[Patch 3.07: Nerf Everything Not Nami] General Discussion…

On June 07 2013 02:54 Sufficiency wrote:
I think you guys should listen to this guy on Annie: http://www.lolpro.com/guides/annie/329-annie-build-guide-mid-lane-by-damionwings/author-skins

On June 07 2013 02:55 bmn wrote:


You won't teach anyone any lesson. You'll actually only validate them: going afk will prove to them that their flaming was spot-on and you really were a jerk all along, so they'll be even more assertive and self-righteous next time around.

They don't care about elo as much as ego, and you're feeding their ego by playing along. Just mute them and play your game.

On June 07 2013 02:51 jcarlsoniv wrote:


Not sure if I'm playing a completely different game than you guys...

I've always maxed W and have always had enormous success in lane. I definitely see the appeal of Q max, but W has always worked for me.

I also haven't considered E max second with liandry + rylai, that sounds super fun. But also tankier than I care to be (I already build RoA on her, so getting Rylai seems like too much defense).

On June 07 2013 02:58 TheYango wrote:

One of peoples' traditional complaints with teamfighting with Annie is that engaging with her low range is awkward once you hit the point where you can't burst someone out of the fight. While the remake improved her scaling, her general power curve is still that of a burst caster early-midgame that transitions into a more supportive usefulness lategame. Because of this, I think a path of item development that gets early offensive stats to maximize her burst, and then transitions later into more defensive stats/CDR to support her teamfight control with repeated stuns seems to suit her power curve best. RoA seems to do the opposite of this because it's an item that doesn't reach it's peak offensive power until fully charged.

Liandry's fits her very well, IMO, because as an item, the Guise buildup suits a champ that needs early-level burst potential, that transitions into supplementary %-HP damage lategame when you buy Rylai's and get the Guise upgrade.

The most awkward points/questions to answer I can think of for this are:
1) What CDR sources are most suitable for Annie?
2) What burst damage AP items are strong at the 1-1.5 major item timing that Annie needs to maximize her burst damage in?
3) What defensive items are most suitable for making the transition in the level 12-14 range when Molten Shield isn't maxed yet?


I think the initial scenario that I devised the 3Q->5W skill order for was vs. Kassadin, but practically speaking it applies to other champs that have similar CDs in the 8-10 second range.

Basically Kassadin effectively blocks your ability to engage with QW combos because Null Sphere has a range advantage over Disintegrate and proper animation canceling blocks your ability to combo both spells before a silence intervenes between them. If you are simply trading Q for Q or Q for W, Kassadin comes out ahead because of his passive, and the rest is him not eating too much free autoattack damage.

The low CD on Q lets you catch a 4-5 second range after any trade where you can threaten with it and they can't retaliate because their core engagement skill is still on CD.

On June 07 2013 03:10 jcarlsoniv wrote:
People always pick Kass to counter pick my Annie, but I almost never have issues with it. Unless I really slip up, I usually do just fun. This could just be an experience > counter pick thing though. Maybe someone who plays as much Kass as I do Annie would easily beat me, I just may not have found someone like that yet.

On June 07 2013 03:10 jcarlsoniv wrote:
My skill order/item build is just what works for me. If people have more success with Yango's build, that's awesome. Mine is just developed off of ~100 games of experience this season instead of the theory/math craft, even though Yango's posts make my way of doing things seem inferior.

On June 07 2013 03:14 TheYango wrote:

I should point out the inception of this was a long time ago, prior to the Null Sphere range nerf. That specific matchup actually isn't a good example anymore because with 650 range Null Sphere, I don't think there's an advantage anymore. I was just using it as an example because it's the one that made most sense to me initially. The concept applies to any champ that trades with a CD in the 8-10 second range that can trade better/evenly with Incinerate, but cannot trade into the 2nd Disintegrate CD at 4 seconds.

