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On April 03 2013 02:27 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 01:18 AsnSensation wrote:
Although I have my doubts any combination of allstar would have a chance if china sends something like
pdd
illusion
zztai
weixai
fzzf
Illusion is a weaker jungler than Clearlove. I actually think he's the weakest player on iG overall. I'm also not sure if I'd rate Fzzf as being the best support in China. Before he retired, it'd be Tabe for sure, but even after, I don't think Fzzf is a clear #1.
I want to ask how much a factor Uzi plays into this. From the streams I've seen, fellow Korean viewers were impressed with Uzi, but generally not so much with Tabe. A guy who first introduced me to Uzi once mentioned that Uzi was godlike despite having a crappy support and a crappy team. Was he just wrong? Was Tabe generally acknowledged as an elite support in the Chinese scene?
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On April 03 2013 00:18 Antyee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 23:53 Klive5ive wrote:
We need to pull together and start tactical voting against the fanboys.
Spread the word!
As much as it pains me I won't be voting for Bergson again, xPeke needs to beat Froggen.
And if Candypanda doesn't make it into 2nd I'm going to have to start voting Genja instead, we can't have yellowpete going! Yes, because obviously, we are better judges of deciding who should be the favourite players of everyone who votes. This "he isn't the best player in my opinion, so others aren't allowed to like him" attitude is probably the worst I have seen on this subforum in a long time.
The thing is, we're allowed to vote once per day instead of once ever. So it behooves us to 'settle' for someone that actually has a chance of winning after its clear that the guy we are currently going for isn't gonna make it. (I voted for Ecco mid. Best Dolphin NA.)
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On April 03 2013 02:21 LaM wrote:
I really feel like the TL Asian scene fanboyism is a bit over the top. Right now, the Korean/SEA/and Chinese scenes are stronger than NA and to a lesser degree Europe. No doubt about it. However, they have not shown themselves to be worlds apart. In addition, LCS only serves to close the gap between the scenes by providing a more structured environment for NA/European scenes to practice with, something that brings them more in line with the eSports infrastructure of the East. And again, mixing up players into All Star teams helps close the gap between regions/teams by erasing much of the team skill that the Asian teams have built through incredibly amounts of practice.
I don't know if it's the Starcraft "Koreans are god" bias seeping in or just the old "we are holders of elite knowledge/opinions" TL mindset, but I think people are universally and hivemind(ally?) over-exaggerating the skill of the Asian scene.
It isn't just TL that holds this viewpoint. If the NA scene is so strong they'll have plenty of chances to prove it. I have complete confidence that NA and EU can catch up and surpass the Koreans, Chinese, or SEA scene. But they have to work for it and radically change how they approach the game. The NA scene scrims a lot more than they once did but I've heard in interviews that like Dignitas only scrims for 4-5 hours a day? Then they just play solo queue and stuff for the rest of the day. And they probably scrim as much as possible too. That kind of practice regime can't compete with the Chinese or Koreans.
It's not even that NA teams are lazy or anything either imo. Dignitas and CLG both scrimmed like 10 hours a day when they were in Korea. But yeah they need to start scrimming more and this notion of, "we don't need coaches to help us analyze," probably needs to go away too.
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United States23745 Posts
On April 03 2013 02:21 LaM wrote:
I really feel like the TL Asian scene fanboyism is a bit over the top. Right now, the Korean/SEA/and Chinese scenes are stronger than NA and to a lesser degree Europe. No doubt about it. However, they have not shown themselves to be worlds apart. In addition, LCS only serves to close the gap between the scenes by providing a more structured environment for NA/European scenes to practice with, something that brings them more in line with the eSports infrastructure of the East. And again, mixing up players into All Star teams helps close the gap between regions/teams by erasing much of the team skill that the Asian teams have built through incredibly amounts of practice.
I don't know if it's the Starcraft "Koreans are god" bias seeping in or just the old "we are holders of elite knowledge/opinions" TL mindset, but I think people are universally and hivemind(ally?) over-exaggerating the skill of the Asian scene.
Even if the skill gap is exaggerated, KR has the highest concentration of top tier teams. Frost/Blaze, KT B, and Najin Sword are four top tier teams. NA doesn't have anyone of that caliber, EU has Gambit, and CH has WE and SAE has TPA. Just the amount of high caliber teams is what I find so astounding about KR.
