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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On September 11 2013 23:43 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 22:44 Fildun wrote:On September 11 2013 22:25 Shikyo wrote:
In this mass assassin meta, I wonder why Fiora is never played.
Just the last game the enemy Caitlyn gets incredibly fed(260 minions at 22min) and I could play the entire early/midgame with absolutely no worries because I knew that she wouldn't be an issue. Come teamfights, I just ghosted in and always attacked her right away and the farm and 4 items at 25min didn't matter at all. I feel like Fiora does the job of removing a single target better than even champions like Zed. Oh and in a 1v1 engage with equal amounts of farm Fiora completely obliterates Zed. She has slight issues with tanky champions but tends to win 1v1s against them anyway due to BotRK and insane attack speed steroids. The only situation in which she feels bad is when the enemy team is full of tanky champions with something like Urgot as the ADC and your entire team is squishy and purely AD, but that's not her fault. Don't you have issues of getting blown up immediately before or straight after ulting? That's usually my strategy, just throw a malph/sej/leo ult on her and she's done. You wait for them to engage on your overextending noob teammate and then explode their whole team with a tiamat ult But you have a general strategy vs Fiora? I haven't seen her in the enemy team in around 300 games Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 22:57 ItsFunToLose wrote:
The problem with fiora is that outside of damage, she brings literally nothing else to the table. She is REQUIRED to spend all of her gold on damage, and on top of that, 8k deep into a build, she STILL does less damage than zac or elise who built pure tank. She's just not very good. i guess that's more zac/elise being OP. anyone who can build tanky items and do more damage than fiora is bullshit in terms of design. That's absolutely incorrect, she outdamages them by a gigantic margin. For example in one game I was in the brush and Tristana walked in, I auto QEQ autod her before she jump-ulted me away and she lost around 80% of her hp
Anyone can do tons of damage if someone facechecks a bush...
Shikyo plz.
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My thoughts on Fiora are as such:
She has great amounts of damage in a 1v1 scenario, with her ultimate, so she excels as a duelist (which was the initial design for her, gj Riot). Being a good duelist her best position is to be split pushing and hampering the enemy team's movements around the map by forcing their top laner to either be top trying to save towers vs her or abandon their top tower(s) to try and make it up with objective fights elsewhere. The dependency of split pushers is to either a) shove fast and with high mobility get to team fights to assist in fights, or b) be fed/scary enough to be stronger than whatever champ they send against you alone. Since Fiora's lackluster contributing effort to team fights (provides nothing but damage, and vs high cc comps can get push out of a fight or straight up die while being cced) she is far better at being stronger than the one person they send top.
You might see the problem here, is that you Fiora must be fed enough to put adequate pressure on the map, and playing with the mindset that she must win lane means that if they do end up stopping her, her best hope is to afk farm her way into the game. You miss out on a lot of Fiora's midgame dominance if you can't crush your lane ot considerably out-cs your opponent. Safe picks like Malphite, Shen, Cho, etc (who can all build tankiness from their first item and scale out of it nicely with great base values/global presence) all ruin Fiora's gameplan.
I think her role as a melee carry is just not as good as bursting assassins, REAL dominant lane bullies, or tanky initiators who make up a lot of top lane.
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Also Master Yi costs way less IP
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tryndamere is still the best ~~
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On September 12 2013 00:41 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 23:43 Shikyo wrote:On September 11 2013 22:44 Fildun wrote:On September 11 2013 22:25 Shikyo wrote:
In this mass assassin meta, I wonder why Fiora is never played.
Just the last game the enemy Caitlyn gets incredibly fed(260 minions at 22min) and I could play the entire early/midgame with absolutely no worries because I knew that she wouldn't be an issue. Come teamfights, I just ghosted in and always attacked her right away and the farm and 4 items at 25min didn't matter at all. I feel like Fiora does the job of removing a single target better than even champions like Zed. Oh and in a 1v1 engage with equal amounts of farm Fiora completely obliterates Zed. She has slight issues with tanky champions but tends to win 1v1s against them anyway due to BotRK and insane attack speed steroids. The only situation in which she feels bad is when the enemy team is full of tanky champions with something like Urgot as the ADC and your entire team is squishy and purely AD, but that's not her fault. Don't you have issues of getting blown up immediately before or straight after ulting? That's usually my strategy, just throw a malph/sej/leo ult on her and she's done. You wait for them to engage on your overextending noob teammate and then explode their whole team with a tiamat ult But you have a general strategy vs Fiora? I haven't seen her in the enemy team in around 300 games On September 11 2013 22:57 ItsFunToLose wrote:
The problem with fiora is that outside of damage, she brings literally nothing else to the table. She is REQUIRED to spend all of her gold on damage, and on top of that, 8k deep into a build, she STILL does less damage than zac or elise who built pure tank. She's just not very good. i guess that's more zac/elise being OP. anyone who can build tanky items and do more damage than fiora is bullshit in terms of design. That's absolutely incorrect, she outdamages them by a gigantic margin. For example in one game I was in the brush and Tristana walked in, I auto QEQ autod her before she jump-ulted me away and she lost around 80% of her hp Anyone can do tons of damage if someone facechecks a bush... Shikyo plz.
