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Hm. Maybe I should get another page with AD quints instead of MS to go with the hybrid pen marks, when playing Lulu. She harasses pretty hard with Pix, and her Q lets you get in 1-2 easy autos too (and people usually run from me when they eat the slow, instead of retaliating). Maybe I should just take ignite too and try to kill, or at least push out of lane, the enemy AD.
I tend to start Flask+2 wards, but I could prob skimp on it, going 2 greens, 1 pink, 2 mana pots, rest health, and have more regen. It's only stronger before my first back since flask pays so fast for itself just with the mana regen.
I'm pretty lost wrt the top lane, though. I'm not a big fan of starting bead+5 pots+ward, despite knowing how little it'd cost me to sell it later (before Locket change I sometimes did it, finished my first major item then Locket rather than Randuin's, the curve is super smooth and you get an earlier timing where you're actually pretty strong in fights and dives, being a solo laner with Locket and all).
I sometimes go dblade (more on Jax than Irelia) if I think their jungler won't do the level 3 double buff gank (or I know we're stronger if my jungler counterganks) but it's mostly when I plan to all-in to force them back or kill them, and have to back early-ish myself.
Boots feels underwhelming (maybe would work better against stuff like Nidalee or Vlad where you want to reach them and stick easily), esp. as you only get 2 pots if you buy a ward, cloth armour is somewhat close (granted it'd prob be pretty good if I was playing against stuff like Riven more often than Nid, Vlad, Nasus, etc.).
How would dshield+pot be as a standard opener? Does it usually work well, or is it really more niche? Looks like it entices you to trade more early too, since despite the defensive nature of its stats it helps you win early. Prob loses to cloth+5 in a physical match-up because of sustain, though, and can't go too aggressive because you lack the damage from, say, a dblade, and you don't have a ward either.
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On September 06 2013 01:41 Haiq343 wrote:
Heimer and Ziggs both suck because they can't use SV or Trinity.
I wish I was just trolling...
Now I want to build triforce on ziggs
someone get PX in here so he can argue it's a good idea
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On September 06 2013 01:25 TheYango wrote:
Heimerdinger might actually be a "better" champ than Ziggs because while he could be considered worse in a vacuum, he has a more defined niche that he excels in over other champs (it's just that niche is very rarely one you want/have to draft for) while with Ziggs it's hard to say that he's necessarily got good niche more than just being mediocre at things other champs are good at.
i agree with the underlying idea, but the specific case?
ziggs is far from a well rounded/medicore at many things champ
he's squishy no reliable escape and mediocre cc, but he makes up for it with top notch poke and aoe dmg and zone control
so he is like the opposite of what you're describing...
On September 06 2013 01:56 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 01:41 Haiq343 wrote:
Heimer and Ziggs both suck because they can't use SV or Trinity.
I wish I was just trolling... Now I want to build triforce on ziggs someone get PX in here so he can argue it's a good idea
i've done it before
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I don't know about Master of nothing, he's incredibly good at siege he has super long range AoE poke on a short cd and can get adjacent lanes pushing in a favorable direction without abandoning the siege as well as good zone control, like if you put the E bombs on the ground in the gap on one side when going high ground your adc can auto from that side basically for free.
his wave clear if your team wants to run 3-1-1 is without a doubt good enough
I honestly think he's pretty under rated, he's not even that bad vs Zed which I'm sure was going to be the next comment.
(cheeps post came out while I was typing sorry for repeating a lot of it)
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On September 06 2013 01:55 Alaric wrote:
Hm. Maybe I should get another page with AD quints instead of MS to go with the hybrid pen marks, when playing Lulu. She harasses pretty hard with Pix, and her Q lets you get in 1-2 easy autos too (and people usually run from me when they eat the slow, instead of retaliating). Maybe I should just take ignite too and try to kill, or at least push out of lane, the enemy AD.
I tend to start Flask+2 wards, but I could prob skimp on it, going 2 greens, 1 pink, 2 mana pots, rest health, and have more regen. It's only stronger before my first back since flask pays so fast for itself just with the mana regen.
I'm pretty lost wrt the top lane, though. I'm not a big fan of starting bead+5 pots+ward, despite knowing how little it'd cost me to sell it later (before Locket change I sometimes did it, finished my first major item then Locket rather than Randuin's, the curve is super smooth and you get an earlier timing where you're actually pretty strong in fights and dives, being a solo laner with Locket and all).
I sometimes go dblade (more on Jax than Irelia) if I think their jungler won't do the level 3 double buff gank (or I know we're stronger if my jungler counterganks) but it's mostly when I plan to all-in to force them back or kill them, and have to back early-ish myself.
Boots feels underwhelming (maybe would work better against stuff like Nidalee or Vlad where you want to reach them and stick easily), esp. as you only get 2 pots if you buy a ward, cloth armour is somewhat close (granted it'd prob be pretty good if I was playing against stuff like Riven more often than Nid, Vlad, Nasus, etc.).
