|
Looks like we're back to status quo. Hope more of you lurkers unburrow and talk with us. :3 If you have any issues or comments about the new design, feel free to PM Neo. |
On June 08 2013 17:07 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 16:40 Seuss wrote:
Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it. I wouldn't call it the Flash syndrome. Hourglass is one of the few (maybe the only) interesting items. It's broken because the other items are so bland and uninteresting. The solution here is to make more items like it. Not only would hourglass not be broken anymore, but the game itself would become more interesting.
First, I agree with this. I think there's a bigger issue involved with Riot's current items. If anything is done to fix it, then it should be to items as a whole rather than just hourglass.
Secondly, I also think hourglass isn't exactly correct how it is currently. It's a strong item, and until other items are put in game that are as useful as this one, it needs work. It definitely needs a higher cooldown, even if it's just 30 more seconds. If we are on the subject of hourglass, I'll gladly point out that it's not properly balanced, and suggest a nerf because it realistically needs one.
|
On kit design.
My belief is that the design team comes up with the skills, the balance team comes up with the numbers, and then morello looks it over, and adds more "flavour" and removes restrictions of the kit.
I don't believe that irelia has bad kit design. Maybe in s2, she fit the meta like a glove(sustain, resist stacking, farm dependant top), but not s3(1v2, early power, strong baseline teamfighting). Her kit doesn't do an insane amount in comparison to jayce or allow for quite the same levels of outplay as zed, nor does she have the safety of a post 6 khazix.
I think the problem you have with irelia is that while her laning is quite dynamic and skill dependant(WQ low minion, stun, auto auto Q away to lasthit while dodging something, Q back auto and then walk away for example), her teamfighting is rather bland. WQ onto target, E/Botrk, and auto while spamming the R key in the direction of enemy, preferably hitting multiple people.
|
On June 08 2013 17:59 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 17:57 OutlaW- wrote:On June 08 2013 17:53 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:42 OutlaW- wrote:On June 08 2013 17:29 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol. He doesn't understand how to balance his own game. On June 08 2013 17:23 OutlaW- wrote:On June 08 2013 17:20 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:11 Gahlo wrote:On June 08 2013 16:49 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 16:40 Seuss wrote:
Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it. Well, when you look at the enigmatic "AD Caster" class, which seemingly includes Talon, Khazix, Zed, Pantheon, and maybe a few others, you see how the lack of an Hourglass analog means that they are only good with ridiculous numbers, and are incredibly difficult to balance. AD Assassins are usually thrown in with AD casters because they largely do the same thing. Toss out abilities with high ad scaling and burst stuff down. Casters tend to have the subrole of being somewhat tanky and sitting in the fight. Which makes Riven all the more precarious since she's in the middle of both. I think you bring up a great point in that it is hard to distinguish between what is an Assassin and what is an AD bruiser/diver. Whatever the distinction is, I think most people would agree we want to move closer to Irelia/Jax instead of Talon/Zed, simply because getting off 5 Autoattacks + all your abilities is harder, and allows more counterplay than smashing all 4 abilities. Riven, as you mentioned, sits at the middle of this because you need to AA + use abilities to maximize her potential. However, even with Megahero + the bestrivenNA tourney, I still never see them. I'm not sure I agree. Irelia/Jax are both very bland champions design wise. Both have no weaknesses and do everything. They are boring to play (opinions) and they create boring gameplay from a spectator's POV (opinion?) If you are creating a diver (which you don't have to) you want it to be more Jax/Irelia than Talon/Zed, that is my point. You could get rid of Jax/Irelia/Zed/Talon/Khazix/Diana/Lee SIn/Malphite/Nocturne/Olaf/Pantheon/Rengar/Vi and then balance the game around Ranged AD champs having almost no real threats. However, some of those champs: Jax, Irelia, Nocturne, Olaf cannot kill a glass cannon AD Carry in 1 rotation, while the others can (or if they can't suck). On June 08 2013 17:30 Sufficiency wrote:On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol. Irelia has one of the most retarded kits in the game. Super-tenacity + point-and-click gapcloser on short CD = diaster. Reforming her passive is actually a legit plan for "fixing" Irelia. If you gave her Free AD or lifesteal early instead, it would reduce lategame potency while ameliorating earlygame impotency. Are you trying to make me confused.. Also, I think champions like Zed/Lee/Talon create much more interesting gameplay than Olaf, Irelia or Jax. Same with my personal enjoyment of playing them, too. I wonder why N'aix is so fun and Irelia is so boring. (Tenacity = Rage, Stun = Slow, Lifesteal, Extra onhit damage. Basically a port) I do not intend confusion. My point is easily described in a a graph. http://postimg.org/image/93yseznr3/Assume both lines do equal DPS. The green line is preferable from a design standpoint. Why? See edit
I'm still not convinced. Is playing Irelia and Olaf more fun than Talon or Zed? Is watching Irelia and Olaf more fun than watching Talon or Zed? Both of these answers, for me, are still no. I think when champions are good at specific timings/things, it creates fun gameplay when you try to abuse them while at the same time abusing your opponent's weaknesses. Comboing with Zed/Talon and escaping, then going back into the fight 8 seconds later when your cooldowns are back up to clean up looks more fun to me than "Press W. Press Q. Press E. Rightclick" Irelia. Olaf is pretty fun, because personally I think spell invulneriabiality is a really fun mechanic and the fact that his slow is a skillshot that has no cooldown if you pick it right back up.
