On April 07 2013 12:29 Cloud9157 wrote: So after looking at lolking recently...
After Janna+Sona, Fiddles has the highest win rate. I don't even have the words to express that.
Wukong still quietly creeping up in win %. Now at 53.6.%.
Most shocking surprise is Rammus at 53%+. I forgot there was even a champion called Rammus.
All of these champs have AoE ults too. Press R meta will never leave this game.
Problem is I don't see how people don't just invade Fiddlesticks and take his blue. Hell, even if he gets blue, just camp his red buff and wait for him. Then just murder him because he dies in like 2 hits anyway.
Wukong's laning is so meh. Then again, he is literally the equivalent to Akali. You can shut him down all you want, but once he gets BC/BT, his team fight is terrifying, much like Akali gets her first item and murders people.
Most fiddles I see are support fiddle. Fiddle does tons of damage with ult+drain without any items and he has a shitton of cc to boot.
On April 07 2013 13:06 Dusty wrote:
On April 07 2013 12:41 sylverfyre wrote:
On April 07 2013 11:51 TheYango wrote: Why would you buy Zhonya's vs. Zed instead of QSS though as an AD (QSS also removes the ult)? Like, sure, the MR isn't useful vs. Zed, but buying 700 gold worth of MR is less of a waste than 2400 gold worth of AP.
This, unless you're like... Varus? Maybe?
MF has... nonzero AP ratios?
IDK. QSS 99% Of the time.
QSS builds into mercurial
Zhonyas arguably has more utility as it can completely nullifies stuff like Karthus Ult, can dodge stuff like Blitzcrank grabs.
The issue isn't what has more utility. The issue is that if you buy a Zhonyas on an AD carry you're throwing away 2.4k worth of gold on a stat that is next to worthless.
It's one item for survivability.
In many cases a QSS isn't going to let you live against a Zed or a Khazix. Warmogs might. In the cases Warmogs doesn't, how is Zhonyas worse even if you "waste" 2400 gold worth of AP? The active isn't worth just 100 gold or whatever your calculations make it out to be. The active can be the thing that keeps you alive when no other item would(apart from GA?). GA indeed is worse than Zhonyas in the case their whole team dives you and you can do nothing about it.
How does Cass ult vs Kat ult work? Does she "spin" during it so that your ult only has 50% chance to stun, or does it check if you're facing her / facing away from her for a large enough window that it will register the stun either way? Or does Kat just face the same direction that she did when she started the ult and it's all just an animation?
I'm pretty sure it's just an animation and the internal "facing" variable is unchanged.
On April 07 2013 12:29 Cloud9157 wrote: So after looking at lolking recently...
After Janna+Sona, Fiddles has the highest win rate. I don't even have the words to express that.
Wukong still quietly creeping up in win %. Now at 53.6.%.
Most shocking surprise is Rammus at 53%+. I forgot there was even a champion called Rammus.
All of these champs have AoE ults too. Press R meta will never leave this game.
Problem is I don't see how people don't just invade Fiddlesticks and take his blue. Hell, even if he gets blue, just camp his red buff and wait for him. Then just murder him because he dies in like 2 hits anyway.
Wukong's laning is so meh. Then again, he is literally the equivalent to Akali. You can shut him down all you want, but once he gets BC/BT, his team fight is terrifying, much like Akali gets her first item and murders people.
Most fiddles I see are support fiddle. Fiddle does tons of damage with ult+drain without any items and he has a shitton of cc to boot.
On April 07 2013 13:06 Dusty wrote:
On April 07 2013 12:41 sylverfyre wrote:
On April 07 2013 11:51 TheYango wrote: Why would you buy Zhonya's vs. Zed instead of QSS though as an AD (QSS also removes the ult)? Like, sure, the MR isn't useful vs. Zed, but buying 700 gold worth of MR is less of a waste than 2400 gold worth of AP.
This, unless you're like... Varus? Maybe?
MF has... nonzero AP ratios?
IDK. QSS 99% Of the time.
QSS builds into mercurial
Zhonyas arguably has more utility as it can completely nullifies stuff like Karthus Ult, can dodge stuff like Blitzcrank grabs.
The issue isn't what has more utility. The issue is that if you buy a Zhonyas on an AD carry you're throwing away 2.4k worth of gold on a stat that is next to worthless.
That 2.4k gold for the active can be more than worth it depending on the game. Sure, you shouldn't be getting it every single game but to dismiss it because it has 2.4k gold of bloated stats for an AD carry? Come on, it's an option, at the very least.