How would dshield+pot be as a standard opener? Does it usually work well, or is it really more niche? Looks like it entices you to trade more early too, since despite the defensive nature of its stats it helps you win early. Prob loses to cloth+5 in a physical match-up because of sustain, though, and can't go too aggressive because you lack the damage from, say, a dblade, and you don't have a ward either.
Shield + Pot is stronger then blade on anything that doesn't involve you hitting them a lot without them hitting you back. So as a melee, i'd basically always got shield + pot over blade. Still leaves you with the problem of not having a ward in toplane, which means you need a good plan to deal with the lvl 3 gank. If you can rely on your jungler counterganking, you can do it, but otherwise it can become really problematic since it means that either you have to allow the enemy to push you back and gain 2 first, or you are very vulnerable to that gank/getting zoned out by the possibility of it happening. You usually can't push into tower before 3 min, and getting pushed back can be devastating in any 2v2 or 1v1 situation. If you have some innate sustain like for example renekton, i'd say that shield + pot is stronger then cloth +5 in most situations.
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I know I've said this before but I wish LoL had a menu like in UMvC3 where you can choose the language of the voice acting by character. I'm pretty sure downloading the NA client downloads all of the language packs anyway, and I just love the voice acting for Korean Elise, the laugh on W cast is my favorite.
Watching OGN from last night I'd probly have to swap to Korean Vi as well.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 06 2013 01:59 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
he's squishy no reliable escape and mediocre cc, but he makes up for it with top notch poke and aoe dmg and zone control
That's what I mean, there are a lot of APs that fit that lol.
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On September 06 2013 02:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 01:59 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
he's squishy no reliable escape and mediocre cc, but he makes up for it with top notch poke and aoe dmg and zone control
That's what I mean, there are a lot of APs that fit that lol.
ziggs is top 3 poke/defend/siege with semi global pressure...
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On September 06 2013 02:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 01:59 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
he's squishy no reliable escape and mediocre cc, but he makes up for it with top notch poke and aoe dmg and zone control
That's what I mean, there are a lot of APs that fit that lol.
I dont know what is so hard with the W on Ziggs i escape pretty much all the time. And with the latest buff you cant really miss it.
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On September 06 2013 01:59 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 01:25 TheYango wrote:
Heimerdinger might actually be a "better" champ than Ziggs because while he could be considered worse in a vacuum, he has a more defined niche that he excels in over other champs (it's just that niche is very rarely one you want/have to draft for) while with Ziggs it's hard to say that he's necessarily got good niche more than just being mediocre at things other champs are good at. i agree with the underlying idea, but the specific case?
Heimerdinger is basically a must-pick for the super early inhibitor push cheese comp. He's not so good in pretty much every other situation lol
About Ziggs, the problem is that he's just not that good at anything. His poke is okay, but if you want poke there's Nid, Lux, Xerath, Jayce - there's a ton of champions that are much stronger than him at poking. The bouncing mechanic, while cool, just makes it kinda unreliable. Additionally, last time I played Ziggs, I had serious mana problems even with blue. With the newfound popularity/strength of Tear, it might not be as bad though. Ziggs' W and E are basically utility spells since their damage isn't amazing. At the same time, if you want a utility mage with strong zone control there's Oriana, Anivia, Zyra, Morg (though the latter two rarely seen in competitive nowadays). Zigg's ult is ideally a long range nuke, but the problem is that the damage drop-off when the enemy isn't in the center of the blast is pretty huge. On top of that, if you want global or long-range nukes you have Ez Lux and Karthus. Ziggs just doesn't really excel at anything and is mediocre at many things.
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On September 06 2013 02:20 ExoFun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 02:16 TheYango wrote:On September 06 2013 01:59 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
he's squishy no reliable escape and mediocre cc, but he makes up for it with top notch poke and aoe dmg and zone control
That's what I mean, there are a lot of APs that fit that lol. I dont know what is so hard with the W on Ziggs i escape pretty much all the time. And with the latest buff you cant really miss it.
It has a delay which means sometimes you can't count on it as a true blink/escape when shit's going down, its like tristana jump but with even longer setup cause you ahve to throw it on the ground first @@
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On September 05 2013 22:50 OhTwoMise wrote:
But I actually came here to talk about casting, which I've been thinking about a lot lately. A few things to add to the discussion several pages ago:
Riv3 gets way too much shit. He pretty much does what he needs to do. He's okay at play-by-play. He occasionally makes some amusing noises, and he usually gives enough space for his analysis guy to talk. He actually reminds me a lot of John Madden. Give him a marker.
I thought Pat Summerall did the play by play? Madden did the analysis.