I think both Zed (let's use him) and Olaf create interesting gameplay, and it's especially exciting when these 2 types of playstyles clash. Conclusion: I think both "types" of dealing damage are fun, the important things are if the design itself is fun to play and watch. (Olaf, yes. Irelia, no. I guess it's easier to create assassins that fit this bill, as I find almost all of them exciting)
On June 08 2013 18:08 Amui wrote:
On kit design.
My belief is that the design team comes up with the skills, the balance team comes up with the numbers, and then morello looks it over, and adds more "flavour" and removes restrictions of the kit.
I don't believe that irelia has bad kit design. Maybe in s2, she fit the meta like a glove(sustain, resist stacking, farm dependant top), but not s3(1v2, early power, strong baseline teamfighting). Her kit doesn't do an insane amount in comparison to jayce or allow for quite the same levels of outplay as zed, nor does she have the safety of a post 6 khazix.
No, I think she quite literally has everything. Like you said, her kit doesn't do much, but that's precisely because she has everything. If you can do everything, you do nothing well, and thus you would often rather pick champions (like Jayce or Zed, as you said) who do some things better. Zed is much better at assassinating and outplaying (if Irelia had the possibility to outplay, she'd be broken. This is why her kit is bad.), Jayce is much better at ranged damage and poking. Irelia can do both of these things, but she does both of them much worse than Jayce/Zed.
|
I don't quite get the Morello obsession. To think that everything wrong with this game came from Morello is really odd. I know it's the only name you guys have. I know it's easier to assign blame to one person rather than a team. It's still really just weird.
|
On June 08 2013 18:13 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 17:59 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:57 OutlaW- wrote:On June 08 2013 17:53 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:42 OutlaW- wrote:On June 08 2013 17:29 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol. He doesn't understand how to balance his own game. On June 08 2013 17:23 OutlaW- wrote:On June 08 2013 17:20 cLutZ wrote:On June 08 2013 17:11 Gahlo wrote:On June 08 2013 16:49 cLutZ wrote:
[quote]
Well, when you look at the enigmatic "AD Caster" class, which seemingly includes Talon, Khazix, Zed, Pantheon, and maybe a few others, you see how the lack of an Hourglass analog means that they are only good with ridiculous numbers, and are incredibly difficult to balance. AD Assassins are usually thrown in with AD casters because they largely do the same thing. Toss out abilities with high ad scaling and burst stuff down. Casters tend to have the subrole of being somewhat tanky and sitting in the fight. Which makes Riven all the more precarious since she's in the middle of both. I think you bring up a great point in that it is hard to distinguish between what is an Assassin and what is an AD bruiser/diver. Whatever the distinction is, I think most people would agree we want to move closer to Irelia/Jax instead of Talon/Zed, simply because getting off 5 Autoattacks + all your abilities is harder, and allows more counterplay than smashing all 4 abilities. Riven, as you mentioned, sits at the middle of this because you need to AA + use abilities to maximize her potential. However, even with Megahero + the bestrivenNA tourney, I still never see them. I'm not sure I agree. Irelia/Jax are both very bland champions design wise. Both have no weaknesses and do everything. They are boring to play (opinions) and they create boring gameplay from a spectator's POV (opinion?) If you are creating a diver (which you don't have to) you want it to be more Jax/Irelia than Talon/Zed, that is my point. You could get rid of Jax/Irelia/Zed/Talon/Khazix/Diana/Lee SIn/Malphite/Nocturne/Olaf/Pantheon/Rengar/Vi and then balance the game around Ranged AD champs having almost no real threats. However, some of those champs: Jax, Irelia, Nocturne, Olaf cannot kill a glass cannon AD Carry in 1 rotation, while the others can (or if they can't suck). On June 08 2013 17:30 Sufficiency wrote:On June 08 2013 17:21 TheYango wrote:
But Morello doesn't want more champs like Irelia apparently, lol. Irelia has one of the most retarded kits in the game. Super-tenacity + point-and-click gapcloser on short CD = diaster. Reforming her passive is actually a legit plan for "fixing" Irelia. If you gave her Free AD or lifesteal early instead, it would reduce lategame potency while ameliorating earlygame impotency. Are you trying to make me confused.. Also, I think champions like Zed/Lee/Talon create much more interesting gameplay than Olaf, Irelia or Jax. Same with my personal enjoyment of playing them, too. I wonder why N'aix is so fun and Irelia is so boring. (Tenacity = Rage, Stun = Slow, Lifesteal, Extra onhit damage. Basically a port) I do not intend confusion. My point is easily described in a a graph. http://postimg.org/image/93yseznr3/Assume both lines do equal DPS. The green line is preferable from a design standpoint. Why? See edit I'm still not convinced. Is playing Irelia and Olaf more fun than Talon or Zed? Is watching Irelia and Olaf more fun than watching Talon or Zed? Both of these answers, for me, are still no. I think when champions are good at specific timings/things, it creates fun gameplay when you try to abuse them while at the same time abusing your opponent's weaknesses. Comboing with Zed/Talon and escaping, then going back into the fight 8 seconds later when your cooldowns are back up to clean up looks more fun to me than "Press W. Press Q. Press E. Rightclick" Irelia. Olaf is pretty fun, because personally I think spell invulneriabiality is a really fun mechanic and the fact that his slow is a skillshot that has no cooldown if you pick it right back up. I think both Zed (let's use him) and Olaf create interesting gameplay, and it's especially exciting when these 2 types of playstyles clash. Conclusion: I think both "types" of dealing damage are fun, the important things are if the design itself is fun to play and watch. (Olaf, yes. Irelia, no. I guess it's easier to create assassins that fit this bill, as I find almost all of them exciting)
From my POV, it would be fine to create an Irelia that could escape, Zed Style, before she kills her target.
The problem is one you are not identifying. If Zed had to Go in> DO damage>Escape >Wait 8 Secs > Go in again to be effective, that would be fine. In fact, that is part of what I am advocating.
However, current Zed just goes in like this: R>E>Q> Possibly a few AAs and that is it for the enemy squishy.
Olaf, on the other hand, has to hit Q (a skill shot) at least 2x to do that. Jax and Irelia suffer lvl 1-9+ for that privilege. .. Plus they need to stay on the target for several seconds.
Its not that Irelia is more fun than Zed (they are both lame, Irelia a bit cooler because of Q reset). The problem is that sustained damage should be better than burst, and also smartly used CC should be rewarded.
On that I take a nap.
|
Irelia's design is a high mobility, auto attack based champion with high baseline teamfighting sustain. She fits that role better than almost every other champion in the game apart from maybe poppy. Her kit isn't supposed to compete with jayce for poke, nor is it supposed to compete with Zed for the 100% chance of gibbing a squishy.
What would be your definition of a "having everything" anyways? Jayce does basically everything irelia does apart from sustain, and gains the ability to wave clear without blowing a 1 minute CD. Gap closer, auto steroid(R, range W), strong ranged wave clear, more burst, a slow and a hard CC(both independant) and better laning. And he's not a problem while irelia is?
|
On June 08 2013 18:36 Amui wrote:
Irelia's design is a high mobility, auto attack based champion with high baseline teamfighting sustain. She fits that role better than almost every other champion in the game apart from maybe poppy. Her kit isn't supposed to compete with jayce for poke, nor is it supposed to compete with Zed for the 100% chance of gibbing a squishy.