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Clearly Velocity Esports should pick up Chuuper and knock out coL in the up/downs :>
Well, maybe you can do a better job scouting for talent than Chuuper, but it's a thought.
(Honestly, I think coL can do better than Pr0lly, too.)
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On April 03 2013 02:30 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 00:18 Antyee wrote:On April 02 2013 23:53 Klive5ive wrote:
We need to pull together and start tactical voting against the fanboys.
Spread the word!
As much as it pains me I won't be voting for Bergson again, xPeke needs to beat Froggen.
And if Candypanda doesn't make it into 2nd I'm going to have to start voting Genja instead, we can't have yellowpete going! Yes, because obviously, we are better judges of deciding who should be the favourite players of everyone who votes. This "he isn't the best player in my opinion, so others aren't allowed to like him" attitude is probably the worst I have seen on this subforum in a long time. The thing is, we're allowed to vote once per day instead of once ever. So it behooves us to 'settle' for someone that actually has a chance of winning after its clear that the guy we are currently going for isn't gonna make it. (I voted for Ecco mid. Best Dolphin NA.)
There's actually a proof that no voting system with more than 2 candidates has every desirable property that you'd intuitively want a voting system to have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow's_impossibility_theorem
In this specific example, with a plurality-wins system, rational voters will generally vote for only candidates they think have a shot of winning, which is generally either 1st or 2nd place (maybe 3rd if they're close enough behind)
If your preference is A>B>C, but A has 5% of the votes and B and C split the rest, a rational voter would vote for B.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 03 2013 02:28 Letmelose wrote:
I want to ask how much a factor Uzi plays into this. From the streams I've seen, fellow Korean viewers were impressed with Uzi, but generally not so much with Tabe. A guy who first introduced me to Uzi once mentioned that Uzi was godlike despite having a crappy support and a crappy team. Was he just wrong? Was Tabe generally acknowledged as an elite support in the Chinese scene?
Tabe's individual skill has undoubtedly deteriorated since when he was in his prime, but it's important to remember that at the end of the day, Tabe was still the most experienced active professional player in Chinese LoL. As far as I'm aware, no other player in China who's been playing LoL as long as he has is still an active pro. He complemented Uzi well because Uzi's existing strengths (mechanics, laning, small-scale engagements) could make up for Tabe's questionable ability in lane, while at the same time Uzi could (and undoubtedly did) learn a lot from Tabe's experience and knowledge of game flow.
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On April 03 2013 02:20 Hyren wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 14:53 gtrsrs wrote:
are you guys serious
velocity esports guys
velocity esports
and yes he is interested in joining our roster but he also told me he had a reputation in sc2 and i wanted some more info. thanks! This should tell you all you need to know about Deezer. You don't even have to watch the whole thing. The first 5 minutes will tell you what you need to know.
Catz is really mature, I think I'm older than him and I would have fucking raged at Deezer, unless I've had enough alcohol in the blood. He is playing league ?
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On April 03 2013 02:31 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 02:21 LaM wrote:
I really feel like the TL Asian scene fanboyism is a bit over the top. Right now, the Korean/SEA/and Chinese scenes are stronger than NA and to a lesser degree Europe. No doubt about it. However, they have not shown themselves to be worlds apart. In addition, LCS only serves to close the gap between the scenes by providing a more structured environment for NA/European scenes to practice with, something that brings them more in line with the eSports infrastructure of the East. And again, mixing up players into All Star teams helps close the gap between regions/teams by erasing much of the team skill that the Asian teams have built through incredibly amounts of practice.
I don't know if it's the Starcraft "Koreans are god" bias seeping in or just the old "we are holders of elite knowledge/opinions" TL mindset, but I think people are universally and hivemind(ally?) over-exaggerating the skill of the Asian scene.
Even if the skill gap is exaggerated, KR has the highest concentration of top tier teams. Frost/Blaze, KT B, and Najin Sword are four top tier teams. NA doesn't have anyone of that caliber, EU has Gambit, and CH has WE and SAE has TPA. Just the amount of high caliber teams is what I find so astounding about KR.
I feel like we should also put EG on that tier if we're looking at past performances. It was a while ago (they're not in form currently but they've admitted that and are trying to change their playstyle) but they did place 2nd in OGN Champions.