Or you can use that 3.2k gold for a QSS (1.6k) and a Giants belt.
On April 07 2013 12:29 Cloud9157 wrote: So after looking at lolking recently...
After Janna+Sona, Fiddles has the highest win rate. I don't even have the words to express that.
Wukong still quietly creeping up in win %. Now at 53.6.%.
Most shocking surprise is Rammus at 53%+. I forgot there was even a champion called Rammus.
All of these champs have AoE ults too. Press R meta will never leave this game.
Problem is I don't see how people don't just invade Fiddlesticks and take his blue. Hell, even if he gets blue, just camp his red buff and wait for him. Then just murder him because he dies in like 2 hits anyway.
Wukong's laning is so meh. Then again, he is literally the equivalent to Akali. You can shut him down all you want, but once he gets BC/BT, his team fight is terrifying, much like Akali gets her first item and murders people.
Most fiddles I see are support fiddle. Fiddle does tons of damage with ult+drain without any items and he has a shitton of cc to boot.
On April 07 2013 13:06 Dusty wrote:
On April 07 2013 12:41 sylverfyre wrote:
On April 07 2013 11:51 TheYango wrote: Why would you buy Zhonya's vs. Zed instead of QSS though as an AD (QSS also removes the ult)? Like, sure, the MR isn't useful vs. Zed, but buying 700 gold worth of MR is less of a waste than 2400 gold worth of AP.
This, unless you're like... Varus? Maybe?
MF has... nonzero AP ratios?
IDK. QSS 99% Of the time.
QSS builds into mercurial
Zhonyas arguably has more utility as it can completely nullifies stuff like Karthus Ult, can dodge stuff like Blitzcrank grabs.
The issue isn't what has more utility. The issue is that if you buy a Zhonyas on an AD carry you're throwing away 2.4k worth of gold on a stat that is next to worthless.
That 2.4k gold for the active can be more than worth it depending on the game. Sure, you shouldn't be getting it every single game but to dismiss it because it has 2.4k gold of bloated stats for an AD carry? Come on, it's an option, at the very least.
Or you can use that 3.2k gold for a QSS (1.6k) and a Giants belt.
Then there's the question of slot efficiency
Also, consider Hourglass gives armor versus QSS which gives MR. I'd advocate going one over the other depending on the damage type you were really scared of. On the other hand, I find it hard to see when an Hourglass would be really useful on an AD. You're supposed to be at the backline, and if you've been successfully doven/dived, well, going into stasis might keep you alive for then, but its a 4v5 while the active is up.
Actually Mercurial is a pretty nice item, so probably go QSS except in some super niche circumstances.
So about the whole Allstars voting thing...wouldn't it be extremely smart for NA to go on the EU site and just vote for the "shitty" players in hopes they win? I mean, yeah people want to see the best of the best, but fuck EU, I'd rather see another NA team get a spot in the finals.
On April 07 2013 15:07 SidianTheBard wrote: So about the whole Allstars voting thing...wouldn't it be extremely smart for NA to go on the EU site and just vote for the "shitty" players in hopes they win? I mean, yeah people want to see the best of the best, but fuck EU, I'd rather see another NA team get a spot in the finals.
We need the EU people to knock out some asians if we are to have any chance at all.
Real answer: we care more about seeing good games than getting our region an extra spot.
On April 07 2013 14:18 Bwaaaa wrote: So what is the verdict on rumble's reworked ult? Nerf or Buff?
Numbers wise it's a buff if people stand in the ult for the full duration, but the upfront burst is lower. So in most situations still a nerf, but not as big of one as it originally seemed to be.
I believe that the main problem with Rumble anyway is the new item pool, namely how well Llandry's works with Rylais and his Q. Get hit by it once -> you're at half hp even with some mres.
Also stuck at computer that runs at around 30 fps on lowest settings, spiking to like 5-10 FPS during big fights. What do? Maybe I can now learn to concentrate on getting good gamesense for winning games because my mechanics are going to suck.
On April 07 2013 15:07 SidianTheBard wrote: So about the whole Allstars voting thing...wouldn't it be extremely smart for NA to go on the EU site and just vote for the "shitty" players in hopes they win? I mean, yeah people want to see the best of the best, but fuck EU, I'd rather see another NA team get a spot in the finals.
Why bother? The EG army is doing your work for you.
