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[Patch 3.11] General Discussion - Page 24

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Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21244 Posts
September 05 2013 15:23 GMT
#461
On September 06 2013 00:17 Don_Julio wrote:
Krepo


wasn't impressed the one time i heard him cast

he ddint have the "holys hit pro insight" that i got from hearing, say, f91 cast bw or even when locodoco casted ogn.

plus f91 and loco were both super trolly which made it better
TranslatorBaa!
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-05 15:24:47
September 05 2013 15:24 GMT
#462
On September 06 2013 00:14 Nos- wrote:
I kind of want the equivalent of Idra casting League, that'd be cool. Just dry analysis and information

You more or less have to wait for a wave of LoL pros to retire and hope a few of them go into casting. Jatt was the lone one from the first generation and he went directly to Riot.

That said, I think Jatt is the LCS caster that says the least fluff, for good reason.

Edit: TIL Cheep just wants to be entertained. Surprise.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Kyrie
Profile Joined June 2013
1594 Posts
September 05 2013 15:25 GMT
#463
with regards to criticism of montecristo's casting, he's repeatedly pointed out that champion-specific knowledge such as lane matchups is an area in which he doesn't have much expertise. his selling point is his understanding of game flow and compositions, and those who say he is inferior in this as well might be able to gather a pretty big following writing up or casting their own knowledge, because at the moment he's among the best at what he does. while i wish that his skills were more well rounded, i do appreciate that he avoids the trap of acting like he knows what he's talking about, and i personally don't find in depth matchup analysis particularly valuable in single-observer games where the camera doesn't stay on a single lane for long

at the end of the day, the self styled 'super hardcore' audience is pretty much impossible to please (partly because of the difficulty of finding casters knowledgeable enough to cater to them and partly because of their desire to criticize and feel smarter than everyone else), is less important to riot than the huge casual viewer base, and is just going to have to wait until the day replays of pro games are made available
nanospartan
Profile Joined July 2011
649 Posts
September 05 2013 15:25 GMT
#464
On September 05 2013 23:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2013 23:39 nanospartan wrote:
How's the state of Jayce right now? is the consensus to still rush muramana?


Idk, but if his Aetherling resolves, you have ~2 turns to hit your win con...

Serious face though, I haven't seen a Jayce in the few days I've been back. Not really complaining about it. Did he get a round of nerfs?

Personally I find that if you don't have a counter or eleven kill spells on hand vs aetherling, its over... also without stoneforge jayce suffers pretty badly :D

I was just wondering if it could be worth it now to max w over e due to the lack of cdr on the gate, is the extra 12% dmg really that nuts in comparison to waveclear/steriod?
I was an athiest until I watched the Day[9] daily
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
September 05 2013 15:25 GMT
#465
He's also a really good translator for Riv. I actually don't mind Riv at all when he embraces the gibberish. He's pretty exciting and doesn't really try analysis which is good. Rather no analysis than terrible analysis.
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21244 Posts
September 05 2013 15:26 GMT
#466
On September 06 2013 00:24 NeoIllusions wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2013 00:14 Nos- wrote:
I kind of want the equivalent of Idra casting League, that'd be cool. Just dry analysis and information

You more or less have to wait for a wave of LoL pros to retire and hope a few of them go into casting. Jatt was the lone one from the first generation and he went directly to Riot.

That said, I think Jatt is the LCS caster that says the least fluff, for good reason.

Edit: TIL Cheep just wants to be entertained. Surprise.


you watch games to be entertained, not to learn, and i think thats a misconception a lot of people have

you're not gonna become 3k elo challenger tier by watching streams for 8 hours a day and then theorycrafting, but it's unsettling how many people believe that to some extent...
TranslatorBaa!
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-05 15:28:05
September 05 2013 15:26 GMT
#467
Analysis can help a game become more interesting if it is well-informed and points out the furtive stuff you might be too busy to notice yourself, but anyone who's that good at the game isn't gonna spend his time casting. Either way, the most important quality of any caster is to be entertaining, and why waste your time analyzing stuff when you can just watch the game with the rest of the fans, make some silly remarks and then go "HOOHOOHOHHHMYGOOOD REGIIIIII!!!!!" and be just as entertaining?

