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On April 07 2013 10:17 Alaric wrote:
I don't know which spell he used (E or R) but a Zac I stunned under the tower with Cass' ult kept moving toward me.
Oh, he just did it again. If you stun Zac during his ult, he'll keep on moving. Not just vertically, but horizontally as well (he went out of the turret range like that). Strange.
Edit: to be clearer, he has 75% Tenacity during his ult (what kind of bullshit is that? O_o), but even during the cc, he'll keep moving.
I think I'll start hating on that champ, just because he's stomping all over Olaf's niche of "build tanky and rely on base damage and CC immunity to dive their team", except he has gap closers, cc, and initiation power on top of it. Poor Olaf has been raped hard enough as is with the ult and Q nerfs, no need to worsen it with a champ that fulfills his role better in every domain 'cept for early/midgame burst. :<
This reminds me so much of the stealth rework dilemma. Not verbatim, but from Riot:
"We really didn't like how abusive stealth was, so we tried to make it unique to champions like Eve and Twitch, making the element fun, while fairly balanced."
They then released two stealth champions in the next three champions in Rengar+Kha6. It is the exact same with Olaf, as you mentioned.
They should really go back and give the older champions free shit. Udyr gains movement speed with passive+bear? Ok, we'll give Zac 3 "jumps" with increased movement speed in his ult, all while giving him tenacity.
Zac also reminds me of botrk. Riot really needs to hire one guy that can just say "that is a lot of free shit".
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Well, even though that one was fed, he also reminded me of Katarina and Elise (and in retrospect Ahri too, somewhat). Not in the assassin's department, but in what is wrong with giving champs too high base damage: they'll just build tanky and kill people by themselves, even if they aren't supposed to do that. Elise and Katarina aren't supposed to retain their assassin feel if they don't build damage, but they were (still is for Elise, dunno for Kat) the most effective damage-wise when built like that.
Zac isn't supposed to deal heavy damage past the early stages where everyone has no defensive stats (the way Mao, Amumu, Malph, Naut, etc. don't—even release Naut didn't unless building stuff like Wit's), but he can still build full tank (that one had mercs, sunfire, SV, warmogs, so no damage at all, not even sorcs/guise) and deal ludicrous damage, not only to squishies, but to the whole team due to the full AoE and incredibly high base damage on his kit, combined with low cooldowns to also make it sustained.
(His ult still slows during the bounces past the first, and he gains MS so you can't escape him without some kind of dash—the MS buff is enough that even if you flash, if you do it at the end of a bounce he'll still hit you with the following; if you have no tenacity/slow reduction that is. Eh, I wish Wukong's MS buff during his ult was actually noticeable in game.)
I was considering buying him because the "unkillable and disruptive" is my kind of champ (hard-farmed Shen, Mundo, Udyr, etc.) but I'll just feel like I'm jumping the OP release bandwagon if I do that. :/ Guess I'll wait till he's nerfed and see how I like his state then.
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On April 06 2013 01:27 Mondeezy wrote:
I think assassin's are fine - they require a lot of team coordination to shut down, which can be a nightmare for solo queue, but you DO give up a lot for that insta-gib power. Also note that there are a couple of items that practically make them useless (zhonya,GA) if used correctly.
I feel like players in soloQ will just pick whatever they want though instead of picking a lineup to shut out the assassin and practically make the game a 5v4. I remember playing vs a Kayle/Zil/Janna comp, holy crap talk about feeling useless as Zed.
While they are strong, it's just a different skillset that has to be dealt with a different way.
Edit: Then again I could be biased because almost all of my mains are high mobility damage dealers..
I know this moves fast, but I'm the same.
Akali, Zed, Kha'zix, Diana, all some of my most played and favourite champs. Even Evelynn pre nerf. However you can be shut down so easily by items, Zhonya's hourglass for Zed, oracles and proper carry defense for Akali, Diana you have to burst her quick since she isn't that hard to hit and will usually be an initiator, since her damage is good in a sustained amount of Q-R throughout the fight only as long as she is in the fight. Kha'zix is a bit harder to stop, but he doesn't deal that wtf damage in one go so I will pick him going into a team that is hard to burst and vulnerable to a few W pokes before I jump in. He's great for chasing too, I pick him when the team has multiple escapes like Ezreal or any carries with mobility since I can stop them from running away so easily.
