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Looks like we're back to status quo. Hope more of you lurkers unburrow and talk with us. :3 If you have any issues or comments about the new design, feel free to PM Neo. |
Hourglass is BS on everyone though. Honestly, it is probably the single best item in the game because of its on-demand utility.
If you scale off AP at all its a must buy. Yesterday I singlehandedly lost a game as Eve by forgetting about the active during a key fight, and then 2 games later won a game by using it in a totally clutch way vs. A talon+jarvan dive as Morgana.
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Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it.
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On June 08 2013 16:40 Seuss wrote:
Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it.
Well, when you look at the enigmatic "AD Caster" class, which seemingly includes Talon, Khazix, Zed, Pantheon, and maybe a few others, you see how the lack of an Hourglass analog means that they are only good with ridiculous numbers, and are incredibly difficult to balance.
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On June 08 2013 16:40 Seuss wrote:
Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it.
They just need to increase the cooldown to something acceptable. It's currently only a 90 sec cooldown. Way too low for what it does.
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Baa?21242 Posts
are you guys seriously suggesting nerfing hourglass when its the league of jayce zed khazix and shit right now rofl
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On June 08 2013 16:40 Seuss wrote:
Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it.
I wouldn't call it the Flash syndrome. Hourglass is one of the few (maybe the only) interesting items. It's broken because the other items are so bland and uninteresting. The solution here is to make more items like it. Not only would hourglass not be broken anymore, but the game itself would become more interesting.
If League was re made from scratch without Flash, I would argue that it would be better. Flash is just something that Riot created as part of their summoner spells (if it were up to me, I'd remove every summoner spell. Scrap ignite, TP scrolls instead of TP, etc.) and while it would make the game less interesting if it was removed and no other changes were made, I think that, unlike Zhonyas, it's detrimental to the game. I hope I explained myself well, this issue is kinda delicate
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On June 08 2013 17:06 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
are you guys seriously suggesting nerfing hourglass when its the league of jayce zed khazix and shit right now rofl
LOL no. Look at me earlier being sarcastic.
On June 08 2013 14:06 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 13:33 gtrsrs wrote:On June 08 2013 13:28 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 13:22 gtrsrs wrote:
i just laned against a kennen that had 85 AP at level 7, while also having 110 armor
how is this possible?
checking his runes he had +26 ap +13 armor. someone pls help me. his only item at the time was seeker's (and a d-blade and boots, neither of which give armor or ap)
he can get 45 armor and 35 ap from seeker's (which wasn't fully stacked by this time)
kennen's base armor is 14 (+3.75) so he should have had 40.25 base, +13 runes, +45 max from seeker's = 98.25. defensive runes gave him 2 more, that's still 10 armor unaccounted for
his ap should have been 35 + 26 = 61... another 25 unaccounted for. 7 for blast mastery, 6 for mental force, 5% for archmage would be ~78. ~8 ap unaccounted for
so this guy basically had 200g + 174g = 374g free stats out of nowhere.
edit: ignite mastery + 5 ap okay so ap is basically accounted for
pls tl tell me how this happened. is there some sort of hack to equip multiple runes in slots or something? kennen is bullshit enough as it is. infinite range no resources impossible to catch. how did he get so much free shit too? Perhaps an http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Elixir_of_Brilliance + defensive masteries of some sort instead? no, i checked, he was running 21/9/0 he also didn't have a blue pot, but yeah that would be one way to explain it holy shit ap champs are so bullshit i need to play them more I suggest you tell your team how BS AP champs are. And ban them from playing Zed, Khazix, and Jayce. It will turn out well for you :p
The reality is that the "AD Caster" class can't be balanced, because currently they need to kill their target in 1 combo because they lack hourglass. Hourglass is awesome because it allows for counterplay on both sides. Especially when compared to death mark, etc.
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On June 08 2013 16:49 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 16:40 Seuss wrote:
Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it. Well, when you look at the enigmatic "AD Caster" class, which seemingly includes Talon, Khazix, Zed, Pantheon, and maybe a few others, you see how the lack of an Hourglass analog means that they are only good with ridiculous numbers, and are incredibly difficult to balance.