4 hits o_O It's just an example.
Well this game the enemy team caught me with double stun and when I was at 10hp my ult finally went off(with ravenous hydra), after it ended I used ravenous hydra active, BotRK, ignite, Q, and autod about once and the whole enemy team was really low, my team arrived and killed them all, and we won the game.
There's other instances as well but comparing her damage to full tank Elise or Zac is ridiculous. I think that Master Yi is the only one who compares and still I'm not sure about that after the nerfs due to how insane her ult is.
The thing about her is that she's pure sustained damage and she can keep up her 120% attack speed and 45% movespeed buff throughout almost the entire teamfight unless she dies, which definitely can happen but generally she's able to deal her damage anyway. So Zed is like this: Runs in, explodes your carry without you being able to do anything, doesn't do much afterwards. Fiora is like this: Runs in, explodes your carry without you being able to do anything, destroys your entire team with all the resets she gets.
About her bringing nothing to the team: Would you rather have your enemy stunned or your enemy dead?
By the way, dodging every time someone seems like a troll or if you don't get the champion you want seems like an awesome idea. I've dodged a ton of games recently and hence I get like +30 LP per win and lose like 10 per loss because of how dodging affects your LP but not your MMR.
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I really don't understand why Fiora would ever go top over mid.
She is very vulnerable to ganks and better at bursting squishy targets, and mid lane is in general harder to gank and the champions that go mid are in general squishier.
I'm not going to comment on the viability of Fiora (I think she's crap), but if you were going to play Fiora, why would you not take her mid?
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Fiora has some cool stuff about her, but there are just some changes that could make her so much stronger, without damaging her gameplay.
First, her ulti. She should just be straight up untargetable. It's weird that her ulti is suppose to work similarly to Yi's alpha strike, yet she still takes AoE damage. Also it was a bit silly how her ulti got dropped if someone went invisible (just got fixed in recent patch).
Her movespeed buff from Burst of Speed is pretty underwhelming, mostly because it's conditional to her hitting a target. Though, obviously this should be pretty easy to activate in conjunction with her lunge. However, it does sort of limit her engages to her Q cooldown, would be pretty cool if Burst of Speed opened up with 1 stack of MS buff, and added on top of that, rather than have the condition of hitting to start it off.
Her passive sort of blows too, just from a design perspective, just seems so off from the rest of her kit.
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On September 12 2013 00:54 Ketara wrote:
I really don't understand why Fiora would ever go top over mid.
She is very vulnerable to ganks and better at bursting squishy targets, and mid lane is in general harder to gank and the champions that go mid are in general squishier.
I'm not going to comment on the viability of Fiora (I think she's crap), but if you were going to play Fiora, why would you not take her mid?
I would love to try to make her work mid because I love her, but I'm so trash at assassins that making a semi-unviable assassin work would be difficult.
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Baa?21243 Posts
She's good mid against all the shitty mids that no one plays anymore, but that's hardly unique to her.
But hey lots of peopel still play shit mids so Fiora away, (traditional) mid lane champs blowwwwwwwww even shit tier champs like Fiora can stomp.
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It's soloq you can pick anything and win your lane that doesn't really mean much.
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What are the shitty mids nobody plays anymore?
And yeah, that's basically what I think about Fiora mid. She's another one of those mid lane Assassins who isn't Zed.
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In addition to having pretty mediocre good matchups, Fiora is also so hard countered by Jax that she is forced to be your last pick. Jax outduels her, is harder to gank, and is way better in teamfights. Not sure there are any greater counters in the game.
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According to wicked and westrice Fiora is too hit or miss and it is why she's not played too much.
Her toplane is apparently very binary, either she hardcounters the opponent, or she get hardcountered by the opponent. Not alot of middle ground. the skirmish damage and 1v1 is ridiculous burst
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Baa?21243 Posts
On September 12 2013 01:01 Ketara wrote:
What are the shitty mids nobody plays anymore?