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On April 03 2013 02:38 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 02:31 onlywonderboy wrote:On April 03 2013 02:21 LaM wrote:
I really feel like the TL Asian scene fanboyism is a bit over the top. Right now, the Korean/SEA/and Chinese scenes are stronger than NA and to a lesser degree Europe. No doubt about it. However, they have not shown themselves to be worlds apart. In addition, LCS only serves to close the gap between the scenes by providing a more structured environment for NA/European scenes to practice with, something that brings them more in line with the eSports infrastructure of the East. And again, mixing up players into All Star teams helps close the gap between regions/teams by erasing much of the team skill that the Asian teams have built through incredibly amounts of practice.
I don't know if it's the Starcraft "Koreans are god" bias seeping in or just the old "we are holders of elite knowledge/opinions" TL mindset, but I think people are universally and hivemind(ally?) over-exaggerating the skill of the Asian scene.
Even if the skill gap is exaggerated, KR has the highest concentration of top tier teams. Frost/Blaze, KT B, and Najin Sword are four top tier teams. NA doesn't have anyone of that caliber, EU has Gambit, and CH has WE and SAE has TPA. Just the amount of high caliber teams is what I find so astounding about KR. I feel like we should also put EG on that tier if we're looking at past performances. It was a while ago (they're not in form currently but they've admitted that and are trying to change their playstyle) but they did place 2nd in OGN Champions.
The point remains that NA has a pretty abysmal record against the Rest of the World.
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United States20754 Posts
On April 03 2013 02:30 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 00:18 Antyee wrote:On April 02 2013 23:53 Klive5ive wrote:
We need to pull together and start tactical voting against the fanboys.
Spread the word!
As much as it pains me I won't be voting for Bergson again, xPeke needs to beat Froggen.
And if Candypanda doesn't make it into 2nd I'm going to have to start voting Genja instead, we can't have yellowpete going! Yes, because obviously, we are better judges of deciding who should be the favourite players of everyone who votes. This "he isn't the best player in my opinion, so others aren't allowed to like him" attitude is probably the worst I have seen on this subforum in a long time. The thing is, we're allowed to vote once per day instead of once ever. So it behooves us to 'settle' for someone that actually has a chance of winning after its clear that the guy we are currently going for isn't gonna make it. (I voted for Ecco mid. Best Dolphin NA.)
That was my reasoning, verbatim. *high five*
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On April 03 2013 02:41 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 02:38 sylverfyre wrote:On April 03 2013 02:31 onlywonderboy wrote:On April 03 2013 02:21 LaM wrote:
I really feel like the TL Asian scene fanboyism is a bit over the top. Right now, the Korean/SEA/and Chinese scenes are stronger than NA and to a lesser degree Europe. No doubt about it. However, they have not shown themselves to be worlds apart. In addition, LCS only serves to close the gap between the scenes by providing a more structured environment for NA/European scenes to practice with, something that brings them more in line with the eSports infrastructure of the East. And again, mixing up players into All Star teams helps close the gap between regions/teams by erasing much of the team skill that the Asian teams have built through incredibly amounts of practice.
I don't know if it's the Starcraft "Koreans are god" bias seeping in or just the old "we are holders of elite knowledge/opinions" TL mindset, but I think people are universally and hivemind(ally?) over-exaggerating the skill of the Asian scene.
Even if the skill gap is exaggerated, KR has the highest concentration of top tier teams. Frost/Blaze, KT B, and Najin Sword are four top tier teams. NA doesn't have anyone of that caliber, EU has Gambit, and CH has WE and SAE has TPA. Just the amount of high caliber teams is what I find so astounding about KR. I feel like we should also put EG on that tier if we're looking at past performances. It was a while ago (they're not in form currently but they've admitted that and are trying to change their playstyle) but they did place 2nd in OGN Champions. The point remains that NA has a pretty abysmal record against the Rest of the World.
Yeah but it's not the case for EG, Gambit, or even Fnatic. I think those three EU team are actually good enough to play on par with most Asian teams, especially since the beginning of LCS EU because it's gives them constant training.
