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Australia18228 Posts
On January 28 2013 15:38 JALbert wrote:
So Reddit blew up with a guy's match history that's all AP Tryndamere. I modified his build slightly and have crushed two games thus far with it. Is this some weird mirage?
ArPen reds / Armor Yellows / AP Blues /AP Quints.
21/9 masteries. Pick up ArPen and most of the magey things.
Cleanse/Ignite (his preference, the cleanse seems really strong for when your ult is popped and you're ignited, flash not really as neccesary with a 5 second spin CD).
CDR Boots + Kindlegem (to SV) + CDR boots + DCap + LichBane. He uses Morello's as first item for AP/CDR but I hate the wasted stats on mp5, so I've been running Spirit Visage because the heals are insane, and the CDR is really big for AP Trynd.
E>Q>W.
Wouldn't Nashors' be better than Morello/SV?
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On January 28 2013 15:10 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 14:50 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how many low elo players have no clue about AD mids. Just got called an idiot by 4 people because I said "You don't NEED an AP mid". Very interesting how oblivious they are. Eh, if you had said the same thing to high elo players a few months ago you'd have gotten the same response. I think in most cases you are still better off having an AP carry than two bruisers/AD casters.
Eh. I think the Mid Lane AD Casters (besides Jarvan) are pretty much the easiest to play good champs in the game. Chars like Khazix are the kind of champs I want my (likely unreliable) teammates to play. Its almost impossible to miss void spikes (unlike Morgana/Lux/Zyra bind, Anivia Stun, etc) and AD champs are much better at killing towers once you get a lucky 3 for 1 in a happenstance jungle engagement.
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I actually still have AP on my Tryndamere-specific runepage because it's so good for his laning phase. AP Quints/Glyphs translate to ~40 healing per Q and 30 damage per E. Combine it with an Amp Tome start and I was able to crush Yoricks back in S2. That was back when Gunblade was better on ADs than BT. The pseudo-AP Tryndamere build fell out of favor after they nerfed Gunblade a few times, but with the hefty nerfs to other Life Steal items, it could make sense again.
For a full AP build I wouldn't rush SV unless you were against an opponent with high magic damage, the 20% bonus healing isn't better than AP until you have a significant chunk of AP, and you get most of the CDR from the Kindlegem. Otherwise that build makes more sense to me than rushing Morello's.
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ap tryn is not even good im stating this now its annoying to lane against but then thats it
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On January 28 2013 15:46 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 15:10 Alzadar wrote:On January 28 2013 14:50 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how many low elo players have no clue about AD mids. Just got called an idiot by 4 people because I said "You don't NEED an AP mid". Very interesting how oblivious they are. Eh, if you had said the same thing to high elo players a few months ago you'd have gotten the same response. I think in most cases you are still better off having an AP carry than two bruisers/AD casters. Eh. I think the Mid Lane AD Casters (besides Jarvan) are pretty much the easiest to play good champs in the game. Chars like Khazix are the kind of champs I want my (likely unreliable) teammates to play. Its almost impossible to miss void spikes (unlike Morgana/Lux/Zyra bind, Anivia Stun, etc) and AD champs are much better at killing towers once you get a lucky 3 for 1 in a happenstance jungle engagement.
AD casters are only marginally better than AP carries at killing towers. You deal 40% of your AP + base AD to towers, and AP is half as expensive as AD.
Ok, here's something I'm really curious about: why has everybody stopped building Randuin's Omen? From S2 to S3 it lost 5 armor and gained 150 hp. The slow passive is weaker but is a guranteed proc, and the attack speed slow is stronger AND is guaranteed now, making it ridiculous for dueling auto-attackers. Losing the attack speed slow from the active kind of sucks though.
Most importantly, the #1 trash noobtrap item, Heart of Gold, is no longer part of the build path. 