What would be your definition of a "having everything" anyways? Jayce does basically everything irelia does apart from sustain, and gains the ability to wave clear without blowing a 1 minute CD. Gap closer, auto steroid(R, range W), strong ranged wave clear, more burst, a slow and a hard CC(both independant) and better laning. And he's not a problem while irelia is?
He does have a lot, but he doesn't have as much as Irelia.
He doesn't have a stun, he doesn't have a reset, he doesn't have sustain and his steroid isn't really an onhit, it's just an attack speed buff, and most importantly, he doesn't have tankiness (his melee hammer form is laughable in terms of tankiness. If you're building AD (which you should be), you're going to blow up just like every other squishy melee assassin, unless you time it correctly.)
he interesting thing about him is though that he only has access to everything if he lines it up perfectly (so, if the situation allows him to switch forms and go in melee)
Instead of all those things that I just mentioned, he has really strong ranged poke. In my eyes, he's a very interesting champion that is both fun to play and fun to watch.
|
United States47024 Posts
On June 08 2013 18:13 ketchup wrote:
I don't quite get the Morello obsession. To think that everything wrong with this game came from Morello is really odd. I know it's the only name you guys have. I know it's easier to assign blame to one person rather than a team. It's still really just weird.
Well I dislike Guinsoo too (Guinsoo was responsible for a lot of stupid stuff that people blame Morello for when Morello was just playing the messenger), but Guinsoo isn't directly working on design anymore.
On June 08 2013 18:07 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 17:07 OutlaW- wrote:On June 08 2013 16:40 Seuss wrote:
Hourglass is definitely one of the best items in the game, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a great item because it's flashy and allows for interesting plays. It's a problematic item because it falls into Flash syndrome, it's so good but removing it would almost certainly make the game less interesting and force a massive rebalance effort due to all the champions who are utterly dependent upon it. I wouldn't call it the Flash syndrome. Hourglass is one of the few (maybe the only) interesting items. It's broken because the other items are so bland and uninteresting. The solution here is to make more items like it. Not only would hourglass not be broken anymore, but the game itself would become more interesting. First, I agree with this. I think there's a bigger issue involved with Riot's current items. If anything is done to fix it, then it should be to items as a whole rather than just hourglass. Secondly, I also think hourglass isn't exactly correct how it is currently. It's a strong item, and until other items are put in game that are as useful as this one, it needs work. It definitely needs a higher cooldown, even if it's just 30 more seconds. If we are on the subject of hourglass, I'll gladly point out that it's not properly balanced, and suggest a nerf because it realistically needs one.
You have not provided any insight as to WHY you think it needs a nerf--what poor gameplay it creates by being a strong AP item.
Item balance is completely unlike champion balance--because items are not selected through blind pick, you can't arbitrarily get "unfair" gameplay out of a strong item. As such there are really 3 concerns with item balance: how it affects the roles that use it, how it affects item selection within those roles, and whether it creates interesting gameplay (the 3rd one is pretty obvious for Hourglass).
Like, item balance only really becomes a concern if an item in question is either a) causing the role it's designed for to be over-picked/over-valued in games (this is not the case with Hourglass, given that APs are the furthest from being a necessity than they've ever been), or b) suffocating item selection for that role by being must-buy every game and stifling other possible routes of item development (also not the case--while it's frequent to get Hourglass on APs, it's not required on all APs by any means and even on those that get it, the timing can vary greatly based on the teams and on the development of the game--very good variation to have).
It's a strong item, but I think it's strong to a degree that's unavoidable and in a way that's healthy for the game.
|
Personally, as long as an item doesn't reach BKB-levels of necessity in Dota I think item balance is fine.
You honestly have no idea what it means to have an item that's so strong it's a must-buy on almost every 1-3 position carry in almost every game until you've played Dota and see the madness that is BKB.