AD Assassins are usually thrown in with AD casters because they largely do the same thing. Toss out abilities with high ad scaling and burst stuff down. Casters tend to have the subrole of being somewhat tanky and sitting in the fight. Which makes Riven all the more precarious since she's in the middle of both.
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United States47024 Posts
I don't know how "X item is one of the best items in the game" automatically leads to the conclusion "we need to nerf X".
There's always going to be something that's really good. Zhonya's is one of the more interesting items to have be really good, and I'd rather it stay that way than nerf it and have some boring stat-only item be the new AP FotM item.
Like, I don't know how we got into this rut where everyone suddenly thinks something being really good means something is WRONG.
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On June 08 2013 17:11 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 16:49 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 16:40 Seuss wrote:
Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it. Well, when you look at the enigmatic "AD Caster" class, which seemingly includes Talon, Khazix, Zed, Pantheon, and maybe a few others, you see how the lack of an Hourglass analog means that they are only good with ridiculous numbers, and are incredibly difficult to balance. AD Assassins are usually thrown in with AD casters because they largely do the same thing. Toss out abilities with high ad scaling and burst stuff down. Casters tend to have the subrole of being somewhat tanky and sitting in the fight. Which makes Riven all the more precarious since she's in the middle of both.
I think you bring up a great point in that it is hard to distinguish between what is an Assassin and what is an AD bruiser/diver.
Whatever the distinction is, I think most people would agree we want to move closer to Irelia/Jax instead of Talon/Zed, simply because getting off 5 Autoattacks + all your abilities is harder, and allows more counterplay than smashing all 4 abilities. Riven, as you mentioned, sits at the middle of this because you need to AA + use abilities to maximize her potential. However, even with Megahero + the bestrivenNA tourney, I still never see them.
edit: On June 08 2013 17:19 TheYango wrote:
I don't know how "X item is one of the best items in the game" automatically leads to the conclusion "we need to nerf X".
There's always going to be something that's really good. Zhonya's is one of the more interesting items to have be really good, and I'd rather it stay that way than nerf it and have some boring stat-only item be the new AP FotM item.
Like, I don't know how we got into this rut where everyone suddenly thinks something being really good means something is WRONG.
YES. We need more Zhonyas Hourglasses. I fuck that shit up all the time. The reason Talon sucks and Zed is OP is because there is no Zhonyas for AD. The problem, of course realy is that AD Carries would build AD Zhonyas, but that is Riots fault for creating AD Casters.
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United States47024 Posts
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol.
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On June 08 2013 17:20 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 17:11 Gahlo wrote:On June 08 2013 16:49 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 16:40 Seuss wrote:
Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it. Well, when you look at the enigmatic "AD Caster" class, which seemingly includes Talon, Khazix, Zed, Pantheon, and maybe a few others, you see how the lack of an Hourglass analog means that they are only good with ridiculous numbers, and are incredibly difficult to balance. AD Assassins are usually thrown in with AD casters because they largely do the same thing. Toss out abilities with high ad scaling and burst stuff down. Casters tend to have the subrole of being somewhat tanky and sitting in the fight. Which makes Riven all the more precarious since she's in the middle of both. I think you bring up a great point in that it is hard to distinguish between what is an Assassin and what is an AD bruiser/diver. Whatever the distinction is, I think most people would agree we want to move closer to Irelia/Jax instead of Talon/Zed, simply because getting off 5 Autoattacks + all your abilities is harder, and allows more counterplay than smashing all 4 abilities. Riven, as you mentioned, sits at the middle of this because you need to AA + use abilities to maximize her potential. However, even with Megahero + the bestrivenNA tourney, I still never see them.
I'm not sure I agree. Irelia/Jax are both very bland champions design wise. Both have no weaknesses and do everything. They are boring to play (opinions) and they create boring gameplay from a spectator's POV (opinion?)
I would rather there to be more champions who are good at things and bad at things. (Be it killing, CC, sustain, displacement, etc.)
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On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol.
He doesn't understand how to balance his own game.