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On January 28 2013 16:02 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 15:46 cLutZ wrote:On January 28 2013 15:10 Alzadar wrote:On January 28 2013 14:50 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how many low elo players have no clue about AD mids. Just got called an idiot by 4 people because I said "You don't NEED an AP mid". Very interesting how oblivious they are. Eh, if you had said the same thing to high elo players a few months ago you'd have gotten the same response. I think in most cases you are still better off having an AP carry than two bruisers/AD casters. Eh. I think the Mid Lane AD Casters (besides Jarvan) are pretty much the easiest to play good champs in the game. Chars like Khazix are the kind of champs I want my (likely unreliable) teammates to play. Its almost impossible to miss void spikes (unlike Morgana/Lux/Zyra bind, Anivia Stun, etc) and AD champs are much better at killing towers once you get a lucky 3 for 1 in a happenstance jungle engagement. AD casters are only marginally better than AP carries at killing towers. You deal 40% of your AP + base AD to towers, and AP is half as expensive as AD. Ok, here's something I'm really curious about: why has everybody stopped building Randuin's Omen? From S2 to S3 it lost 5 armor and gained 150 hp. The slow passive is weaker but is a guranteed proc, and the attack speed slow is stronger AND is guaranteed now, making it ridiculous for dueling auto-attackers. Losing the attack speed slow from the active kind of sucks though. Most importantly, the #1 trash noobtrap item, Heart of Gold, is no longer part of the build path.
No attack speed makes a pretty big difference because poking it a copule of times and getting out is a lot more dangerous w/ those slow animation autos.
Omen just not used as much because people are largely just stacking HP. It's still a fine item, but your incentive to buy one is diminished with how solid mogs is. And if you want armor/hp a lot of the people who would build it just end up snagging sunfire instead.
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i think its very obvious that the NA meta is behind EU just from solo queue champions, the jungler pool is extremely limited. It seems the only thing NA plays that EU doesnt is draven. Otherwise it feels like EU has a wider pool in general.
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On January 28 2013 16:02 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 15:46 cLutZ wrote:On January 28 2013 15:10 Alzadar wrote:On January 28 2013 14:50 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how many low elo players have no clue about AD mids. Just got called an idiot by 4 people because I said "You don't NEED an AP mid". Very interesting how oblivious they are. Eh, if you had said the same thing to high elo players a few months ago you'd have gotten the same response. I think in most cases you are still better off having an AP carry than two bruisers/AD casters. Eh. I think the Mid Lane AD Casters (besides Jarvan) are pretty much the easiest to play good champs in the game. Chars like Khazix are the kind of champs I want my (likely unreliable) teammates to play. Its almost impossible to miss void spikes (unlike Morgana/Lux/Zyra bind, Anivia Stun, etc) and AD champs are much better at killing towers once you get a lucky 3 for 1 in a happenstance jungle engagement. AD casters are only marginally better than AP carries at killing towers. You deal 40% of your AP + base AD to towers, and AP is half as expensive as AD. Ok, here's something I'm really curious about: why has everybody stopped building Randuin's Omen? From S2 to S3 it lost 5 armor and gained 150 hp. The slow passive is weaker but is a guranteed proc, and the attack speed slow is stronger AND is guaranteed now, making it ridiculous for dueling auto-attackers. Losing the attack speed slow from the active kind of sucks though. Most importantly, the #1 trash noobtrap item, Heart of Gold, is no longer part of the build path.
HOG was good because it built into Randuins. Warden's mail had its build path nerfed (chainvest better than clothx2). CDR removed. Armor as a stat nerfed. Cost of many rival items made less (Randuins 25g more).
Honestly, I don't know why, but those would be the main options for me. If I ever started cloth 5 as like Jax vs a tough lane I might consider Warden's as a first item, but HP+Tabis seems stronger right now.
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Welp was at 400 IP yesterday and now I'm sitting at 4.2k. Yep, it was a gooooooooooooooooooooooooooood (and very unproductive) weekend.
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On January 28 2013 16:11 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 16:02 Alzadar wrote:On January 28 2013 15:46 cLutZ wrote:On January 28 2013 15:10 Alzadar wrote:On January 28 2013 14:50 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how many low elo players have no clue about AD mids. Just got called an idiot by 4 people because I said "You don't NEED an AP mid". Very interesting how oblivious they are. Eh, if you had said the same thing to high elo players a few months ago you'd have gotten the same response. I think in most cases you are still better off having an AP carry than two bruisers/AD casters. Eh. I think the Mid Lane AD Casters (besides Jarvan) are pretty much the easiest to play good champs in the game. Chars like Khazix are the kind of champs I want my (likely unreliable) teammates to play. Its almost impossible to miss void spikes (unlike Morgana/Lux/Zyra bind, Anivia Stun, etc) and AD champs are much better at killing towers once you get a lucky 3 for 1 in a happenstance jungle engagement. AD casters are only marginally better than AP carries at killing towers. You deal 40% of your AP + base AD to towers, and AP is half as expensive as AD. Ok, here's something I'm really curious about: why has everybody stopped building Randuin's Omen? From S2 to S3 it lost 5 armor and gained 150 hp. The slow passive is weaker but is a guranteed proc, and the attack speed slow is stronger AND is guaranteed now, making it ridiculous for dueling auto-attackers. Losing the attack speed slow from the active kind of sucks though. Most importantly, the #1 trash noobtrap item, Heart of Gold, is no longer part of the build path. No attack speed makes a pretty big difference because poking it a copule of times and getting out is a lot more dangerous w/ those slow animation autos. Omen just not used as much because people are largely just stacking HP. It's still a fine item, but your incentive to buy one is diminished with how solid mogs is. And if you want armor/hp a lot of the people who would build it just end up snagging sunfire instead.