I barely remember the races played in the Combat-Ex / Chill grudgematch but I do remember the bear semen. I don't remember who ended Savior in the Gom Invitational, but I do remember Tasteless screaming like a madman before going right back to talking about his DBZ hair and how badly he needed to go to the bathroom.

also: PLAGUUUUUUUUUUU!
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21244 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-05 15:29:34
September 05 2013 15:28 GMT
#468
On September 06 2013 00:26 Osmoses wrote:
Analysis can help a game become more interesting if it is well-informed and points out the furtive stuff you might be too busy to notice yourself, but anyone who's that good at the game isn't gonna spend his time casting. Either way, the most important quality of any caster is to be entertaining, and why waste your time analyzing stuff when you can just watch the game with the rest of the fans, make some silly remarks and then go "HOOHOOHOHHHMYGOOOD REGIIIIII!!!!!" and be just as entertaining?

I barely remember the races played in the Combat-Ex / Chill grudgematch but I do remember the bear semen. I don't remember who ended Savior in the Gom Invitational, but I do remember Tasteless screaming like a madman before going right back to talking about his DBZ hair and how badly he needed to go to the bathroom.


i think there's a lot of value in doing good analysis well, and that will be entertaining to a lot of people (myself includeD), but it's difficult to do it well, and i'd rather they dont do it at all instead of doing it half assedly/poorly and failing which is basically what we have now.

so until they can do it well i'd rather just watch TSM TSM REGINALD AGGRESSIVE PLAY STYLE TSMMMMMMMMMMMM style casting

edit: also yes. PLAGUUUUUUUUUUUUU.

korean casting perfected blending stuff like PLAGUUUUU with good high level analysis, but we can't even get one of the two right in league right now, so a marriage of the two is probably a bit too ambitious and is too much to ask for right now unfortunately ~_~
TranslatorBaa!
Nos-
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada12016 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-05 15:32:06
September 05 2013 15:30 GMT
#469
Isn't MtG version spelled Jace?

Also are the Korean OGN casters a big step above what we have in NA? I think Kkoma casted a few times and he is the head coach of SKT so that should be something
Bronze player stuck in platinum
lefty
Profile Joined November 2003
United States1896 Posts
September 05 2013 15:30 GMT
#470
The "Riot is catering to casuals" schtick gets old very quick. Korean OGN or even nicegameTV caters to casuals just as much, but they never question the audiences intelligence, which I can't say for Riot approach to commentating and "analysis". They seem to be more focused on getting champion skill names correctly than explaining the thought process actual plays. Just overall commentating in the western LoL scene leaves much to be desired. I dont think Monte is best at analyzing but he is better than most riot ones because he actually criticizes or questions plays, while riot ones would pretend everything is swell when one team is running off with a 2-3k gold difference at 10 minutes.
Haiq343
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2548 Posts
September 05 2013 15:36 GMT
#471
On September 06 2013 00:07 OhTwoMise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2013 23:57 jcarlsoniv wrote:
To those who are complaining about casters, I know it's been said before, but go ahead and try your hand at casting.

And yes, I know it is these people's jobs to cast, but you have to remember that they are catering to the majority audience of LoL players. It's literally impossible to please everyone in casting, so you have to cut your losses. Unfortunately, most of us are the minority in our preferences to casters, and those who really don't care just mute.


I guess this is my problem. I don't think they are. Do the majority of LoL players really need a definition of Zhonya's every time one gets bought? Can they really not tell that someone is farming the jungle? I understand that there are multiple levels of understanding in the game, but I really think you need to draw the line somewhere, and that needs to be well north of describing what is happening on the screen when there is only one champion there unless it has some specific strategic significance (IE, clearing a ward hotspot).

For what it's worth, I actually think most of the LCS casters are perfectly serviceable outside of this area. Even though the vast majority of the play-by-play AND analysis are things I could glean myself, it allows me to do things while sort of casually observing instead of focusing 100% on the game.