On June 08 2013 17:23 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 17:20 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:11 Gahlo wrote:On June 08 2013 16:49 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 16:40 Seuss wrote:
Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it. Well, when you look at the enigmatic "AD Caster" class, which seemingly includes Talon, Khazix, Zed, Pantheon, and maybe a few others, you see how the lack of an Hourglass analog means that they are only good with ridiculous numbers, and are incredibly difficult to balance. AD Assassins are usually thrown in with AD casters because they largely do the same thing. Toss out abilities with high ad scaling and burst stuff down. Casters tend to have the subrole of being somewhat tanky and sitting in the fight. Which makes Riven all the more precarious since she's in the middle of both. I think you bring up a great point in that it is hard to distinguish between what is an Assassin and what is an AD bruiser/diver. Whatever the distinction is, I think most people would agree we want to move closer to Irelia/Jax instead of Talon/Zed, simply because getting off 5 Autoattacks + all your abilities is harder, and allows more counterplay than smashing all 4 abilities. Riven, as you mentioned, sits at the middle of this because you need to AA + use abilities to maximize her potential. However, even with Megahero + the bestrivenNA tourney, I still never see them. I'm not sure I agree. Irelia/Jax are both very bland champions design wise. Both have no weaknesses and do everything. They are boring to play (opinions) and they create boring gameplay from a spectator's POV (opinion?)
If you are creating a diver (which you don't have to) you want it to be more Jax/Irelia than Talon/Zed, that is my point.
You could get rid of Jax/Irelia/Zed/Talon/Khazix/Diana/Lee SIn/Malphite/Nocturne/Olaf/Pantheon/Rengar/Vi and then balance the game around Ranged AD champs having almost no real threats. However, some of those champs: Jax, Irelia, Nocturne, Olaf cannot kill a glass cannon AD Carry in 1 rotation, while the others can (or if they can't suck).
On June 08 2013 17:30 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol. Irelia has one of the most retarded kits in the game. Super-tenacity + point-and-click gapcloser on short CD = diaster.
Reforming her passive is actually a legit plan for "fixing" Irelia. If you gave her Free AD or lifesteal early instead, it would reduce lategame potency while ameliorating earlygame impotency.
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On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol.
Irelia has one of the most retarded kits in the game.
Super-tenacity + point-and-click gapcloser on short CD = diaster.
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On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol.
Eh, that's because her kit's the prototype for the metagolems of S2. Too much of everything all over the place.
I mean, she's my go-to top lane at need, and I'll admit that her kit is silly.
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On June 08 2013 17:20 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 17:11 Gahlo wrote:On June 08 2013 16:49 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 16:40 Seuss wrote:
Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it. Well, when you look at the enigmatic "AD Caster" class, which seemingly includes Talon, Khazix, Zed, Pantheon, and maybe a few others, you see how the lack of an Hourglass analog means that they are only good with ridiculous numbers, and are incredibly difficult to balance. AD Assassins are usually thrown in with AD casters because they largely do the same thing. Toss out abilities with high ad scaling and burst stuff down. Casters tend to have the subrole of being somewhat tanky and sitting in the fight. Which makes Riven all the more precarious since she's in the middle of both. I think you bring up a great point in that it is hard to distinguish between what is an Assassin and what is an AD bruiser/diver. Whatever the distinction is, I think most people would agree we want to move closer to Irelia/Jax instead of Talon/Zed, simply because getting off 5 Autoattacks + all your abilities is harder, and allows more counterplay than smashing all 4 abilities. Riven, as you mentioned, sits at the middle of this because you need to AA + use abilities to maximize her potential. However, even with Megahero + the bestrivenNA tourney, I still never see them. edit: Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 17:19 TheYango wrote:
I don't know how "X item is one of the best items in the game" automatically leads to the conclusion "we need to nerf X".
There's always going to be something that's really good. Zhonya's is one of the more interesting items to have be really good, and I'd rather it stay that way than nerf it and have some boring stat-only item be the new AP FotM item.
Like, I don't know how we got into this rut where everyone suddenly thinks something being really good means something is WRONG. YES. We need more Zhonyas Hourglasses. I fuck that shit up all the time. The reason Talon sucks and Zed is OP is because there is no Zhonyas for AD. The problem, of course realy is that AD Carries would build AD Zhonyas, but that is Riots fault for creating AD Casters.