On April 07 2013 15:07 SidianTheBard wrote: So about the whole Allstars voting thing...wouldn't it be extremely smart for NA to go on the EU site and just vote for the "shitty" players in hopes they win? I mean, yeah people want to see the best of the best, but fuck EU, I'd rather see another NA team get a spot in the finals.
You have to be strategic about it. Can't just vote for Giants, gotta go like EG + ocelote.
On April 07 2013 15:07 ticklishmusic wrote: Then there's the question of slot efficiency
Also, consider Hourglass gives armor versus QSS which gives MR. I'd advocate going one over the other depending on the damage type you were really scared of. On the other hand, I find it hard to see when an Hourglass would be really useful on an AD. You're supposed to be at the backline, and if you've been successfully doven/dived, well, going into stasis might keep you alive for then, but its a 4v5 while the active is up.
Actually Mercurial is a pretty nice item, so probably go QSS except in some super niche circumstances.
Warden's + QSS -> Randuin + Mercurial. 1.5 slots worth of rounded defensive stats, slot efficient, and cost-efficient.
On April 07 2013 15:07 ticklishmusic wrote: Then there's the question of slot efficiency
Also, consider Hourglass gives armor versus QSS which gives MR. I'd advocate going one over the other depending on the damage type you were really scared of. On the other hand, I find it hard to see when an Hourglass would be really useful on an AD. You're supposed to be at the backline, and if you've been successfully doven/dived, well, going into stasis might keep you alive for then, but its a 4v5 while the active is up.
Actually Mercurial is a pretty nice item, so probably go QSS except in some super niche circumstances.
Warden's + QSS -> Randuin + Mercurial. 1.5 slots worth of rounded defensive stats, slot efficient, and cost-efficient.
That still feels like a lot of defense to be stacking on someone who is supposed to be a damage dealer (emphasis on the world feel).
I can see the usefulness in soloQ where things are uncoordinated and you have to depend on yourself to stay alive, but in arranged play I think your team should be enough to peel from you, with one item (preferably mercurial or maybe just go plain out GA/warmog's) to catch the leaks. Mercurial gives a big hunk of AD, but if you're going 1.5-2 defense items your DPS is going to be significantly lower.
I'm going to just use Ashe for an example. Core items on an AD are usually BT, LW, IE, PD, Zerker's, which gives her an effective 730 DPS against a 150 armor target. Swiching out BT for Mercurial decreases your DPS to 650, and switching out LW decreases your DPS to 590. On the other hand, switching it for boots increases it to 840, but taking away boots is kind of an iffy idea.
For lategame with 2 surviv items you have 3 slots for dmg items. LW and lifesteal are basically necessary, so if you go BT + LW your last item is either PD(you deal no dmg) or IE(no aspd).
I don't think that it is in general viable to go for 2 survivability items. If you're crushing and way ahead, they can't 1v1 you anyway.
Also, of course Zhonyas would be a lategame item, when else would you buy survivability on an ADC?
On April 07 2013 06:54 kainzero wrote:i'm talking about solo queue.
i don't mind playing support with friends. you get real-time feedback over voicechat from what they want to do or what you want to do, you can move in sync and by putting yourself in certain positions relative to your AD carry where you both become a very strong threat that can engage quickly or poke decisively.
For some reason, though everyone knows this on an intellectual level and will even say it out loud, people don't adjust their play for it. And it basically ONLY works this way on support. There's obviously way less synergy between jungle/mid or jungle/top in a solo queue environment as well, but people don't try to make the same high-precision plays in those cases.
There is a ton of information available from a support's perspective in solo queue that goes completely unused. I can almost always figure out if my AD will follow or not well before I want to all-in, just from watching him move around, auto attack, and spend mana in lane. You can also figure out other things, generally long before it's too late to do anything about it. Do you need to build tanky and zone hard (as opposed to engaging)? Max a heal/shield in a lane that's normally highly aggressive? Choke off vision with pinks, tank skillshots for your AD and pray? I mean, it sucks when you pick Leona and your AD won't follow you in, but you really should be able to figure that out long before you feed first blood. And then, even though you're on Leona, there are plenty of things that are obviously not optimal in a vacuum you can do to try to save the lane.
I guess you can look at it as a "fuck solo queue" kind of thing, but honestly, it's much more productive to apply the usual "given solo queue, how should I play this differently" logic that you do from EVERY OTHER POSITION. Seems like this particular skill is at least as important as basic warding knowledge and jungle timings if you're going to play support in solo queue.
