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United States10796 Posts
Every champ is pretty OP in some situations last I checked. Sort of the theory any super fed champ is really strong?
His kit sucks.... Blow up max one person per minute'ish lategame and do nothing for the rest of the time. I'll take Assassins with low c/d's or resets all day and instead blow up anyone anytime they step out of line. Sounds like the better option.
Also with fast tower pushing and roaming being the current way of the world (neither of which he can do well), he will get little time to farm up his Q to infinity, making his kit just feel old and outdated, almost the relic of a different time in League when 300 cs by 30 mins games with 0 roaming were the norm. Sort of like how Jax and Irelia feel top lane, they were the old badasses, now the new kids and items have come and left them as old people sitting on a porch remembering the good times they had when they were kids.
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Baa?21247 Posts
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Baa?21247 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:38 Slayer91 wrote:
well if you agree pickrates arent an issue we should be able to agree that he's pretty op in some situations but he's just not given enough attention
i mean his kit is soo strong
I'm just explaining that his kit is not strong. All these posts come from the perspective of "omg veigar is so strong he's so underpicked" when there's really a perfectly straight forward explanation: his so-called strong late game is not merely as strong as people make it out to be, which was my only point to begin with before it spiraled into this mess.
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On July 11 2013 06:12 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 06:10 wei2coolman wrote:On July 11 2013 06:04 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 06:03 arb wrote:On July 11 2013 06:01 wei2coolman wrote:On July 11 2013 05:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 05:54 wei2coolman wrote:On July 11 2013 05:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 04:31 wei2coolman wrote:On July 11 2013 04:27 sob3k wrote:
[quote]
Veigar is most def not shit lategame. He certainly has to fit your composition, but his stun is one of the most powerful teamfighting skills in the game, and infinite scaling on obscene burst damage is never bad.
1 shotting tanks in a rotation = bad late game; wut am I reading. 5-6 item vieg should be able 1 shot ANY champion. I hate reading posts like this because it's obvious no one here actually plays Veigar and just assumes what Veigar can and cannot do based on...idk it's not even based on bad theorycraft it's just based on nothing besides some vague reputation of "VEIGAR BURST ANYONE WITH INFINITE AP VEIGAR GOOD." By that same logic Sion is a monster late game cause INFINITE HEALTH so you will NEVER DIE amirite?? -___- Because AOE stun; an Ulti that scales off enemy AP; and your own AP. Not to mention AoE nuke with 1.0 AP ratio; is not good scaling? The only reason he's problematic is getting to late game; similar problem with Poppy; Endgame is not his issue; getting there is. If you want to complain about champion; complain about the right things. Yeah I'm not convinced you've played more than 10 games of Veigar. He's essentially an assassin with aoe stun; what's not good about that? Ya It's basically a better amumu ult on a 16sec cd, real underrated ability imo TIL Amumu ult only hits people along the edge of the circle. I hate it whenever Veigar comes up because I've explained pretty much everything there is to explain about Veigar infinite times but no one ever listens and keep regurgitating the same bullshit about infinite scaling when that's like not at all relevant. No one is saying infinite scaling is what makes his late game good though; We're saying he can blow people up cuz his REGULAR scaling is insane. On July 11 2013 06:09 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 06:08 wei2coolman wrote:On July 11 2013 06:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 06:00 Diamond wrote:
What we talking about with Veigar? I love that dude, even own every skin but 1 of his. Was my 2nd champ I played after Annie, played an asston with him. My greatest regret is that I can't get Curling Veigar. On July 11 2013 06:01 wei2coolman wrote:On July 11 2013 05:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 05:54 wei2coolman wrote:On July 11 2013 05:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 04:31 wei2coolman wrote:
[quote]
1 shotting tanks in a rotation = bad late game; wut am I reading. 5-6 item vieg should be able 1 shot ANY champion.