The issue with Riven is that she is expected to dance(dear god I hate that term, but it was what Xypherous used) in and out of fights and be melee without being bruiser-level tanky. This causes strain on her kit, since she usually needs to use up a lot of her mobility to move around or stick to a target. So she either gives up mobility for all-ining into the fight, or gives up damage because she's a melee that, outside of her shield, builds 1, maybe 2 defencive items lategame for durability.
Team play destroys a kit with such dissonance. Hell, even half decent solo queue does.
I have major issues with AD itemization because of this. -.-
WTB AD Zhonya equivalent of BF + Vest(or if you want to direct mirror, cloth/cloth/sword) with active making you immune to crits to 2.5 seconds.
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On June 08 2013 17:29 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol. He doesn't understand how to balance his own game. Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 17:23 OutlaW- wrote:On June 08 2013 17:20 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:11 Gahlo wrote:On June 08 2013 16:49 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 16:40 Seuss wrote:
Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it. Well, when you look at the enigmatic "AD Caster" class, which seemingly includes Talon, Khazix, Zed, Pantheon, and maybe a few others, you see how the lack of an Hourglass analog means that they are only good with ridiculous numbers, and are incredibly difficult to balance. AD Assassins are usually thrown in with AD casters because they largely do the same thing. Toss out abilities with high ad scaling and burst stuff down. Casters tend to have the subrole of being somewhat tanky and sitting in the fight. Which makes Riven all the more precarious since she's in the middle of both. I think you bring up a great point in that it is hard to distinguish between what is an Assassin and what is an AD bruiser/diver. Whatever the distinction is, I think most people would agree we want to move closer to Irelia/Jax instead of Talon/Zed, simply because getting off 5 Autoattacks + all your abilities is harder, and allows more counterplay than smashing all 4 abilities. Riven, as you mentioned, sits at the middle of this because you need to AA + use abilities to maximize her potential. However, even with Megahero + the bestrivenNA tourney, I still never see them. I'm not sure I agree. Irelia/Jax are both very bland champions design wise. Both have no weaknesses and do everything. They are boring to play (opinions) and they create boring gameplay from a spectator's POV (opinion?) If you are creating a diver (which you don't have to) you want it to be more Jax/Irelia than Talon/Zed, that is my point. You could get rid of Jax/Irelia/Zed/Talon/Khazix/Diana/Lee SIn/Malphite/Nocturne/Olaf/Pantheon/Rengar/Vi and then balance the game around Ranged AD champs having almost no real threats. However, some of those champs: Jax, Irelia, Nocturne, Olaf cannot kill a glass cannon AD Carry in 1 rotation, while the others can (or if they can't suck). Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 17:30 Sufficiency wrote:On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol. Irelia has one of the most retarded kits in the game. Super-tenacity + point-and-click gapcloser on short CD = diaster. Reforming her passive is actually a legit plan for "fixing" Irelia. If you gave her Free AD or lifesteal early instead, it would reduce lategame potency while ameliorating earlygame impotency.
Are you trying to make me confused..
Also, I think champions like Zed/Lee/Talon create much more interesting gameplay than Olaf, Irelia or Jax. Same with my personal enjoyment of playing them, too.
