility, and the recruitment of foreign players into more domestic leagues is certainly not unheard of. Just consider the number of Russians, Swedes, Canadians (Hockey Players #1 export), etc., in the NHL, for instance. So long as efforts are made to humanize them (so they aren't "faceless Koreans"), I don't think introduction of foreign players onto NA LCS teams (or forming teams of their own) would "kill" the NA scene.
C9 raised the level of competition in the LCS. That really improved the NA teams.... (You could argue Vulcun did improve drastically, thats about it)
Were CLG.eu much better for playing in OGN and staying in Korea? It didn't help CLG.na any.
I don't know where this 'raising the level of competition' thing started but it doesn't make any sense to me. I play Rafa Nadal in tennis 100 times. He beats me in all 100. Am I magically a better player? I lose 100 solo q games to people better than me. Did I improve? (The answer may be yes...I'm just not sure how to prove it, or what proof there is)
The problem with comparing the movement of players to the NHL is that there is huge infrastructure for hockey players. You can play hockey professionally in North America, plus many other European countries. There is probably like 3,000 professional hockey players in the world, of course its not going to hurt any country if 50 of the 3,000 are now Korean and they made 50 Canadians unemployed. Yet with 40 paid NA positions and 40 paid EU positions, each one of them is precious. If 5 Koreans join and eliminate 5 'westerners' you just lost 12% of the North American population of pro LoL players.
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Quantic will certainly qualify for relegations. There are going to be two more LANs which they can qualify through or they can just get to the top 4 in ranked 5s (which should be really easy for them). I'm also pretty positive that they could beat Curse, Coast, or VES so they're almost certainly going to be in the LCS next season. Whether they'll be as good as C9, Vulcun, or TSM remains to be seen though (but they probably will be imoimo).
On September 13 2013 03:26 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 03:25 DonKey_ wrote:
So this means these KR players can only scrim with NA teams now? Not sure how bad the ping difference would be. None? cuz they're moving to NA...
They actually already live here. They announced this after they moved to LA.
On September 13 2013 03:31 Amethyst21 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 03:20 onlywonderboy wrote:
That's a pretty doomsday scenario. Finding five players willing to move to NA and live here is a pretty tall order. Plus if too many KR players come over the level of competition rises and it's not nearly as easy, making it less appealing. Yeah it's so difficult to offer players a salary and a house in one of the nicest places in the world to play video games. Certainly no one will be interested in that.
Not many B-tier pros are going to be interested in leaving their homes for at least a year to move to America. This isn't like Starcraft where there are just tons of semi-pro players. It's possible that league will grow more and more in Korea but the team aspect alone should reduce the number of Koreans who want to take a chance here.
Also, if sponsors just start picking up random Korean players from solo queue I doubt they could compete with NA LCS teams (and if they could then I really wouldn't want to see those teams in the LCS to begin with).
On September 13 2013 03:31 Amethyst21 wrote:
I actually have a solution already - Expand the LCS to 10 teams. Allow a maximum of 2 'foreign' teams. The foreign team that finishes behind the other is eligible to be relegated and replaced by another foreign team. Domestic Promotion/Relegation stays the same. People get their Korean teams to win everything raise the level of play and 8 teams are preserved to make sure NA talent stays in the scene.
That sounds really stupid. If they did something like that Curse would need to drop Nyjacky/Edward as it'd only be fair. Vulcun would need to drop Bloodwater. Requiring you to be an American citizen to play in the league would be completely unprecedented and frankly a bit xenophobic. If a team of five guys is willing to live here they should be allowed to compete imo.
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On September 12 2013 16:10 Kouda wrote:
Yo. Velocity is fucked LOL
Might need some KY Jelly for the incoming anus pounding...
In all honesty though, I really feel sorry for them. Even though they had an arguably easy road to get into the LCS, losing games and getting bashed by all the LCS viewers is some real harsh stuff.
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On September 13 2013 04:01 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 03:57 Lord Tolkien wrote:
I am abit apprehensive about this news. On the one hand, I would be absolutely thrilled if they could raise the level of competition in the NA LCS. On the other: the potential for the precedent to be set for the NA LCS to become like SC2's WCS. The residency requirement by itself should be a significant factor that prevents it from being detrimental for the NA scene, but only so long as it isn't a flood of teams, so to speak.