On April 07 2013 07:15 ticklishmusic wrote:yeah, map control also helps you ward. for example, if you win bot lane and take tower as blue for example, you can drop a ward by their blue, which basically gives you vision and control over half (okay, maybe a third) of their jungle. combine that with a ward in the brush by the other mid entrance, and you've got that side on lockdown.
I generally try to ward in a sort of expanding concentric ring. It's much safer to ward deeper if you venture out before your shallow wards expire.
On April 07 2013 16:34 Shikyo wrote: For lategame with 2 surviv items you have 3 slots for dmg items. LW and lifesteal are basically necessary, so if you go BT + LW your last item is either PD(you deal no dmg) or IE(no aspd).
I don't think that it is in general viable to go for 2 survivability items. If you're crushing and way ahead, they can't 1v1 you anyway.
Also, of course Zhonyas would be a lategame item, when else would you buy survivability on an ADC?
I think theoretically it is best to just have a teammate build Zekes Herald and get you lifesteal while you builds IE+PD+LW.
I actually dont really understand why people dont buy Zekes.
It costs 2550 gold, which I guess is a fair bit, but the 20 AD and 10% lifesteal worth prolly half the item itself. Its not even like it doesn't give wanted stats for lots of champions. AD casters/assassins super popular, and they ALL want HP, AD, Lifesteal, and CDR. Not nearly as cost efficient as say Aegis, Locket, or Randuins. I dunno, I can't even recall the last time I've seena zekes.
I can't remember the last game I played that didn't have a Xin, Panth, Khazix, J4, Renekton, Lee, or Zed in it. All of those champs would build Zekes and love it midgame. It has literally all the stats they want except maybe Armor pen.
On April 07 2013 16:34 Shikyo wrote: For lategame with 2 surviv items you have 3 slots for dmg items. LW and lifesteal are basically necessary, so if you go BT + LW your last item is either PD(you deal no dmg) or IE(no aspd).
I don't think that it is in general viable to go for 2 survivability items. If you're crushing and way ahead, they can't 1v1 you anyway.
Also, of course Zhonyas would be a lategame item, when else would you buy survivability on an ADC?
You're ignoring the fact that in the double survival items, Merc Scimitar is 60 AD. BT PD LW MercScim is definitely not "you deal no damage."
Besides, if you're going 2x survive items it's usually because the enemy team is very assassination oriented, and are therefore squisher than the average team.
Kinda surprised frozen mallet didnt pop up in discussion - easily my current favorite anti-burst ADC item. Smooth enough of a buildpath for late game ADC
On April 07 2013 15:07 ticklishmusic wrote: Then there's the question of slot efficiency
Also, consider Hourglass gives armor versus QSS which gives MR. I'd advocate going one over the other depending on the damage type you were really scared of. On the other hand, I find it hard to see when an Hourglass would be really useful on an AD. You're supposed to be at the backline, and if you've been successfully doven/dived, well, going into stasis might keep you alive for then, but its a 4v5 while the active is up.
Actually Mercurial is a pretty nice item, so probably go QSS except in some super niche circumstances.
Warden's + QSS -> Randuin + Mercurial. 1.5 slots worth of rounded defensive stats, slot efficient, and cost-efficient.
That still feels like a lot of defense to be stacking on someone who is supposed to be a damage dealer (emphasis on the world feel).
I can see the usefulness in soloQ where things are uncoordinated and you have to depend on yourself to stay alive, but in arranged play I think your team should be enough to peel from you, with one item (preferably mercurial or maybe just go plain out GA/warmog's) to catch the leaks. Mercurial gives a big hunk of AD, but if you're going 1.5-2 defense items your DPS is going to be significantly lower.
I'm going to just use Ashe for an example. Core items on an AD are usually BT, LW, IE, PD, Zerker's, which gives her an effective 730 DPS against a 150 armor target. Swiching out BT for Mercurial decreases your DPS to 650, and switching out LW decreases your DPS to 590. On the other hand, switching it for boots increases it to 840, but taking away boots is kind of an iffy idea.
I skurred of return to 5 bruiser meta too. ._.
The "debate" if we can even call it that, is Zhonyas v. QSS+1k other defense item on AD.
Zhonyas does absolutely nothing for an AD carry except for the 50 armor and the active. Whereas QSS+Warden's gives 50 armor, 45 mr, and the active PLUS it's not a dead item item path.
Zhonyas on AD carries is stupid. Period. Maybe good for trolling.
EPT