I wonder why N'aix is so fun and Irelia is so boring. (Tenacity = Rage, Stun = Slow, Lifesteal, Extra onhit damage. Basically a port)
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On June 08 2013 17:42 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 17:29 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol. He doesn't understand how to balance his own game. On June 08 2013 17:23 OutlaW- wrote:On June 08 2013 17:20 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:11 Gahlo wrote:On June 08 2013 16:49 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 16:40 Seuss wrote:
Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it. Well, when you look at the enigmatic "AD Caster" class, which seemingly includes Talon, Khazix, Zed, Pantheon, and maybe a few others, you see how the lack of an Hourglass analog means that they are only good with ridiculous numbers, and are incredibly difficult to balance. AD Assassins are usually thrown in with AD casters because they largely do the same thing. Toss out abilities with high ad scaling and burst stuff down. Casters tend to have the subrole of being somewhat tanky and sitting in the fight. Which makes Riven all the more precarious since she's in the middle of both. I think you bring up a great point in that it is hard to distinguish between what is an Assassin and what is an AD bruiser/diver. Whatever the distinction is, I think most people would agree we want to move closer to Irelia/Jax instead of Talon/Zed, simply because getting off 5 Autoattacks + all your abilities is harder, and allows more counterplay than smashing all 4 abilities. Riven, as you mentioned, sits at the middle of this because you need to AA + use abilities to maximize her potential. However, even with Megahero + the bestrivenNA tourney, I still never see them. I'm not sure I agree. Irelia/Jax are both very bland champions design wise. Both have no weaknesses and do everything. They are boring to play (opinions) and they create boring gameplay from a spectator's POV (opinion?) If you are creating a diver (which you don't have to) you want it to be more Jax/Irelia than Talon/Zed, that is my point. You could get rid of Jax/Irelia/Zed/Talon/Khazix/Diana/Lee SIn/Malphite/Nocturne/Olaf/Pantheon/Rengar/Vi and then balance the game around Ranged AD champs having almost no real threats. However, some of those champs: Jax, Irelia, Nocturne, Olaf cannot kill a glass cannon AD Carry in 1 rotation, while the others can (or if they can't suck). On June 08 2013 17:30 Sufficiency wrote:On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol. Irelia has one of the most retarded kits in the game. Super-tenacity + point-and-click gapcloser on short CD = diaster. Reforming her passive is actually a legit plan for "fixing" Irelia. If you gave her Free AD or lifesteal early instead, it would reduce lategame potency while ameliorating earlygame impotency. Are you trying to make me confused.. Also, I think champions like Zed/Lee/Talon create much more interesting gameplay than Olaf, Irelia or Jax. Same with my personal enjoyment of playing them, too. I wonder why N'aix is so fun and Irelia is so boring. (Tenacity = Rage, Stun = Slow, Lifesteal, Extra onhit damage. Basically a port)
I do not intend confusion. My point is easily described in a a graph.
http://postimg.org/image/93yseznr3/
Assume both lines do equal DPS. The green line is preferable from a design standpoint.
Zed: REQ: Are you dead?
Lee: QER: Have you been killed (by the way, Lee is the least bad of my bad examples)
Talon: EQWR: Did you win? No? Ok ur useless.
Opposed to:
Olaf: Land Q? No?/Yes? Well fish for Q. You need to hit 1, commit then hit a 2nd to do will.
Irelia/Jax: Q>W Need 4 seconds at least to do my job.
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On June 08 2013 17:53 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 17:42 OutlaW- wrote:On June 08 2013 17:29 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol. He doesn't understand how to balance his own game. On June 08 2013 17:23 OutlaW- wrote:On June 08 2013 17:20 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:11 Gahlo wrote:On June 08 2013 16:49 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 16:40 Seuss wrote:
Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it. Well, when you look at the enigmatic "AD Caster" class, which seemingly includes Talon, Khazix, Zed, Pantheon, and maybe a few others, you see how the lack of an Hourglass analog means that they are only good with ridiculous numbers, and are incredibly difficult to balance. AD Assassins are usually thrown in with AD casters because they largely do the same thing. Toss out abilities with high ad scaling and burst stuff down. Casters tend to have the subrole of being somewhat tanky and sitting in the fight. Which makes Riven all the more precarious since she's in the middle of both. I think you bring up a great point in that it is hard to distinguish between what is an Assassin and what is an AD bruiser/diver. Whatever the distinction is, I think most people would agree we want to move closer to Irelia/Jax instead of Talon/Zed, simply because getting off 5 Autoattacks + all your abilities is harder, and allows more counterplay than smashing all 4 abilities. Riven, as you mentioned, sits at the middle of this because you need to AA + use abilities to maximize her potential. However, even with Megahero + the bestrivenNA tourney, I still never see them. I'm not sure I agree. Irelia/Jax are both very bland champions design wise. Both have no weaknesses and do everything. They are boring to play (opinions) and they create boring gameplay from a spectator's POV (opinion?) If you are creating a diver (which you don't have to) you want it to be more Jax/Irelia than Talon/Zed, that is my point. You could get rid of Jax/Irelia/Zed/Talon/Khazix/Diana/Lee SIn/Malphite/Nocturne/Olaf/Pantheon/Rengar/Vi and then balance the game around Ranged AD champs having almost no real threats. However, some of those champs: Jax, Irelia, Nocturne, Olaf cannot kill a glass cannon AD Carry in 1 rotation, while the others can (or if they can't suck). On June 08 2013 17:30 Sufficiency wrote:On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol. Irelia has one of the most retarded kits in the game. Super-tenacity + point-and-click gapcloser on short CD = diaster. Reforming her passive is actually a legit plan for "fixing" Irelia. If you gave her Free AD or lifesteal early instead, it would reduce lategame potency while ameliorating earlygame impotency. Are you trying to make me confused.. Also, I think champions like Zed/Lee/Talon create much more interesting gameplay than Olaf, Irelia or Jax. Same with my personal enjoyment of playing them, too. I wonder why N'aix is so fun and Irelia is so boring. (Tenacity = Rage, Stun = Slow, Lifesteal, Extra onhit damage. Basically a port) I do not intend confusion. My point is easily described in a a graph. http://postimg.org/image/93yseznr3/Assume both lines do equal DPS. The green line is preferable from a design standpoint.