I like the way assassins fit into the meta and I don't think that there is a problem with them. It takes a bit to shut them down and stop them, but with correct team comps, itemization and protecting vital members in teamfights you can actually quite efficiently stop them. I think players will improve at this as they get more used to champions like Zed who has only recently got popular (I wish he hadn't as he is probably in line for a nerf soon, probably on his W passive or ult to scale his late game insta-gib back a bit).
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It's just power creep, except I don't think riot actually recognizes it as such.
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Zhonyas Hourglass is so good against Zed I think that ADCs should be buying that as their survivability item against him. Likely more useful than GA ... Of course I've bought Hourglass on Khazix and such so take that with a grain of salt.
Also, watching asian LoL I'm quite impressed with Wx always having ~10cs/min, in like every single no matter what.
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United States47024 Posts
Why would you buy Zhonya's vs. Zed instead of QSS though as an AD (QSS also removes the ult)? Like, sure, the MR isn't useful vs. Zed, but buying 700 gold worth of MR is less of a waste than 2400 gold worth of AP.
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I know I'm going to get a lot of crap for this but Zed is pretty knife edge, I actually think he is balanced.
I just think counter play to assassins is mostly misunderstood. (and they are disproportionately strong in solo since they excel at teams not coordinating as opposed to other roles.)
apr.6 eu lcs
+ Show Spoiler +I think it's really funny that people don't play malz in solo q for the same reason that Zed is strong in solo q. when EG ran Malz today you saw 2 second item QSS on GG, in solo q people run zed and ADC still wait till last item to get their wardens/qss/ga you just don't get to do that if the assassin is winning lane.
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On April 07 2013 11:51 TheYango wrote:
Why would you buy Zhonya's vs. Zed instead of QSS though as an AD (QSS also removes the ult)? Like, sure, the MR isn't useful vs. Zed, but buying 700 gold worth of MR is less of a waste than 2400 gold worth of AP.
Not to mention the other bruiser/assassin that just murders you after you use the active.
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also Zed HAS to use living shadow to trade well/harass in lane (unless his opponent is just bad) he's actually fairly easy to camp pre 6 if he's not just having a farm session.
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On April 07 2013 07:42 OhTwoMise wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 06:54 kainzero wrote:i'm talking about solo queue.
i don't mind playing support with friends. you get real-time feedback over voicechat from what they want to do or what you want to do, you can move in sync and by putting yourself in certain positions relative to your AD carry where you both become a very strong threat that can engage quickly or poke decisively. For some reason, though everyone knows this on an intellectual level and will even say it out loud, people don't adjust their play for it. And it basically ONLY works this way on support. There's obviously way less synergy between jungle/mid or jungle/top in a solo queue environment as well, but people don't try to make the same high-precision plays in those cases. There is a ton of information available from a support's perspective in solo queue that goes completely unused. I can almost always figure out if my AD will follow or not well before I want to all-in, just from watching him move around, auto attack, and spend mana in lane. You can also figure out other things, generally long before it's too late to do anything about it. Do you need to build tanky and zone hard (as opposed to engaging)? Max a heal/shield in a lane that's normally highly aggressive? Choke off vision with pinks, tank skillshots for your AD and pray? I mean, it sucks when you pick Leona and your AD won't follow you in, but you really should be able to figure that out long before you feed first blood. And then, even though you're on Leona, there are plenty of things that are obviously not optimal in a vacuum you can do to try to save the lane. I guess you can look at it as a "fuck solo queue" kind of thing, but honestly, it's much more productive to apply the usual "given solo queue, how should I play this differently" logic that you do from EVERY OTHER POSITION. Seems like this particular skill is at least as important as basic warding knowledge and jungle timings if you're going to play support in solo queue.
rather than "make the best of solo queue" i just choose not to play solo queue. the frustration of playing support solo queue comes down to the fact that there is a lot of skill that i would like to develop as support is just not possible in that atmosphere.
i do agree that reading your teammate's tells (and your opponent's tells) are good skills to have, perhaps one of the more underrated skills to have. whenever a jungler tells me to bait a fight i usually know exactly how to do it, by pretending to step in too close for a last hit or by pretending to make a very poor trade, using my knowledge of their reactions built up in laning phase.
then when i'm the jungler and i ask someone to bait they just charge in.
as for janna she's still good. i just don't think she fits a lot of the current trendy team comps which is why i'm theorizing that she's not seen at the top level as often
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On April 07 2013 12:07 Slusher wrote:
also Zed HAS to use living shadow to trade well/harass in lane (unless his opponent is just bad) he's actually fairly easy to camp pre 6 if he's not just having a farm session.