Edit:
I wonder what the actual demographic on the average observer is. I would guess at least Silver.

Edit2:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2013 00:08 upperbound wrote:
As long as you don't actually rely on them for significant game analysis....


Forgot I wanted to bring this up. Any level of analysis is actually fine (it's basically filler unless you have current pros in the booth), but it has to be correct. This is my issue with Kaplan. He's wrong at least as much as he's right.

Just to address this specifically. I would bet that Riot is doing that intentionally to make the casting more approachable for new/uniformed players. (Dota is regularly described as incomprehensible to new viewers in part because the casters skip the obvious). I'd also anticipate that most of the LCS's viewers are ~bronze just due to sheer volume of player distribution. Casting style is a preference, and as a mostly analytical crowd with RTS ties TLoL is going to be interested in something very different than a more casual fan.

I vote Neo and Wave cast worlds for us.
I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination encircles the world. -Einstein
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-05 15:47:22
September 05 2013 15:44 GMT
#472
Cheep just mad because Monte Cristo thinks Ziggs is the worst champion in league. (I'm not sure why either)

I don't think I'd say he's "bad" but he does have a couple of re-occuring comments that really bother me. On the flip side I was really tired of people talking about the "tons of damage" Orianna was doing and Monte finally came out and said her damage is ok but it's not what she does.

So there is some good with the bad, unlike EU lcs when they don't have a clue without their player special guests.

I do agree with Cheep though that when Locodoco brought up the pink ward lane swap thing it was one of the only things I've heard in a cast in the last 6 months where I was like, damn I didn't know that but it's so obvious now.
Carrilord has arrived.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
September 05 2013 15:48 GMT
#473
On September 06 2013 00:36 Haiq343 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2013 00:07 OhTwoMise wrote:
On September 05 2013 23:57 jcarlsoniv wrote:
To those who are complaining about casters, I know it's been said before, but go ahead and try your hand at casting.

And yes, I know it is these people's jobs to cast, but you have to remember that they are catering to the majority audience of LoL players. It's literally impossible to please everyone in casting, so you have to cut your losses. Unfortunately, most of us are the minority in our preferences to casters, and those who really don't care just mute.


I guess this is my problem. I don't think they are. Do the majority of LoL players really need a definition of Zhonya's every time one gets bought? Can they really not tell that someone is farming the jungle? I understand that there are multiple levels of understanding in the game, but I really think you need to draw the line somewhere, and that needs to be well north of describing what is happening on the screen when there is only one champion there unless it has some specific strategic significance (IE, clearing a ward hotspot).

For what it's worth, I actually think most of the LCS casters are perfectly serviceable outside of this area. Even though the vast majority of the play-by-play AND analysis are things I could glean myself, it allows me to do things while sort of casually observing instead of focusing 100% on the game.

Edit:
I wonder what the actual demographic on the average observer is. I would guess at least Silver.

Edit2:
On September 06 2013 00:08 upperbound wrote:
As long as you don't actually rely on them for significant game analysis....


Forgot I wanted to bring this up. Any level of analysis is actually fine (it's basically filler unless you have current pros in the booth), but it has to be correct. This is my issue with Kaplan. He's wrong at least as much as he's right.

Just to address this specifically. I would bet that Riot is doing that intentionally to make the casting more approachable for new/uniformed players. (Dota is regularly described as incomprehensible to new viewers in part because the casters skip the obvious). I'd also anticipate that most of the LCS's viewers are ~bronze just due to sheer volume of player distribution. Casting style is a preference, and as a mostly analytical crowd with RTS ties TLoL is going to be interested in something very different than a more casual fan.

I vote Neo and Wave cast worlds for us.

You bring up a good point about doto. During TI3, casters totally skipped on all the beginner nuances and I read feedback on twitter and other outlets (by esports figures that don't watch doto regularly and TI is their once a year stop) about how it was difficult it was to follow what the TI casters were saying.