Why?
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On June 08 2013 17:57 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 17:53 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:42 OutlaW- wrote:On June 08 2013 17:29 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol. He doesn't understand how to balance his own game. On June 08 2013 17:23 OutlaW- wrote:On June 08 2013 17:20 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:11 Gahlo wrote:On June 08 2013 16:49 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 16:40 Seuss wrote:
Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it. Well, when you look at the enigmatic "AD Caster" class, which seemingly includes Talon, Khazix, Zed, Pantheon, and maybe a few others, you see how the lack of an Hourglass analog means that they are only good with ridiculous numbers, and are incredibly difficult to balance. AD Assassins are usually thrown in with AD casters because they largely do the same thing. Toss out abilities with high ad scaling and burst stuff down. Casters tend to have the subrole of being somewhat tanky and sitting in the fight. Which makes Riven all the more precarious since she's in the middle of both. I think you bring up a great point in that it is hard to distinguish between what is an Assassin and what is an AD bruiser/diver. Whatever the distinction is, I think most people would agree we want to move closer to Irelia/Jax instead of Talon/Zed, simply because getting off 5 Autoattacks + all your abilities is harder, and allows more counterplay than smashing all 4 abilities. Riven, as you mentioned, sits at the middle of this because you need to AA + use abilities to maximize her potential. However, even with Megahero + the bestrivenNA tourney, I still never see them. I'm not sure I agree. Irelia/Jax are both very bland champions design wise. Both have no weaknesses and do everything. They are boring to play (opinions) and they create boring gameplay from a spectator's POV (opinion?) If you are creating a diver (which you don't have to) you want it to be more Jax/Irelia than Talon/Zed, that is my point. You could get rid of Jax/Irelia/Zed/Talon/Khazix/Diana/Lee SIn/Malphite/Nocturne/Olaf/Pantheon/Rengar/Vi and then balance the game around Ranged AD champs having almost no real threats. However, some of those champs: Jax, Irelia, Nocturne, Olaf cannot kill a glass cannon AD Carry in 1 rotation, while the others can (or if they can't suck). On June 08 2013 17:30 Sufficiency wrote:On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol. Irelia has one of the most retarded kits in the game. Super-tenacity + point-and-click gapcloser on short CD = diaster. Reforming her passive is actually a legit plan for "fixing" Irelia. If you gave her Free AD or lifesteal early instead, it would reduce lategame potency while ameliorating earlygame impotency. Are you trying to make me confused.. Also, I think champions like Zed/Lee/Talon create much more interesting gameplay than Olaf, Irelia or Jax. Same with my personal enjoyment of playing them, too. I wonder why N'aix is so fun and Irelia is so boring. (Tenacity = Rage, Stun = Slow, Lifesteal, Extra onhit damage. Basically a port) I do not intend confusion. My point is easily described in a a graph. http://postimg.org/image/93yseznr3/Assume both lines do equal DPS. The green line is preferable from a design standpoint. Why?
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