Almost all of my deaths with Zed in lane are when I use W to farm and the jungler pops up and CC's me. I should probably buy wards....
Edit:
Janna is seen pretty often recently though since the buff/fix. I just watched Dioud of AAA play her great and she's seen play in NA recently too.
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So after looking at lolking recently...
After Janna+Sona, Fiddles has the highest win rate. I don't even have the words to express that.
Wukong still quietly creeping up in win %. Now at 53.6.%.
Most shocking surprise is Rammus at 53%+. I forgot there was even a champion called Rammus.
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On April 07 2013 12:29 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after looking at lolking recently...
After Janna+Sona, Fiddles has the highest win rate. I don't even have the words to express that.
Wukong still quietly creeping up in win %. Now at 53.6.%.
Most shocking surprise is Rammus at 53%+. I forgot there was even a champion called Rammus.
Still wishin' & hopin' that Cyanide's gonna bust out Rammus in the LCS versus, say, Giants.
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pretty sure he did one week and got owned lol, but Rammus is actually a decent pick when you have solo lanes as strong as Fanatc
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And maybe soaz will play Irelia again. Or maybe fanatic will run Brand top+Karthus mid like the good ol' days.
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On April 07 2013 12:29 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after looking at lolking recently...
After Janna+Sona, Fiddles has the highest win rate. I don't even have the words to express that.
Wukong still quietly creeping up in win %. Now at 53.6.%.
Most shocking surprise is Rammus at 53%+. I forgot there was even a champion called Rammus.
I'm surprised by Sona. Fiddle doesn't surprise me though, his fear and silence is so obnoxious and a good ult can decimate a team. 0 skillshots on a champ with fear, silence, life drain and AOE constant ult like Karthus defile.
Wukong will always have something to bring to a teamfight with his ult which is comparable to a Malphite ult but with consistently more damage.
I think Rammus has a good win-rate since in solo queue Rammus can just taunt the AD and win the teamfight, similar to Nasus wither and Shen taunt quite easily, and his ganks are pretty damn good still. I wouldn't be suprised to see a Rammus in the LCS pretty soon, in fact I think it would be pretty likely, although his teamfight presence in 5v5 is limited due to proper kiting a pick team could run him successfully, imagine Lux, Elise etc with a Rammus.
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On April 07 2013 11:51 TheYango wrote:
Why would you buy Zhonya's vs. Zed instead of QSS though as an AD (QSS also removes the ult)? Like, sure, the MR isn't useful vs. Zed, but buying 700 gold worth of MR is less of a waste than 2400 gold worth of AP.
This, unless you're like... Varus? Maybe?
MF has... nonzero AP ratios?
IDK. QSS 99% Of the time.
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On April 07 2013 12:29 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after looking at lolking recently...
After Janna+Sona, Fiddles has the highest win rate. I don't even have the words to express that.
Wukong still quietly creeping up in win %. Now at 53.6.%.
Most shocking surprise is Rammus at 53%+. I forgot there was even a champion called Rammus.
All of these champs have AoE ults too. Press R meta will never leave this game.
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Press R meta is the most easy one to coordinate in solo queue by far. Most idiotproof, very straightforward. Don't even need to be particularly skilled. That's why it's understandable if just having mass AoE ults is the way to go for solo queue a great majority of the time.
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On April 07 2013 12:52 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 12:29 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after looking at lolking recently...
After Janna+Sona, Fiddles has the highest win rate. I don't even have the words to express that.
Wukong still quietly creeping up in win %. Now at 53.6.%.
Most shocking surprise is Rammus at 53%+. I forgot there was even a champion called Rammus. All of these champs have AoE ults too. Press R meta will never leave this game.
Problem is I don't see how people don't just invade Fiddlesticks and take his blue. Hell, even if he gets blue, just camp his red buff and wait for him. Then just murder him because he dies in like 2 hits anyway.
Wukong's laning is so meh. Then again, he is literally the equivalent to Akali. You can shut him down all you want, but once he gets BC/BT, his team fight is terrifying, much like Akali gets her first item and murders people.
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EPT