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On April 03 2013 02:21 LaM wrote:
I really feel like the TL Asian scene fanboyism is a bit over the top. Right now, the Korean/SEA/and Chinese scenes are stronger than NA and to a lesser degree Europe. No doubt about it. However, they have not shown themselves to be worlds apart. In addition, LCS only serves to close the gap between the scenes by providing a more structured environment for NA/European scenes to practice with, something that brings them more in line with the eSports infrastructure of the East. And again, mixing up players into All Star teams helps close the gap between regions/teams by erasing much of the team skill that the Asian teams have built through incredibly amounts of practice.
I don't know if it's the Starcraft "Koreans are god" bias seeping in or just the old "we are holders of elite knowledge/opinions" TL mindset, but I think people are universally and hivemind(ally?) over-exaggerating the skill of the Asian scene.
i think asia is legitimately ahead of the game by a lot. they're ahead in individual skill, they're ahead in teamwork and communication.
the all-star game is whatever but if you're talking on a scene-by-scene basis then yeah asia is ahead of NA by a whole lot right now. heck, i don't even know the last time NA did something innovative that was copied throughout all the regions.
but really if you can't see why asia is so good i think you need to watch more asian games.
i feel like dignitas is the best team in NA with the potential to close the gap, i think that strategically they could catch up but right now their execution is nowhere near as clean as asian teams.
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On April 03 2013 02:41 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 02:38 sylverfyre wrote:On April 03 2013 02:31 onlywonderboy wrote:On April 03 2013 02:21 LaM wrote:
I really feel like the TL Asian scene fanboyism is a bit over the top. Right now, the Korean/SEA/and Chinese scenes are stronger than NA and to a lesser degree Europe. No doubt about it. However, they have not shown themselves to be worlds apart. In addition, LCS only serves to close the gap between the scenes by providing a more structured environment for NA/European scenes to practice with, something that brings them more in line with the eSports infrastructure of the East. And again, mixing up players into All Star teams helps close the gap between regions/teams by erasing much of the team skill that the Asian teams have built through incredibly amounts of practice.
I don't know if it's the Starcraft "Koreans are god" bias seeping in or just the old "we are holders of elite knowledge/opinions" TL mindset, but I think people are universally and hivemind(ally?) over-exaggerating the skill of the Asian scene.
Even if the skill gap is exaggerated, KR has the highest concentration of top tier teams. Frost/Blaze, KT B, and Najin Sword are four top tier teams. NA doesn't have anyone of that caliber, EU has Gambit, and CH has WE and SAE has TPA. Just the amount of high caliber teams is what I find so astounding about KR. I feel like we should also put EG on that tier if we're looking at past performances. It was a while ago (they're not in form currently but they've admitted that and are trying to change their playstyle) but they did place 2nd in OGN Champions. The point remains that NA has a pretty abysmal record against the Rest of the World.
Nowhere am I refuting that 
I do agree that it's more that KR has a higher concentration of world-class teams than other regions, but other regions DO HAVE world-class teams. Just not as many. Also NA doesn't even have a whole lot of teams who are next-best (only 4 teams... the bottom 4 of the LCS are really struggling to take games off the top 4 in anything remotely resembling consistent.)
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On April 03 2013 02:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 02:28 Letmelose wrote:
I want to ask how much a factor Uzi plays into this. From the streams I've seen, fellow Korean viewers were impressed with Uzi, but generally not so much with Tabe. A guy who first introduced me to Uzi once mentioned that Uzi was godlike despite having a crappy support and a crappy team. Was he just wrong? Was Tabe generally acknowledged as an elite support in the Chinese scene? Tabe's individual skill has undoubtedly deteriorated since when he was in his prime, but it's important to remember that at the end of the day, Tabe was still the most experienced active professional player in Chinese LoL. As far as I'm aware, no other player in China who's been playing LoL as long as he has is still an active pro. He complemented Uzi well because Uzi's existing strengths (mechanics, laning, small-scale engagements) could make up for Tabe's questionable ability in lane, while at the same time Uzi could (and undoubtedly did) learn a lot from Tabe's experience and knowledge of game flow.
Thanks a lot, noticing mechanics and laning ability is one thing, but it isn't the best idea to make a judgement for a player from that alone. I really hope Uzi can represent the Chinese team, because Weixiao, as amazing as he is, has enough exposure already. This tournament is like the only chance for individually amazing players from lesser teams to get international exposure.