And yeah, that's basically what I think about Fiora mid. She's another one of those mid lane Assassins who isn't Zed.
old apcs who had a million mana costs and relied on huge ass cds with no gap closer engage/disengage who just all suck now
brand malz for example, who used to be huge and now are basically gone
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On September 12 2013 01:07 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 01:01 Ketara wrote:
What are the shitty mids nobody plays anymore?
And yeah, that's basically what I think about Fiora mid. She's another one of those mid lane Assassins who isn't Zed. old apcs who had a million mana costs and relied on huge ass cds with no gap closer engage/disengage who just all suck now brand malz for example, who used to be huge and now are basically gone
dat power creep centered around mana costs
Seriously, the mana costs becoming cheaper on a lot of newer heros is the biggest power creep in league
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On September 12 2013 01:01 Ketara wrote:
What are the shitty mids nobody plays anymore?
And yeah, that's basically what I think about Fiora mid. She's another one of those mid lane Assassins who isn't Zed.
She's also not Ahri.
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I play Fiora every day in the TL inhouses. Definitely prefer her Mid.
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5vQ2tjQ.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/riSV2Ln.png) My CS sucks. So much roaming.
Just think AD Fizz with no escape and better teamfighting. She is not a Melee AD Carry, her steroid only lasts for 3 damn seconds.
Napkin math puts her 1v1 damage above Zed's, both base and ratio's. 3 stacks of E lets her outrun Bear Udyr lol.
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On September 12 2013 01:07 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 01:01 Ketara wrote:
What are the shitty mids nobody plays anymore?
And yeah, that's basically what I think about Fiora mid. She's another one of those mid lane Assassins who isn't Zed. old apcs who had a million mana costs and relied on huge ass cds with no gap closer engage/disengage who just all suck now brand malz for example, who used to be huge and now are basically gone
Brand and Malz also do a fuckton of damage. Malzahar would crush Fiora
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United States47024 Posts
On September 11 2013 13:45 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 13:35 Sufficiency wrote:On September 11 2013 11:31 LoCicero wrote:
This game really frustrates me at times. I feel like you really are just putting yourself at a disadvantage by not playing the current FOTM champs for solo queue. An "OP" Solo queue champ pretty much means you have to play someone who just has no real counter... like ahri. At 6 she's unkillable because you can just be completely out of position and press R. Or zac. Or elise (press Rappelle and then press on any enemy minion or monster to blink while also being invincible! Oh also the range is absurd). Just all these ridiculous moves with no "counterplay". "Counterplay should not be "kill them before they can use that move that makes them invincible and jump over a wall"
I want to play people like Morg... I really want to. But I completely rely on my team's ability to take advantage of me setting up teamfights and kills. If they get kills they can still throw the game because solo queue.
Everyone nowadays is incredibly mobile for free and it REALLY makes me dislike this game. And the only way to beat that is to have people that are just absurd at locking people down AND get high mobility (jarvan... elise... vi... pretty much any jungler that is in the meta right now)
Maybe this should go in the Shikyo thread, I don't know, but the current balance of this game really tears at me.
You do understand they are FOTM precisely because they are effective at winning? You know what Suf, I'm sure that escaped him altogether. He would never think of such a complex thought. I actually LIKE the power creep of the game, maybe I'm alone in liking it however. I like highly mobile champs, or champs with insane lockdown or damage, I HATED s2 personally, especially with junglers donating almost all of their jungle so Anivia could eventually one shot the other team's adc. It was so stagnant and slow I wanted to gouge my eyes out. With OP champs and 1v2 lanes speeding the game up it rarely feels stale. I had a game that the laning phase lasted 20 minutes and it felt like it would never end (nobody took any towers at all), and it reminded me of s2 play.
I'm personally OK with power creep in certain ways. "Mobility creep" as they keep bringing it up doesn't bother me, though I think some more mobility options on the item end could actually help a few of the older champs (the main thing that's absolutely crippling for champs with MS-based gap closers like Udyr is that speed boosts are % of base MS, while slows are % of total).
Mana cost creep bothers me a lot more, as Shaella brought up.
EDIT: Also, I think Riot should think about revising the Movespeed diminishing returns breakpoints. DR at 415 MS only punishes someone like Udyr who badly needs that MS to engage.
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I hate mana cost creep.
Part of why anivia is unviable, they nerfed blue buff so that other mids could go oom IF they spammed skills nonstop.
Anivia ooms until rank 2 ultimate just clearing waves with blue buff.
Seriously though, max Q costs 160 mana, W 150, E 90 and R 75+60 per second.
For the cost of a Q and an E, some mids can get off a full rotation.
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EPT