I hate reading posts like this because it's obvious no one here actually plays Veigar and just assumes what Veigar can and cannot do based on...idk it's not even based on bad theorycraft it's just based on nothing besides some vague reputation of "VEIGAR BURST ANYONE WITH INFINITE AP VEIGAR GOOD." By that same logic Sion is a monster late game cause INFINITE HEALTH so you will NEVER DIE amirite?? -___- Because AOE stun; an Ulti that scales off enemy AP; and your own AP. Not to mention AoE nuke with 1.0 AP ratio; is not good scaling? The only reason he's problematic is getting to late game; similar problem with Poppy; Endgame is not his issue; getting there is. If you want to complain about champion; complain about the right things. Yeah I'm not convinced you've played more than 10 games of Veigar. He's essentially an assassin with aoe stun; what's not good about that? He's made of paper and QSS is a giant fuck you. Late game he's only good if the enemy is bad, because there is zero chance you can safely assassinate anyone of importance without getting blown up before you can even unload your spells. Your team can try to create space for you in team fights, but that consumes valuable resources that would be better spent on other things and there's no reason to play Veigar when a million other people do things better. Veigar is not a good late game champion at all. He's an extremely strong mid game champion, and a terrible late game champion. It's always been this way, but people are too blinded by assumptions to realize this fact. Wut; are you really complaining about QSS when playing veigar? I'd take that E exchange cooldown for their QSS cooldown 100% of the time. Like, this is what I mean. You just theorycraft random shit in a vacuum without ever having played the champion and think you're on to something. If you don't understand why QSS destroys Veigar there's no point saying anything else. (Also I've explained all of these things ad nauseum already, but hey that's TL GD for you, only the dumb troll shit gets remembered none of the actual useful stuff) inb4 when nien is brought up. Almost any late game AP carry can blow shit up. Just most of them can do more than that. Veigar blows his load then needs a nap. I can just pick Diana or Kat and still do that followed by blowing more people up and doing lots of useful things.
His Q is on a 3 sec cooldown with some cdr.
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As noted, by late game the enemy team has already itemized defenses against Veigar, and his presence in teamfights is limited to stun and hoping to blow up one enemy. I've tried buying a Lich Bane to help him out during the downtime, but still not up to par.
Back when I first started playing (through the entirety of S1 and part of S2), Veigar was one of my mains, but really, C-Sheep is basically spot on when talking about his problems. It's just so easy to shut him down early on, and after midgame, his ability to kill an important target falls once people pick up QSS, BVs, etc.
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The most annoying thing playing Nocturne against a super fed Rengar is that your spellshield doesn't work on his Q, since he doesn't cast it on you.
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United States10796 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:46 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 06:12 Diamond wrote:On July 11 2013 06:10 wei2coolman wrote:On July 11 2013 06:04 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 06:03 arb wrote:On July 11 2013 06:01 wei2coolman wrote:On July 11 2013 05:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 05:54 wei2coolman wrote:On July 11 2013 05:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 04:31 wei2coolman wrote:
[quote]
1 shotting tanks in a rotation = bad late game; wut am I reading. 5-6 item vieg should be able 1 shot ANY champion.
I hate reading posts like this because it's obvious no one here actually plays Veigar and just assumes what Veigar can and cannot do based on...idk it's not even based on bad theorycraft it's just based on nothing besides some vague reputation of "VEIGAR BURST ANYONE WITH INFINITE AP VEIGAR GOOD." By that same logic Sion is a monster late game cause INFINITE HEALTH so you will NEVER DIE amirite?? -___- Because AOE stun; an Ulti that scales off enemy AP; and your own AP. Not to mention AoE nuke with 1.0 AP ratio; is not good scaling? The only reason he's problematic is getting to late game; similar problem with Poppy; Endgame is not his issue; getting there is. If you want to complain about champion; complain about the right things. Yeah I'm not convinced you've played more than 10 games of Veigar. He's essentially an assassin with aoe stun; what's not good about that? Ya It's basically a better amumu ult on a 16sec cd, real underrated ability imo TIL Amumu ult only hits people along the edge of the circle. I hate it whenever Veigar comes up because I've explained pretty much everything there is to explain about Veigar infinite times but no one ever listens and keep regurgitating the same bullshit about infinite scaling when that's like not at all relevant. No one is saying infinite scaling is what makes his late game good though; We're saying he can blow people up cuz his REGULAR scaling is insane. On July 11 2013 06:09 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 06:08 wei2coolman wrote:On July 11 2013 06:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 06:00 Diamond wrote:
What we talking about with Veigar? I love that dude, even own every skin but 1 of his. Was my 2nd champ I played after Annie, played an asston with him. My greatest regret is that I can't get Curling Veigar. On July 11 2013 06:01 wei2coolman wrote:On July 11 2013 05:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 05:54 wei2coolman wrote:On July 11 2013 05:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
[quote]
I hate reading posts like this because it's obvious no one here actually plays Veigar and just assumes what Veigar can and cannot do based on...idk it's not even based on bad theorycraft it's just based on nothing besides some vague reputation of "VEIGAR BURST ANYONE WITH INFINITE AP VEIGAR GOOD."