Hourglass is super strong, but nowhere near overpowered or suffocating in terms of item selection for AP champs. If anything, Haunting Guise->Liandry's is more of an issue since that's seen in almost every single game and the damage output plus utility you get from that item is so incredibly strong.
|
On June 08 2013 18:48 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 18:36 Amui wrote:
Irelia's design is a high mobility, auto attack based champion with high baseline teamfighting sustain. She fits that role better than almost every other champion in the game apart from maybe poppy. Her kit isn't supposed to compete with jayce for poke, nor is it supposed to compete with Zed for the 100% chance of gibbing a squishy.
What would be your definition of a "having everything" anyways? Jayce does basically everything irelia does apart from sustain, and gains the ability to wave clear without blowing a 1 minute CD. Gap closer, auto steroid(R, range W), strong ranged wave clear, more burst, a slow and a hard CC(both independant) and better laning. And he's not a problem while irelia is? He does have a lot, but he doesn't have as much as Irelia. He doesn't have a stun, he doesn't have a reset, he doesn't have sustain and his steroid isn't really an onhit, it's just an attack speed buff, and most importantly, he doesn't have tankiness (his melee hammer form is laughable in terms of tankiness. If you're building AD (which you should be), you're going to blow up just like every other squishy melee assassin, unless you time it correctly.) he interesting thing about him is though that he only has access to everything if he lines it up perfectly (so, if the situation allows him to switch forms and go in melee) Instead of all those things that I just mentioned, he has really strong ranged poke. In my eyes, he's a very interesting champion that is both fun to play and fun to watch.
The reset is if you kill with Q, not on kill. Massive difference, in a teamfight, it's not that often that you can afford to save Q for a couple of seconds to snipe a kill. If you mistime it at all, either too early or too late, it goes on CD and you're now out of position, regardless of the fact that you've killed the person.
Considering that he can build tear first and still survive & farm in almost every matchup, jayce doesn't need sustain. Sustain only matters if you take damage. Also with standard jayce build path, if muramana enhanced lightning fast auto attacks don't count as a steroid, I don't know what is. Over 2 seconds of auto attacking, he'll do as much or even more damage than most AD carries will if you animation cancel(W enhanced range form autos have a longer backswing animation than attack rate).
Tankiness is itemization related, he actually has higher armor/MR than irelia in melee form, and a whopping 36 less health at level 18. Just because his kit encourages building glass cannon doesn't mean he isn't actually tanky.
The whole irelia's kit does everything discussion is a relic from S2. A lot of newer champions have just as much, if not more shit shoved into their kits, it's just that Morello constantly maintained that irelia was in need of a rework because her kit did too much.
|
On June 08 2013 19:35 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 18:48 OutlaW- wrote:On June 08 2013 18:36 Amui wrote:
Irelia's design is a high mobility, auto attack based champion with high baseline teamfighting sustain. She fits that role better than almost every other champion in the game apart from maybe poppy. Her kit isn't supposed to compete with jayce for poke, nor is it supposed to compete with Zed for the 100% chance of gibbing a squishy.
What would be your definition of a "having everything" anyways? Jayce does basically everything irelia does apart from sustain, and gains the ability to wave clear without blowing a 1 minute CD. Gap closer, auto steroid(R, range W), strong ranged wave clear, more burst, a slow and a hard CC(both independant) and better laning. And he's not a problem while irelia is? He does have a lot, but he doesn't have as much as Irelia. He doesn't have a stun, he doesn't have a reset, he doesn't have sustain and his steroid isn't really an onhit, it's just an attack speed buff, and most importantly, he doesn't have tankiness (his melee hammer form is laughable in terms of tankiness. If you're building AD (which you should be), you're going to blow up just like every other squishy melee assassin, unless you time it correctly.) he interesting thing about him is though that he only has access to everything if he lines it up perfectly (so, if the situation allows him to switch forms and go in melee) Instead of all those things that I just mentioned, he has really strong ranged poke. In my eyes, he's a very interesting champion that is both fun to play and fun to watch. The reset is if you kill with Q, not on kill. Massive difference, in a teamfight, it's not that often that you can afford to save Q for a couple of seconds to snipe a kill. If you mistime it at all, either too early or too late, it goes on CD and you're now out of position, regardless of the fact that you've killed the person. Considering that he can build tear first and still survive & farm in almost every matchup, jayce doesn't need sustain. Sustain only matters if you take damage. Also with standard jayce build path, if muramana enhanced lightning fast auto attacks don't count as a steroid, I don't know what is. Over 2 seconds of auto attacking, he'll do as much or even more damage than most AD carries will if you animation cancel(W enhanced range form autos have a longer backswing animation than attack rate). Tankiness is itemization related, he actually has higher armor/MR than irelia in melee form, and a whopping 36 less health at level 18. Just because his kit encourages building glass cannon doesn't mean he isn't actually tanky. The whole irelia's kit does everything discussion is a relic from S2. A lot of newer champions have just as much, if not more shit shoved into their kits, it's just that Morello constantly maintained that irelia was in need of a rework because her kit did too much.
