EPTEveryone tunnel visions on SO MUCH DAMAGE when, as Diamond correctly pointed out, a lot of people can one shot people while doing more. in addition, what peopel don't realize is that Veigar begins one shotting people the moment he gets his DFG, and sometimes a little bit before, and that continues all the way to late game. By the time late game hits, however, people have defensive items and QSSs and are grouped in team fights, when Veigar'a assassination is completely useless since he can't safely get to priority targets. What are you gonna do, blow your load ont he 200 mr 4k hp shen? Yeah sure you get him down to like 1/3 hp, but then what happens? You'r useless for the rest of the team fight and youtt team is effectively fighting a 4v5.
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21245 Posts
Everyone tunnel visions on SO MUCH DAMAGE when, as Diamond correctly pointed out, a lot of people can one shot people while doing more. in addition, what peopel don't realize is that Veigar begins one shotting people the moment he gets his DFG, and sometimes a little bit before, and that continues all the way to late game. By the time late game hits, however, people have defensive items and QSSs and are grouped in team fights, when Veigar'a assassination is completely useless since he can't safely get to priority targets. What are you gonna do, blow your load ont he 200 mr 4k hp shen? Yeah sure you get him down to like 1/3 hp, but then what happens? You'r useless for the rest of the team fight and youtt team is effectively fighting a 4v5. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:12 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: That's only part of the reason. My point is that Veigar's late game isn't actually good contrary to popular belief. Veigar is weak in lane, very good early mid game, monstrous mid game, and just starts declining again down to late game when he's irrelevant. No one believes me though. They think Veigar gets stronger as the game goes on, when it's really he builds up, peaks, then falls back down. It's more like, viegar is weak early, good mid, weak late, and godlike in that super-long 80 minute game that never happens Also, isn't his stun instantaneous? If you're good at aiming it, you should get at least someone in it, I would think | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21245 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:20 Slayer91 wrote: you can just flash into teamfights and assassinate someone when your team engages its the time of play that most traditional aps cant do but you cant play like a traditional ap if you doent have the sustained damage Yes, vs incompetent opponents with poor positioning and item decisions. In the time it takes you to flash in and try to cast yoru combo you will get cc'ed and die instantly. But if you're vs shit people any one is OP so it's really a moot point. I really don't understand why a forum full of people who don't actually have more than 20 games of Veigar put together between them are trying to talk about how to play Veigar. I find it funny you call Veigar a non-traditional AP when Veigar is the paradigm for how AP used to be played (Veigar, Annie, old Ryze). RIP good old days, now we have all this overpowered shit that people think defines "traditional AP" zz, | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
So if you blow up their AP carry, they might as well have blown you up too. You can shoot Q's and W's without wall (so scary...). Until your wall and ult are back up, you are a waste of space. Again, I can grab say Diana or Kat, nuke someone and STILL do stuff. In fact as an example with Diana I can blow up multiple people while providing a badass initiation that provides up to a 55% slow that you simply can't dodge like you can with Veigar wall. Even using a non-AP in Kha'Zix. Zix can poke well, provide an AOE slow, has an assassination move, and can run down teams with the leap reset like no other. He blows up one person HARD, but still has things he can do afterwords to take advantage of that man advantage. Sure Veigar blows up one person well, but that's ALL he does. He provides no utility and has half his kit that works once a teamfight. The game has evolved and that is no longer an acceptable thing for an AP carry mid I think. Remember people there is a reason people don't play Sion. Things that are good on paper are not always good in real life. | ||
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ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
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SidianTheBard
United States2475 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21245 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:22 thenexusp wrote: It's more like, viegar is weak early, good mid, weak late, and godlike in that super-long 80 minute game that never happens Also, isn't his stun instantaneous? If you're good at aiming it, you should get at least someone in it, I would think When everyone has 6 items Veigar is underwhelming. Yes, he -theoretically- scales infinitely - he gets 1 ap for every creep you last hit (2 for the big ones now, yay?) but have any of you guys actually sat down and thought about how much AP that is? I'll use myself as a personal example - I've played well over 1k games of Veigar. The Most AP I've gotten from his Q passive is less than 200. That adds ~400 points of damage to his full combo, unmitigated. When everyone has 6 items, you're realistically adding 200-300 points of damage depending on who you hit to your burst when everyone is rocking 3k+ hp. It's really quite insignificant. Stun is good, yeah, but it's hard to stun priority targets, and on the off chance you do, half of them can get out (think bullshit like Ezreal) and the other half have QSS. Then the