By that same logic Sion is a monster late game cause INFINITE HEALTH so you will NEVER DIE amirite??
-___- Because AOE stun; an Ulti that scales off enemy AP; and your own AP. Not to mention AoE nuke with 1.0 AP ratio; is not good scaling? The only reason he's problematic is getting to late game; similar problem with Poppy; Endgame is not his issue; getting there is. If you want to complain about champion; complain about the right things. Yeah I'm not convinced you've played more than 10 games of Veigar. He's essentially an assassin with aoe stun; what's not good about that? He's made of paper and QSS is a giant fuck you. Late game he's only good if the enemy is bad, because there is zero chance you can safely assassinate anyone of importance without getting blown up before you can even unload your spells. Your team can try to create space for you in team fights, but that consumes valuable resources that would be better spent on other things and there's no reason to play Veigar when a million other people do things better. Veigar is not a good late game champion at all. He's an extremely strong mid game champion, and a terrible late game champion. It's always been this way, but people are too blinded by assumptions to realize this fact. Wut; are you really complaining about QSS when playing veigar? I'd take that E exchange cooldown for their QSS cooldown 100% of the time. Like, this is what I mean. You just theorycraft random shit in a vacuum without ever having played the champion and think you're on to something. If you don't understand why QSS destroys Veigar there's no point saying anything else. (Also I've explained all of these things ad nauseum already, but hey that's TL GD for you, only the dumb troll shit gets remembered none of the actual useful stuff) inb4 when nien is brought up. Almost any late game AP carry can blow shit up. Just most of them can do more than that. Veigar blows his load then needs a nap. I can just pick Diana or Kat and still do that followed by blowing more people up and doing lots of useful things. His Q is on a 3 sec cooldown with some cdr.
Yea and him with just Q is not good. He needs the whole e/w/q combo at a MINIMUM to do anything. Q by itself at any stage of the game is not scary unless you are at 5% health or less. Not even close.
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On July 11 2013 06:22 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 06:20 Slayer91 wrote:
you can just flash into teamfights and assassinate someone when your team engages its the time of play that most traditional aps cant do but you cant play like a traditional ap if you doent have the sustained damage Yes, vs incompetent opponents with poor positioning and item decisions. In the time it takes you to flash in and try to cast yoru combo you will get cc'ed and die instantly. But if you're vs shit people any one is OP so it's really a moot point.
I really don't understand why a forum full of people who don't actually have more than 20 games of Veigar put together between them are trying to talk about how to play Veigar.I find it funny you call Veigar a non-traditional AP when Veigar is the paradigm for how AP used to be played (Veigar, Annie, old Ryze). RIP good old days, now we have all this overpowered shit that people think defines "traditional AP" zz,
lol; no one here is saying veigar is viable in competitive play; nor are we trying to convince you of this. All we're saying is 6item veigar is stupid strong; just like 6 item poppy.
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On July 11 2013 06:48 Diamond wrote:
Yea and him with just Q is not good. He needs the whole e/w/q combo at a MINIMUM to do anything. Q by itself at any stage of the game is not scary unless you are at 5% health or less. Not even close.
It's great for poking in lane, and potentially proccing a Lich Bane.
By itself, as you say, it's pretty bad.
On July 11 2013 06:49 wei2coolman wrote:
lol; no one here is saying veigar is viable in competitive play; nor are we trying to convince you of this. All we're saying is 6item veigar is stupid strong; just like 6 item poppy.
And his point is that Veigar really isn't that scary in a 6-item scenario. And really, he isn't.