Bit of math:
Using a level 13 Lee Sin with armor yellows + Durability, Hardiness and Veteran's Scars masteries (+108 hp, +18 armor)
His stats at level 13 with no items:
1533+108 = 1641 hp
64+18 = 82 armor
2986 effective physical health
Assume the enemy has the 8% ArPen mastery
With Warmogs:
2641 hp
82 armor
4806 effective physical health
With Randuin's
2141 hp
152 armor
5395 effective physical health
With Warmogs (Black Cleaver shred)
2641 hp
61-10=51 armor
3987 effective physical health
With Randuin's (Black Cleaver shred)
2141 hp
114-10=104 armor
4367 effective physical health
With Warmogs (Black Cleaver shred + LW penetration)
2641 hp
61 armor -> penetrated to 29
3406 effective physical health
With Randuin's (Black Cleaver shred + LW penetration)
2141 hp
114 armor -> penetrated to 64
3511 effective physical health
With 8% ArPen mastery on enemy
With Warmogs (Black Cleaver shred + LW penetration)
2641 hp
61 armor -> penetrated to 26
3327 effective physical health
With Randuin's (Black Cleaver shred + LW penetration)
2141 hp
114 armor -> penetrated to 58
3382 effective physical health
Even when fully shredded by a Black Cleaver AND penetrated by a Last Whisper, Randuin's STILL gives more effective health vs physical damage than Warmogs (only just) AND has lots of utility.
*added 8% ArPen mastery, flat pen from BC and fixed LW penetration to 35% (forgot it wasn't 40%)
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On January 28 2013 16:02 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 15:46 cLutZ wrote:On January 28 2013 15:10 Alzadar wrote:On January 28 2013 14:50 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how many low elo players have no clue about AD mids. Just got called an idiot by 4 people because I said "You don't NEED an AP mid". Very interesting how oblivious they are. Eh, if you had said the same thing to high elo players a few months ago you'd have gotten the same response. I think in most cases you are still better off having an AP carry than two bruisers/AD casters. Eh. I think the Mid Lane AD Casters (besides Jarvan) are pretty much the easiest to play good champs in the game. Chars like Khazix are the kind of champs I want my (likely unreliable) teammates to play. Its almost impossible to miss void spikes (unlike Morgana/Lux/Zyra bind, Anivia Stun, etc) and AD champs are much better at killing towers once you get a lucky 3 for 1 in a happenstance jungle engagement. AD casters are only marginally better than AP carries at killing towers. You deal 40% of your AP + base AD to towers, and AP is half as expensive as AD.
Talon melts towers. Auto reset on a very low cooldown on his Q, that works against towers, with an enhanced AD ratio? Go for it champ. As soon as he has enough AD to one-shot (or almost) creep waves with Rake he's actually an 0K splitpusher as long as the enemy team doesn't focus too heavily on catching him.
Ok, here's something I'm really curious about: why has everybody stopped building Randuin's Omen? From S2 to S3 it lost 5 armor and gained 150 hp. The slow passive is weaker but is a guranteed proc, and the attack speed slow is stronger AND is guaranteed now, making it ridiculous for dueling auto-attackers. Losing the attack speed slow from the active kind of sucks though.
HoG 825
Chain vest 700
Completing Warden's Mail 650
Completing Randuin's 900
Became:
Belt 1000
Cloth 300
Completing Warden's Mail 800
Completing Randuin's 1000
More or less. The build path is either more expensive, or less slot-efficient (chain vest/cloth) at each step, so I find it a lot more awkward to do. Warden's Mail is worse off because it doesn't affect AS anymore and you lose the hp5 too, which makes it a worse laning item than in s2.