On the other hand, I am a whole-hearted advocate of labor mobility, and the recruitment of foreign players into more domestic leagues is certainly not unheard of. Just consider the number of Russians, Swedes, Canadians (Hockey Players #1 export), etc., in the NHL, for instance. So long as efforts are made to humanize them (so they aren't "faceless Koreans"), I don't think introduction of foreign players onto NA LCS teams (or forming teams of their own) would "kill" the NA scene. Idk if I'd call Woong faceless lol
Neither is locodoco, but that's not the point. the point is how the overall audience views these players, cuz thats what sponsors looks at, not the hardcore niche pro scene followers that actually know these players have history/personalities.
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God damn immigrants coming to murica and taking our jerbs!!!
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On September 13 2013 04:06 Amethyst21 wrote:
I don't know where this 'raising the level of competition' thing started but it doesn't make any sense to me. I play Rafa Nadal in tennis 100 times. He beats me in all 100. Am I magically a better player?
I certainly believe so. If you're already a lower tier Tennis pro and get the chance to train against this guy (I have no idea about tennis, sorry!) you are bound to get better, or get replaced by someone better than you if you can't manage to improve to save your life. The way you raise the overall level of competition of a scene can't be reduced to individuals though, because in order to make it more competitive in the first place, sub-par individuals need to get switched out and replaced. That's how Korea works. It's not that every Korean is magically good, but because of the cut throat nature of the scene only the very best make it to a top team. If you play for SKT and underperform you will be out of the door tomorrow. It's like evolution man, survival of the fittest or something, you either improve with all your power or someone else takes your place. 
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Since I can feel myself getting tilted by this discussion, I'm going to bow out. I do feel passionately about this, and I hope I've made myself clear. I really hope this works out for everyone, and I really am glad to see Loco in the LCS because he's a great personality.
I'm just very concerned about the precedent being set, and once the horse is gone - you can't lock the door.
Cheers all.
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On September 13 2013 04:06 Amethyst21 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 03:57 Lord Tolkien wrote:
I am abit apprehensive about this news. On the one hand, I would be absolutely thrilled if they could raise the level of competition in the NA LCS. On the other: the potential for the precedent to be set for the NA LCS to become like SC2's WCS. The residency requirement by itself should be a significant factor that prevents it from being detrimental for the NA scene, but only so long as it isn't a flood of teams, so to speak.
On the other hand, I am a whole-hearted advocate of labor mobility, and the recruitment of foreign players into more domestic leagues is certainly not unheard of. Just consider the number of Russians, Swedes, Canadians (Hockey Players #1 export), etc., in the NHL, for instance. So long as efforts are made to humanize them (so they aren't "faceless Koreans"), I don't think introduction of foreign players onto NA LCS teams (or forming teams of their own) would "kill" the NA scene. The problem with comparing the movement of players to the NHL is that there is huge infrastructure for hockey players. You can play hockey professionally in North America, plus many other European countries. There is probably like 3,000 professional hockey players in the world, of course its not going to hurt any country if 50 of the 3,000 are now Korean and they made 50 Canadians unemployed. Yet with 40 paid NA positions and 40 paid EU positions, each one of them is precious. If 5 Koreans join and eliminate 5 'westerners' you just lost 12% of the North American population of pro LoL players.
True enough, at present the NA (and a slightly lesser extent, EU) infrastructure is quite limited, so it can't be anywhere close to the same scale as that present in more established international sports, be it baseball, hockey, etc, and likely won't be anytime soon. However, the point still stands in that these teams and sports aren't unwatchable for the average fan, whom can still be readily attached to a sports team despite being filled with "foreign" players.
And I would like to specifically point out:
I don't know where this 'raising the level of competition' thing started but it doesn't make any sense to me. I play Rafa Nadal in tennis 100 times. He beats me in all 100. Am I magically a better player? I lose 100 solo q games to people better than me. Did I improve? (The answer may be yes...I'm just not sure how to prove it, or what proof there is)
Yes. you learn, gain, and improve FAR more from losing than you do from winning, and keep in mind that the Korean teams need to live in the US (and play on US servers), provided you sit down and figure out what they did better than you and what you did wrong. They need to constantly play to maintain their edge (both soloQ and scrim LCS teams), and in the long run provides a great deal of competitive pressure and opportunities for growth and improvement. If I have holes in my top lane play and I keep winning, those holes aren't exposed. If someone beats me and exploits those problems, I learn what the flaws in my play are and I improve by patching them up.