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On July 11 2013 06:43 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 06:38 Slayer91 wrote:
well if you agree pickrates arent an issue we should be able to agree that he's pretty op in some situations but he's just not given enough attention
i mean his kit is soo strong I'm just explaining that his kit is not strong. All these posts come from the perspective of "omg veigar is so strong he's so underpicked" when there's really a perfectly straight forward explanation: his so-called strong late game is not merely as strong as people make it out to be, which was my only point to begin with before it spiraled into this mess.
just because you cant play him as a traditional focus tank back liner and has some problems getting in ranged (counterbalanced by his huge burst) doenst mean he's not strong late game
and with voidstaff you can still take potshots at tanks to do decent damage as long as you farmed your q well
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Baa?21247 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:46 wei2coolman wrote:
His Q is on a 3 sec cooldown with some cdr.
That's not actually good lol. That's on part with other champs who do other stuff.
Orianna Q (AOE) Ryze Q (Half AOE, 1s CDR from passive), Annie Q (can stun), Kennen Q (1k range), etc etc etc
All those other champs also bring massive utility in other forms without sacrificing the ability to do massive damage. Less direct single target burst damage compared to Veigar, but more than enough in a real teamfight scenario.
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Baa?21247 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:49 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 06:22 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 06:20 Slayer91 wrote:
you can just flash into teamfights and assassinate someone when your team engages its the time of play that most traditional aps cant do but you cant play like a traditional ap if you doent have the sustained damage Yes, vs incompetent opponents with poor positioning and item decisions. In the time it takes you to flash in and try to cast yoru combo you will get cc'ed and die instantly. But if you're vs shit people any one is OP so it's really a moot point.
I really don't understand why a forum full of people who don't actually have more than 20 games of Veigar put together between them are trying to talk about how to play Veigar.I find it funny you call Veigar a non-traditional AP when Veigar is the paradigm for how AP used to be played (Veigar, Annie, old Ryze). RIP good old days, now we have all this overpowered shit that people think defines "traditional AP" zz, lol; no one here is saying veigar is viable in competitive play; nor are we trying to convince you of this. All we're saying is 6item veigar is stupid strong; just like 6 item poppy.
6 item poppy is magnitudes stronger than 6 item veigar, as is 6 item ryze, 6 item orianna, 6 item karthus, 6 item jayce, 6 item zed, etc.
Yeah Lord Tolkien gets it. It's not that convoluted a concept, people just can't overcome pre-conceptions.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:49 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 06:22 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 06:20 Slayer91 wrote:
you can just flash into teamfights and assassinate someone when your team engages its the time of play that most traditional aps cant do but you cant play like a traditional ap if you doent have the sustained damage Yes, vs incompetent opponents with poor positioning and item decisions. In the time it takes you to flash in and try to cast yoru combo you will get cc'ed and die instantly. But if you're vs shit people any one is OP so it's really a moot point.
I really don't understand why a forum full of people who don't actually have more than 20 games of Veigar put together between them are trying to talk about how to play Veigar.I find it funny you call Veigar a non-traditional AP when Veigar is the paradigm for how AP used to be played (Veigar, Annie, old Ryze). RIP good old days, now we have all this overpowered shit that people think defines "traditional AP" zz, lol; no one here is saying veigar is viable in competitive play; nor are we trying to convince you of this. All we're saying is 6item veigar is stupid strong; just like 6 item poppy.
I'm am pretty sure cheep is telling you any 6 item anyone is strong - and that most champs with 6 items are stronger than veigar, despite his infinite scaling.
I don't feel like finding it but his argument is that veigar is weak early, strong early-mid, a monster mid, and pretty bad late (when errybody has dat gold yo).
Edit: wow, I was gang-ninja'd
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ppl said the same thing about ez and lux some time ago. then when some really good players started to not play them in a gimmicky way suddenly they became standard picks. i think veigar might be in the same category.
there is no denying that his aoe stun and scaling are scary. pretty sure there are some comps veigar can interrupt well with his stun. pretty sure when you combine veigars burst with a mix of additional burst and a decently farmed ad carry you gonna bring down tanks quicker than some of the other ap carries do.
compare him to other sqhishy champs like tf. veigar deals more damage and has an aoe stun while he pokes less and doesn't have global presence. other sqhishy burst mages like ahri and lb are more mobile but have less CC and have to go in closer to deal their combo.
i believe veigar is mostly neglected because of two reasons: there are tons of champs who are way easyer to farm with. and he is very unforgiving to play which can be very frustrating.