team fight immediately starts and you're out an important CD :| | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:25 SidianTheBard wrote: Wonder how Support Veigar would do. His stun is a great zoning tool and his ult, even with no items still scales well depending on the enemy APs. Maybe would do well against those double AP comps you see all the time? I play support veigar in ARAMs, no one ever wants to buy the amazing aura items at my level | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:22 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Yes, vs incompetent opponents with poor positioning and item decisions. In the time it takes you to flash in and try to cast yoru combo you will get cc'ed and die instantly. But if you're vs shit people any one is OP so it's really a moot point. I really don't understand why a forum full of people who don't actually have more than 20 games of Veigar put together between them are trying to talk about how to play Veigar. I find it funny you call Veigar a non-traditional AP when Veigar is the paradigm for how AP used to be played (Veigar, Annie, old Ryze). RIP good old days, now we have all this overpowered shit that people think defines "traditional AP" zz, depends on your teamcomp if you have a support like leona with 2 bruisers mid and bot who just engaged who has time to react and insta gib you when you flash in afterwards and stun with your aoe amumu ult | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21245 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:25 SidianTheBard wrote: Wonder how Support Veigar would do. His stun is a great zoning tool and his ult, even with no items still scales well depending on the enemy APs. Maybe would do well against those double AP comps you see all the time? It's really bad versus aggressive people, but if you somehow get an earlya dvantage you can press the advantage forever. Again, it's more dependent on opponent misplay and capitalizing on it than anything inherent in support Veigar. 2 of his spells are just absolutely useless as support and his ult is only half-useful. Unfortunately this is not DotA where supports like Lion can one shot people in lane. (I've played a lot of support Veigar, but I would never do it in a serious setting) | ||
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RagequitBM
Canada2270 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:25 SidianTheBard wrote: Wonder how Support Veigar would do. His stun is a great zoning tool and his ult, even with no items still scales well depending on the enemy APs. Maybe would do well against those double AP comps you see all the time? This guy gets it. Currently 6 - 1 with Veigar + Vayne bottom. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21245 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:28 Scip wrote: I actually meet Veigar quite often in challenger soloQ and he always seemed a beast lategame. When I discussed it with Myw and Xpeke after game they both agreed that Veigar lategame is overpowered bullshit that has to be stopped midgame. http://www.lolking.net/champions/veigar®ion=euw&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=challenger#statistics He gets picked an average of less than once a day. I don't know what "quite often" means for you but apparently it's quite different from what it means for me. | ||
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ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:28 RagequitBM wrote: This guy gets it. Currently 6 - 1 with Veigar + Vayne bottom. Cage around someone and then shoot them into the edge of the cage, omfg op. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: http://www.lolking.net/champions/veigar®ion=euw&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=challenger#statistics He gets picked an average of once a day. I don't know what "quite often" means for you but apparently it's quite different from what it means for me. its a pretty relative considering how few challenger people there are and the how long their queue times are and considering there are way more champs than challenger players in a server etc i think we can agree that anivia is a pretty beast champ also picked 1-2 times a day and was more popular and we have froggen skewing statisics so even rammus has a really low pick rate and thats with scip playing him quite a lot and his winrate being absurdly high | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:28 Scip wrote: I actually meet Veigar quite often in challenger soloQ and he always seemed a beast lategame. When I discussed it with Myw and Xpeke after game they both agreed that Veigar lategame is overpowered bullshit that has to be stopped midgame. I also heard MegaZero say that Zac is literally the worst champion in the game the other day. Does not make it true. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21245 Posts
On July 11 2013 06:31 Slayer91 wrote: its a pretty relative considering how few challenger people there are and the how long their queue times are and considering there are way more champs than challenger players in a server etc i think we can agree that anivia is a pretty beast champ also picked 1-2 times a day and was more popular and we have froggen skewing statisics so Pick rates don't mean how -good- a champion is, more how a champ fits into the current meta/popularity (Anivia isn't that popular, but still ok). It's more Scip's comment that he runs into Veigar "quite often" which is obviously not true unless he counts running into a Veigar once a month as "quite often." The past three weeks saw a grand total of 7 Veigar picks in Challenger solo q. How many of those were Scip in lol? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
i mean his kit is soo strong | ||
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