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On April 03 2013 02:31 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 02:21 LaM wrote:
I really feel like the TL Asian scene fanboyism is a bit over the top. Right now, the Korean/SEA/and Chinese scenes are stronger than NA and to a lesser degree Europe. No doubt about it. However, they have not shown themselves to be worlds apart. In addition, LCS only serves to close the gap between the scenes by providing a more structured environment for NA/European scenes to practice with, something that brings them more in line with the eSports infrastructure of the East. And again, mixing up players into All Star teams helps close the gap between regions/teams by erasing much of the team skill that the Asian teams have built through incredibly amounts of practice.
I don't know if it's the Starcraft "Koreans are god" bias seeping in or just the old "we are holders of elite knowledge/opinions" TL mindset, but I think people are universally and hivemind(ally?) over-exaggerating the skill of the Asian scene.
Even if the skill gap is exaggerated, KR has the highest concentration of top tier teams. Frost/Blaze, KT B, and Najin Sword are four top tier teams. NA doesn't have anyone of that caliber, EU has Gambit, and CH has WE and SAE has TPA. Just the amount of high caliber teams is what I find so astounding about KR.
I think KR also has a great stock of the 2nd tier teams.
Shield, both MVP teams, IM. The scene is super exciting.
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United States20754 Posts
Lol @ Deezer playing league... enough of the pro fanbase connects with Starcraft for us to know he's got no chance at making it xD
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On April 03 2013 02:27 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 01:18 AsnSensation wrote:
Although I have my doubts any combination of allstar would have a chance if china sends something like
pdd
illusion
zztai
weixai
fzzf
Illusion is a weaker jungler than Clearlove. I actually think he's the weakest player on iG overall. I'm also not sure if I'd rate Fzzf as being the best support in China. Before he retired, it'd be Tabe for sure, but even after, I don't think Fzzf is a clear #1.
Maybe you're right and clearlove is better ( both are beast though right =) ? ) I was actually just putting together a quick combination of iG/We players and gotta admit that apart from fzzf and xiaoxiao, I don't know too many chinese supports and picked fzzf for duo lane synergy sake with my favourite ad Weixao!
gratz for the mighty hammer yango!
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On April 03 2013 02:38 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 02:31 onlywonderboy wrote:On April 03 2013 02:21 LaM wrote:
I really feel like the TL Asian scene fanboyism is a bit over the top. Right now, the Korean/SEA/and Chinese scenes are stronger than NA and to a lesser degree Europe. No doubt about it. However, they have not shown themselves to be worlds apart. In addition, LCS only serves to close the gap between the scenes by providing a more structured environment for NA/European scenes to practice with, something that brings them more in line with the eSports infrastructure of the East. And again, mixing up players into All Star teams helps close the gap between regions/teams by erasing much of the team skill that the Asian teams have built through incredibly amounts of practice.
I don't know if it's the Starcraft "Koreans are god" bias seeping in or just the old "we are holders of elite knowledge/opinions" TL mindset, but I think people are universally and hivemind(ally?) over-exaggerating the skill of the Asian scene.
Even if the skill gap is exaggerated, KR has the highest concentration of top tier teams. Frost/Blaze, KT B, and Najin Sword are four top tier teams. NA doesn't have anyone of that caliber, EU has Gambit, and CH has WE and SAE has TPA. Just the amount of high caliber teams is what I find so astounding about KR. I feel like we should also put EG on that tier if we're looking at past performances. It was a while ago (they're not in form currently but they've admitted that and are trying to change their playstyle) but they did place 2nd in OGN Champions.
If you are going to add Evil Geniuses by that logic, why not add SK Telecom T1 who has placed higher than them in two IEM tournaments? Then why not add all the teams that stomped SK Telecom T1 to the ground in the SWL S2 group stages? The list will go on and on.
Evil Geniuses was an elite team in the past, but since then they have pretty mediocre. They have dissapointed in IEM Cologne, IEM World Championship, and have been adequate at best in the European circuit. Of course, they are able to take games off from the best teams in the world, but they can, and frequently have been beaten by teams that would shit their pants at the mere sight of Team WE. It's not all about the highest potential cap, it's also about how low a team can go, and considering the depths that Evil Geniuses have reached, I don't think they can be named amongst the very top.
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On April 02 2013 18:52 TheKefka wrote:
gz on becoming a hammer yango^^
What's a banling btw? It's sort of a "local mod", like Neo is to the LoL section, right? So that means Yango became mod for the DotA2 section?
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EPT