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Also the difference between veigar and other assassins is that he has a very long range, long duration stun which can be used for initiation or poking. Therefore the margin of error in your positioning when playing against victor is pretty small.
Oh and his entire execution combo can be performed at range => over cliffs.
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United States10796 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:56 clickrush wrote:
ppl said the same thing about ez and lux some time ago. then when some really good players started to not play them in a gimmicky way suddenly they became standard picks. i think veigar might be in the same category.
When was this? I never heard people call Lux bad ever, just was a point she was not a common pick. Ezreal the same at the start of S3 (ignoring him being part of the S2 holy trinity), and if anything Blue Ez (the standard Ez) is gimmicky. It's a specific build tailored to him, and focused on intense kiting potential, now raw ad damage. It's really good and amazing on him, but it's not standard by any means.
On July 11 2013 06:56 clickrush wrote:
there is no denying that his aoe stun and scaling are scary.
I find neither scary. His stun is in my opinion the most predictable spell in the entire game, and easy to dodge/flash. His scaling I think is not great because his early game is so shit that you never get Q farmed to an amazing point. By the time you can farm it up (lategame) getting every creep from a wave is not feasible and you want to clear waves fast, and often 3-5 people will be blitzing one down leaving you luck to get +2AP per wave.
There is few champions I fear less than 6 item Veigar. QSS literally means you should never die to him, even Banshee's does this too. One item to cancel out a champ is pretty cheap.
compare him to other sqhishy champs like tf.
TF has a semi-global and the best split pushing of any AP bar none, comparing them is not really fair as no way the little man could ever win a comparison. Absurd map control is always better than just raw damage.
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Baa?21247 Posts
Now you guys are just explaining what his skills does, and it's stuff that's common to everyone.
Yeah he can buy a Void Staff. So can everyone else in this game. What makes a champion good is something he can do that other people can't do, sufficiently well to overcome any drawbacks he has. Late game Veigar does not meet this criteria, contrary to popular belief, because when everyone can do massive damage, Veigar isn't unique.
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On July 11 2013 06:35 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 06:31 Slayer91 wrote:On July 11 2013 06:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On July 11 2013 06:28 Scip wrote:
I actually meet Veigar quite often in challenger soloQ and he always seemed a beast lategame. When I discussed it with Myw and Xpeke after game they both agreed that Veigar lategame is overpowered bullshit that has to be stopped midgame. http://www.lolking.net/champions/veigar®ion=euw&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=challenger#statisticsHe gets picked an average of once a day. I don't know what "quite often" means for you but apparently it's quite different from what it means for me. its a pretty relative considering how few challenger people there are and the how long their queue times are and considering there are way more champs than challenger players in a server etc i think we can agree that anivia is a pretty beast champ also picked 1-2 times a day and was more popular and we have froggen skewing statisics so Pick rates don't mean how -good- a champion is, more how a champ fits into the current meta/popularity (Anivia isn't that popular, but still ok). It's more Scip's comment that he runs into Veigar "quite often" which is obviously not true unless he counts running into a Veigar once a month as "quite often." The past three weeks saw a grand total of 7 Veigar picks in Challenger solo q. How many of those were Scip in lol?
Competitively, Anivia is really hard to make work right now. vulnerable early game against most AD mids, insanely blue reliant, needs one mana item at minimum, generally 2, poor roam/dueling, and a whole host of other issues, despite having one of the strongest and most consistent lategames of all AP's(Karthus is very ult dependant, Ryze outscales damage-wise, but is short ranged). I've tried more than a lot of people to make her work, and while I have a good winrate/KDA, it's rare that I snowball my own lane or other lanes
While I don't think veigar's lategame is horrible, the problem with him is that to assassinate a good target, he has to
A. blow flash
B. Target doesn't have QSS/cleanse/banshee's
and even with zhonya's, that positioning will mean he blows up if his team didn't win within that duration. It's not like leblanc or kassadin where with good positioning, they'll get back out alive. He's an AP assassin with no outs. Scaling into lategame doesn't mean he's good lategame, because trading 1 for 1 every time isn't good for somebody who's probably number 2 farm priority.
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On July 11 2013 07:09 JimmiC wrote:
He has by far the best Leprachan skin, and my friend that is unique
I have the Veigar Greybeard skin. Pretty much ever since like...the beginning of S1.
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EPT