If that's the way I came off, then I'm sorry. A lot of this is still unfleshed out (as indicated by the 3 questions I posed), and I was just merely positing something based on my understanding of Annie's kit as it exists right now.

If anything, I think it would be good if you had any potential answers to the 3 questions.

On June 07 2013 02:59 jcarlsoniv wrote:


A few weeks ago I queued into this guy. I was first pick and grabbed Annie. He flamed me hard. I carried him...HARD

Felt good man.

On June 07 2013 03:21 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Fairly certain he still does have a Q range advantage, which is always super annoying. I could just be bad though.

On June 07 2013 03:52 Vanka wrote:
Just take ad runes vs. Kass? (and the flat ad masteries if you're going 21/0/9). You have 600 aa range, you'll bully him out of lane on that alone. Hell, sometimes I go doran's blade doran's ring vs kass instead of 2x rings.

Damn this is old school lol, I remember when I started playing annie in season 1, the guides I looked up at lvl 20 debated whether q max or w max was right. W gives you more burst in every scenario, though if you can get another q off (not likely) you'll even it out.

leveling e will reduce your burst a lot, but do not, do not underestimate the free resists. If you're playing aggressive annie, you're going to run into the jungler sometime, and having a point in e will change you from a squishy champ to being surprisingly tanky, especially early on. 20 armor + armor yellows makes it much much harder for the jungler to kill you. If you're playing for the level 6 kill though, you don't really need it as much.

On June 07 2013 04:00 Diamond wrote:
Tried Diamondprox style jungle eve last night. SOOOOOOOO strong. Had a game where we were getting ROFLstomped (like our top lane was 0-9 at 12 mins), and still ended the game 10-6-1 almost turning the game around multiple times. Going to have to do more with this, that burn from Lizard Elder is so nasty with Hate Spike.

On June 07 2013 03:54 Frolossus wrote:

why do people claim its unlikely to get another Q off?
you lead with Q, then tibbers then W and Q again as they run
not difficult
if you can't manage that for whatever reason just Q them once as you are charging up your stun instead of on a minion before you go for the kill

On June 07 2013 04:06 Vanka wrote:


If you lead in with q, it's easily flashable due to travel time of q, and you telegraph yourself pretty obviously when you're walking forward with a stun. That's the main reason people lead with tibbers. Annie's stun is 1.75 seconds, if you're going in for the surprise flash kill, they're going to flash after R-Q-W, and you won't get the second q off, whereas if you max w, you'll do more damage and more likely to kill them after they flash with ignite on them and a parting auto thrown their way. If their flash is down, then it's a different story of course.

On June 07 2013 04:02 jcarlsoniv wrote:


See, the thing with eve jungle isn't that it's amazingly good. It's just the simple fact that it's Eve. She forces every single enemy laner to play like a massive pussy, waste so much money on pink wards, and just gives your team a massive edge in lane by the simple virtue that you're Eve. That's it. There's nothing that redeeming about her otherwise.

On June 07 2013 04:06 Vanka wrote:


If you lead in with q, it's easily flashable due to travel time of q, and you telegraph yourself pretty obviously when you're walking forward with a stun. That's the main reason people lead with tibbers. Annie's stun is 1.75 seconds, if you're going in for the surprise flash kill, they're going to flash after R-Q-W, and you won't get the second q off, whereas if you max w, you'll do more damage and more likely to kill them after they flash with ignite on them and a parting auto thrown their way. If their flash is down, then it's a different story of course.

On June 07 2013 04:10 jcarlsoniv wrote:


To be honest, burning your Q stun to "telegraph what you're doing" and getting a flash isn't terrible. If you know they might flash your Q stun, then just hold onto tibbers. If they don't flash and you still think they might, walk up and W. Then rinse repeat on next stun. Eventually, they will HAVE to flash. Then it's easy pickings.

On June 07 2013 04:14 Frolossus wrote:

you could also Q them at 3 stacks or w/e then flash onto them and tibbers/w for the stun in the middle and easily secure the follow up Q