You have the exact opposite being said here about League and how our casters dumb down anything. Again, it goes back to the audience, Riot is pretty much taking the safe approach here. I will agree with the blatant misinformation some of the NA LCS casters do in regards to saying the game is close but there's like a 4K gold advantage by 10-15 min.

As for casting, I can't stream well due to upload but I can piggy back off Wave/Monte during IHs for practice I suppose.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
September 05 2013 15:49 GMT
#474
On September 06 2013 00:30 lefty wrote:
The "Riot is catering to casuals" schtick gets old very quick. Korean OGN or even nicegameTV caters to casuals just as much, but they never question the audiences intelligence, which I can't say for Riot approach to commentating and "analysis". They seem to be more focused on getting champion skill names correctly than explaining the thought process actual plays. Just overall commentating in the western LoL scene leaves much to be desired. I dont think Monte is best at analyzing but he is better than most riot ones because he actually criticizes or questions plays, while riot ones would pretend everything is swell when one team is running off with a 2-3k gold difference at 10 minutes.


That's more of a culture thing, I think.

It's a hard balance to be critical but constructive. A lot of NA players (this is a VERY rash generalization) are not receptive to criticism, and would potentially be unhappy with a lot of criticism when the casters are analyzing. But yes, I personally would prefer casters to be more critical in LCS and such.

OGN and nicegameTV cater to (mostly) different demographics as far as I know. Think about how critical asian countries are of their youth - pressing for only the best. American culture is far more lackadaisical in that regard.

This isn't the ONLY factor, but I certainly think it contributes a non-negligible amount.
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21244 Posts
September 05 2013 15:55 GMT
#475
On September 06 2013 00:44 Slusher wrote:
Cheep just mad because Monte Cristo thinks Ziggs is the worst champion in league. (I'm not sure why either)

I.


i didn't even know he thought that is this true?

monte confirmed silver elo
TranslatorBaa!
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
September 05 2013 15:59 GMT
#476
he's pretty outspoken about it, it's hard to miss.
Carrilord has arrived.
Frost
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1042 Posts
September 05 2013 16:04 GMT
#477
On September 06 2013 00:59 Slusher wrote:
he's pretty outspoken about it, it's hard to miss.


I thought Teemo was the worst champion in League.
OhTwoMise
Profile Joined September 2012
United States164 Posts
September 05 2013 16:04 GMT
#478
On September 06 2013 00:49 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2013 00:30 lefty wrote:
The "Riot is catering to casuals" schtick gets old very quick. Korean OGN or even nicegameTV caters to casuals just as much, but they never question the audiences intelligence, which I can't say for Riot approach to commentating and "analysis". They seem to be more focused on getting champion skill names correctly than explaining the thought process actual plays. Just overall commentating in the western LoL scene leaves much to be desired. I dont think Monte is best at analyzing but he is better than most riot ones because he actually criticizes or questions plays, while riot ones would pretend everything is swell when one team is running off with a 2-3k gold difference at 10 minutes.


That's more of a culture thing, I think.

It's a hard balance to be critical but constructive. A lot of NA players (this is a VERY rash generalization) are not receptive to criticism, and would potentially be unhappy with a lot of criticism when the casters are analyzing. But yes, I personally would prefer casters to be more critical in LCS and such.

OGN and nicegameTV cater to (mostly) different demographics as far as I know. Think about how critical asian countries are of their youth - pressing for only the best. American culture is far more lackadaisical in that regard.

This isn't the ONLY factor, but I certainly think it contributes a non-negligible amount.


I would have thought their target demographic at least for the English cast is roughly the same as LCS? Maybe it's much higher level, though, as you need to either pay or be awake at some pretty wacky hours for OGN.
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21244 Posts
September 05 2013 16:06 GMT
#479
On September 06 2013 00:59 Slusher wrote:
he's pretty outspoken about it, it's hard to miss.


weird, never came across it

monte shit tier
TranslatorBaa!
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
September 05 2013 16:17 GMT
#480
I can think of a half-dozen champions off the top of my head that are far and away worse than Ziggs, unquestionably so.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
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