Honestly, I don't think Irelia's problem was ever that "she did too much." It's more that she has fucking +75 true damage on top of being impossible to cc in teamfights. Pre-nerf Irelia is basically just like pre-nerf Olaf. Unpeelable and unkillable with tons of damage that can't be mitigated.
|
On June 08 2013 17:06 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
are you guys seriously suggesting nerfing hourglass when its the league of jayce zed khazix and shit right now rofl
funny how people forget about diana, with hourglass she dumpsters on pretty much every one of them
|
Who cares about Irelia now anyways. It's all about pushing and wave-clearing something zed, kha'zix and jayce all excels at. Irelia is pretty much only good in a straight up 1v1 where has the opportunity to snow-ball the lane and then proceed with an advantage in a straight up 5v5. The 3 mentioned can also do this, but they just do other things aswell, and they're all 3 extremely good at making comebacks through excessive farming, something i personally don't see Irelia excel at.
|
On June 08 2013 18:13 ketchup wrote:
I don't quite get the Morello obsession. To think that everything wrong with this game came from Morello is really odd. I know it's the only name you guys have. I know it's easier to assign blame to one person rather than a team. It's still really just weird.
It's what people do.
In GW, we blamed Izzy for years, even after he was moved from the balance team to the live content team.
We still blamed him.
Blamed him good.
|
irelia isnt that great anymore, she always had bad wave clear and no escape mechanic, she isnt great as assasin her burst is average, as a bruiser shes ok but zac, rumble, diana do more in team fights
all she has is the fact shes immovable from top lane but even thats not true anymore all the nerf caused there are few nasty counters to her
|
Nobody was saying that she was strong or anything, we just talked about how bad her design was
|
On June 08 2013 20:10 OutlaW- wrote:
Nobody was saying that she was strong or anything, we just talked about how bad her design was
there are alot of "bad" designed champions in this game and irelia isnt even the most annoying nor strongest one why would u complain about her ?
|
I guess the most important part about Hourglass is how much AP it gives: it's about the price of DFG (160 more) and Deathcap (60 less), gives as much AP, 50 armour, and huge utility. Deathcap was nerfed to provide less damage so it's not the first stop anymore and it involves trade-offs, but it also means that pretty often the 50 or so AP more than it gives isn't as important (counter-case: you're a burst caster, typically ult-reliant/long cds, and there are no assassins out for you on the enemy team. Pretty rare case on both points with the current popular pool).
DFG has 10% CDR and the active instead. Those 10% aren't crucial when most of the popular APs use Morello or Grail anyway, and the active is associated, again, to a burst AP/assassin (single-target) while more often than not (*cough* Diana) if you're playing an AP champ atm your strengths lie in utility rather than damage.
If anything, don't nerf Hourglass (or target the AP so it competes with other utility/survivability items instead, like Rylai/RoA), buff Deathcap and don't touch DFG since it's more meta/FotM-reliant.
On June 08 2013 16:09 Seuss wrote:39 days since Lissandra was released and Aatrox is still missing in action. The previous post-launch record was Quinn at 37 days (ignoring the 53 day gap between launch and Udyr). The past four, in fact, have taken roughly a month, with most taking longer. + Show Spoiler [Numbers] +- Lissandra: 32 days
- Zac: 28 days
- Quinn: 37 days
- Thresh: 35 days
I think it's good for the game that champions are taking longer, but it's interesting that Riot started taking longer on champions without much word of warning.
Morello mentioned a day or two ago that the team responsible for skins and stuff is also responsible for visual reworks and new champions. Because they put a lot more work into skins and have had several VUs, and want to focus on that, they have to slow down on champ release because of resources, is basically what he said (and their choice too).