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On September 06 2013 02:25 Ryuu314 wrote:
About Ziggs, the problem is that he's just not that good at anything. His poke is okay, but if you want poke there's Nid, Lux, Xerath, Jayce - there's a ton of champions that are much stronger than him at poking.
false, ziggs outdmgs lux by far and aoe > nid, he has more dmg than xerath and jayce got nerfed and hsi q is lower cd than all of them
hte bouncing mechanic, while cool, just makes it kinda unreliable.
it acutally lets him do a lot of cool things
Additionally, last time I played Ziggs, I had serious mana problems even with blue.
you're bad stop qwering off cd
With the newfound popularity/strength of Tear, it might not be as bad though.
tear is actually awful on ziggs
Ziggs' W and E are basically utility spells since their damage isn't amazing.
e is good dmg
At the same time, if you want a utility mage with strong zone control there's Oriana, Anivia, Zyra, Morg (though the latter two rarely seen in competitive nowadays).
ziggs outdmgs all of them
Zigg's ult is ideally a long range nuke, but the problem is that the damage drop-off when the enemy isn't in the center of the blast is pretty huge.
not rly
On top of that, if you want global or long-range nukes you have Lux and Karthus.
ziggs outrranged lux
Ziggs just doesn't really excel at anything and is mediocre at many things.
nope
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also it hink the reason so many people think ziggs is [bad at X] or [not good enough at Y] is cause people build shitty items like chalice and tear first so they think he does no dmg, and they do it cause they're used to op shit where you can qwer off cd and not worry about mana
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lol at comparing 15 sec cd gate shock blast to Ziggs Q
oh and I forgot to mention his passive which works on turrets when talking about his siege ability.
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On September 06 2013 02:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 02:20 ExoFun wrote:On September 06 2013 02:16 TheYango wrote:On September 06 2013 01:59 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
he's squishy no reliable escape and mediocre cc, but he makes up for it with top notch poke and aoe dmg and zone control
That's what I mean, there are a lot of APs that fit that lol. I dont know what is so hard with the W on Ziggs i escape pretty much all the time. And with the latest buff you cant really miss it. It has a delay which means sometimes you can't count on it as a true blink/escape when shit's going down, its like tristana jump but with even longer setup cause you ahve to throw it on the ground first @@
Didn't they change it so now you can press the key again while it's in the air, and it'll detonate as soon as it reaches the ground?
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Well Ziggs is god tier in ARAM. And ARAM is really just one long siege. Seems likely he's god tier in siege comps.
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On September 06 2013 02:38 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2013 02:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On September 06 2013 02:20 ExoFun wrote:On September 06 2013 02:16 TheYango wrote:On September 06 2013 01:59 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
he's squishy no reliable escape and mediocre cc, but he makes up for it with top notch poke and aoe dmg and zone control
That's what I mean, there are a lot of APs that fit that lol. I dont know what is so hard with the W on Ziggs i escape pretty much all the time. And with the latest buff you cant really miss it. It has a delay which means sometimes you can't count on it as a true blink/escape when shit's going down, its like tristana jump but with even longer setup cause you ahve to throw it on the ground first @@ Didn't they change it so now you can press the key again while it's in the air, and it'll detonate as soon as it reaches the ground?
yea you can but it still has travel time to hit the ground
even before the change if you pressed it a second time as it hit it was pretty must instant anyways, so while a nice qol change it didnt really change anything for the majority of the cases
On September 06 2013 02:39 Alzadar wrote:
Well Ziggs is god tier in ARAM. And ARAM is really just one long siege. Seems likely he's god tier in siege comps.
he is ppl are just bad
no one knows how to play with or against a ziggs
and most ziggs players dont know how to play as ziggs
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Phantomlord best ziggs na?
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On September 06 2013 02:29 lilwisper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 22:50 OhTwoMise wrote:
But I actually came here to talk about casting, which I've been thinking about a lot lately. A few things to add to the discussion several pages ago:
Riv3 gets way too much shit. He pretty much does what he needs to do. He's okay at play-by-play. He occasionally makes some amusing noises, and he usually gives enough space for his analysis guy to talk. He actually reminds me a lot of John Madden. Give him a marker.
I thought Pat Summerall did the play by play? Madden did the analysis.
I've never actually watched a Madden cast, but Riv3's speech patterns and (lack of) content remind me a lot of stereotypical Madden.
On September 06 2013 01:26 justiceknight wrote:
whats the best sp for rank?
beads 4 green wards
beads 2 green 1 pink
2 pink 3 green 2 pot
and also give ur reason.
Opening less than 3 health pots is incredibly greedy. Odds are you're getting away with it because most support players have some kind of gentleman's agreement to do so. Or you can just buy pots and force people out of lane. Also, running combat-oriented runes is pretty sweet. Lulu and Zyra in particular (and probably Thresh as well, but I don't really play him) can 1v2 most lanes with something like split pen red/quints, 16/13/1 masteries. Unless the other support is running a similar setup, in which case, you'd damn well better have some pots.
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EPT