Provided the KR teams/players are anywhere close to decent, at any rate. I'm of the opinion that this team definitely won't qualify for S4 WCs (though I can be wrong), because the NA/EU LCS has absolutely helped the NA teams improve competitively (the gap is closer than what it was near the end of S2/beginning of S3, at any rate).
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I'm not entirely certain this going to be replicable with any frequency. You need an 8-16th place Korean team(if they are much better than that, they'll get collectively or individually poached by a Korean org) that are better than the 8th best NA team without the benefit of the infrastructure provided by a Korean team(which means you probably need a guy that was on one of those teams and has been released to act as a player and coach), and this has to end up being cheaper for the NA org doing it than just buying an LCS team or high placing amateur team because some/all of your guys won't be able to generate content for their audience due to not speaking English.
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United States37500 Posts
Funny how they don't have level 30 accounts, so Loco is stomping normal games right now on NA with his team.
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On September 13 2013 04:51 NeoIllusions wrote:
Funny how they don't have level 30 accounts, so Loco is stomping normal games right now on NA with his team.
If they are streaming that, do you have a link to the stream?
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United States37500 Posts
On September 13 2013 04:55 57 Corvette wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:51 NeoIllusions wrote:
Funny how they don't have level 30 accounts, so Loco is stomping normal games right now on NA with his team. If they are streaming that, do you have a link to the stream?
They're not streaming, I'm just spectating through client.
Edit: and these games are just roflstomps, nothing to really talk about either.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On September 13 2013 04:55 57 Corvette wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:51 NeoIllusions wrote:
Funny how they don't have level 30 accounts, so Loco is stomping normal games right now on NA with his team. If they are streaming that, do you have a link to the stream?
BallerIllusions here probably has Loco on his FL and is speccing him.
Corvette plz.
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On September 13 2013 04:51 NeoIllusions wrote:
Funny how they don't have level 30 accounts, so Loco is stomping normal games right now on NA with his team.
But Woong has like 8 NA accounts.
Did he forget the passwords? Lol.
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United States37500 Posts
On September 13 2013 05:16 Chrispy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:51 NeoIllusions wrote:
Funny how they don't have level 30 accounts, so Loco is stomping normal games right now on NA with his team. But Woong has like 8 NA accounts. Did he forget the passwords? Lol.
He transferred a large chunk of them to the KR server when it opened two years ago and likely gave a number of them to friends. Riotplz
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One thing I found interesting browsing lolking on Woong's account is that pretty much all of their matches end at 25 minutes long except when they were playing on Howling Abyss.
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Man they seem to have like no idea how much dmg Tibbers does or the range or something. Twice now I saw them get caught by it with easy escapes available.
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On September 13 2013 04:05 UmberBane wrote:
So my take on all of this is simple:
If top NA teams would get their asses kicked by several low (possibly non Champions level) tier KR teams, it would be sad, but also quite unlikely in my opinion. They have all the tools to step it up if Koreans come to NA to play and practice. In SC2 foreigners are fucked because many of them don't nearly have the infrastructure that LCS teams have nowadays. The difference to SC2 is that the really good teams (at least top 16) will want to stay in Korea no matter what in the future, because the money/exposure/fans/everything you can get there is better than in the West. In SC2 this isn't the case anymore, because the Korean SC2 audience is very small, while the foreign SC2 audience is big in comparison.
If more Koreans were to decide to come to NA to play there, it would only be bottom tier pro teams. And if NA can't handle them, I don't know what to tell you. LCS teams have the best chances out of any foreigner scene to step it up and compete with the Koreans and I believe because of that they will at least be able to fend off a low tier Korean "invasion". Ultimately this might be the kick in the ass that NA needs to get more competitive as a whole. Teams like C9 already show promise of how new talent can be fostered and kick complete ass, and I'm sure there are more teams like C9 that will evolve from the NA talent pool over time, especially if the region gets more competitive overall.
EU>NA still, you remove the aberration that is Cloud 9 and its not even close :|
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Quantic playing tomorrow in the ggLA challenger tournament, guess they do have 30s
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EPT