I'll try to make the part about Irelia, Zed, etc. short (edit: that's when you laugh, fuck) because I already know I mostly disagree with ClutZ and he and I have totally different focus on our pet peeves.
I think Olaf, Zed and Talon are interesting to watch/offer counterplay by nature, because you can't stop Olaf but he still needs to reach the his target: keeping track of his ult duration and good positioning can also allow to trap him, make it hard for him to pick up an axe, etc. and the simple fact that he lacks a gap closer (one of my pet peeves that you're not defined by having a gap closer but by not having one now) makes his laning that much more awkward.
Zed because he's got a lot of room for outplaying with the shadows and stuff, kinda like Lee. Talon because he has to watch his timing, the angle he comes from, how much the enemy team focuses on him, etc. to get his 1v1 situation in teamfights. Kha'Zix is uninteresting because he never has to plan a way out post-11: he pokes till you're low, jumps in, jumps out, while Talon has to kill (without having poke himself so either be farmed, or have your team poke for you) and be positioned correctly that he can disengage for his next CDs before he dies.
Irelia isn't really fun to watch, nor is Jax, but they have counterplay. They innately lack nuking power (they have burst, but not the 80-0 in 2s kind), have weak early laning, little shoving, and thus splitpushing, power (especially compared to 1v2/caster champs with the exception of Shen), and rely on a long cooldown.
Irelia's strong because Hiten Style's powercurve is basically that of a single-target burst caster. Super strong when it's close to maxed, then starts falling off. People don't seem to realise when they say "she has so much so her kit sucks" that it can be translated to "when he W is down she doesn't have much", she has huge vulnerabilities when that happens, and the latter the game goes, the more susceptible her target is to survive those 6 seconds, while she typically lacks outside damage (only building BotRK or triforce) after that.
(No, really. Kha'Zix or Zed have stronger 1v1/dps than her while being classified as assassins too, because they have shorter cooldowns (Kha) / stronger dps steroids (Zed's W) even if their target can survive the initial burst. And don't even try to pretend Jayce's ranged W is weaker than Hiten. At level 9 if you max them, yeah, sure, but once people get levels/items Jayce's actually scales. And sustain? She needs to auto to sustain, it's like Nasus. Akali, WW, Yorick, Kha have ranged sustain that doesn't push the wave if you take it that way.)
When it comes to champs having too much there are distinctions to make, I believe. Irelia had too much from a laning viewpoint, with the whole "sustain, damage, gap closer, cc" bit. She still has timings, heavy cooldown reliance, no way to poke, she falls off, needs her ult to shove real quick, etc. Rengar's closer to that.
Kha'Zix and Zed (and probably Diana and Jayce) have too much from a global point of view: excellent single-target burst combined with incidental AoE, good to godlike poke, gap closers, cc (though limited to slows for 2 of them), excellent 1v1 and teamfighting, good shoving/splitpushing/tower-killing capabilities, and either tankiness (Diana) or disengage (the rest). They don't even have a clearcut role because they are so versatile, you even sometimes see Zed initiate because his team can exploit the chaos his ult creates to follow-up and swarm. They also have 0K to excellent pre-6 laning and excellent scaling even into the late game.
So, talking about "Irelia has too much" is sort of ignoring the issues currently at hand in favor of the past ones—top lane power creep. Notice how we don't even talk about "top lane" anymore because those champs are able to go to several of them and also 1v2 if needed?
I agree that she has "bad design" in that she isn't exciting to watch (I like playing her, there's outplaying potential and stuff but it's not flashy because it relies more on planning, creep management and playing around cooldowns, compared to Zed/Kha'Zix), and that she lacks the "cool"/non-generic aspect abilities like Zilean's ult have, but from a working/playing standpoint it really isn't as bad as a lot of recent shit.
|
On June 08 2013 20:24 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 20:10 OutlaW- wrote:
Nobody was saying that she was strong or anything, we just talked about how bad her design was there are alot of "bad" designed champions in this game and irelia isnt even the most annoying nor strongest one why would u complain about her ?
Why not?
|
All my loss in the last 3 days were to nidalees.
No exception.
I find this character a little tad bit strong atm.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