And yeah, when you buy a belt you'll generally try to finish sunfire if you splitpush, warmogs if you're "selfish" (it's also a lot easier to build wrt components costs), mallet if phage is part of your core before randuin's which is more of a teamfight/utility item.
Edit: warmogs gives regen, gives better EHP against magical damage, and you seemed to forget the flat 10 ArPen from BC (and probably masteries and runes too, unless it's an AD carry) in your calculations.
Also, warmogs costs a lot less (around 450).
Edit²: welp, you edited yourself.
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Randi's is an amazing item.
The problem is its one of those items that doesnt viscerally give you the same feeling of effectiveness as a funfire or a warmogs.
Its my second pick up on anyone Im tanking with (after a funfire or mogs) because while it is amazing, you dont need it til later on in the game when you start doing the whole "im a tank i run at ad carry kill me now" thing.
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On January 28 2013 16:18 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 16:02 Alzadar wrote:On January 28 2013 15:46 cLutZ wrote:On January 28 2013 15:10 Alzadar wrote:On January 28 2013 14:50 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how many low elo players have no clue about AD mids. Just got called an idiot by 4 people because I said "You don't NEED an AP mid". Very interesting how oblivious they are. Eh, if you had said the same thing to high elo players a few months ago you'd have gotten the same response. I think in most cases you are still better off having an AP carry than two bruisers/AD casters. Eh. I think the Mid Lane AD Casters (besides Jarvan) are pretty much the easiest to play good champs in the game. Chars like Khazix are the kind of champs I want my (likely unreliable) teammates to play. Its almost impossible to miss void spikes (unlike Morgana/Lux/Zyra bind, Anivia Stun, etc) and AD champs are much better at killing towers once you get a lucky 3 for 1 in a happenstance jungle engagement. AD casters are only marginally better than AP carries at killing towers. You deal 40% of your AP + base AD to towers, and AP is half as expensive as AD. Talon melts towers. Auto reset on a very low cooldown on his Q, that works against towers, with an enhanced AD ratio? Go for it champ. As soon as he has enough AD to one-shot (or almost) creep waves with Rake he's actually an 0K splitpusher as long as the enemy team doesn't focus too heavily on catching him. Show nested quote +Ok, here's something I'm really curious about: why has everybody stopped building Randuin's Omen? From S2 to S3 it lost 5 armor and gained 150 hp. The slow passive is weaker but is a guranteed proc, and the attack speed slow is stronger AND is guaranteed now, making it ridiculous for dueling auto-attackers. Losing the attack speed slow from the active kind of sucks though. HoG 825 Chain vest 700 Completing Warden's Mail 650 Completing Randuin's 900 Became: Belt 1000 Cloth 300 Completing Warden's Mail 800 Completing Randuin's 1000 More or less. The build path is either more expensive, or less slot-efficient (chain vest/cloth) at each step, so I find it a lot more awkward to do. Warden's Mail is worse off because it doesn't affect AS anymore and you lose the hp5 too, which makes it a worse laning item than in s2. And yeah, when you buy a belt you'll generally try to finish sunfire if you splitpush, warmogs if you're "selfish" (it's also a lot easier to build wrt components costs), mallet if phage is part of your core before randuin's which is more of a teamfight/utility item. Edit: warmogs gives regen, gives better EHP against magical damage, and you seemed to forget the flat 10 ArPen from BC (and probably masteries and runes too, unless it's an AD carry) in your calculations. Also, warmogs costs a lot less (around 450). Edit²: welp, you edited yourself.
Sorry, moved the math to its own post so it wouldn't get lost in the edit.
Warden's Mail does still effect AS (100% of the time now), did you mean movement speed?
The flat ArPen from BC will only favor Randuin's even more, but I can add it. 8% ArPen mastery is relevant though, will redo the numbers.
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What's the whole deal with pro's, and not being able to use certain smurfs?
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stuff
The issue is that Warmogs does soooooo much more for you against mixed and magic damage. With how incredibly shitty magic resist itemization is now, raw HP is simply much more efficient than getting a mix of armor and mr.
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On January 28 2013 15:38 JALbert wrote:
So Reddit blew up with a guy's match history that's all AP Tryndamere. I modified his build slightly and have crushed two games thus far with it. Is this some weird mirage?
ArPen reds / Armor Yellows / AP Blues /AP Quints.
21/9 masteries. Pick up ArPen and most of the magey things.
Cleanse/Ignite (his preference, the cleanse seems really strong for when your ult is popped and you're ignited, flash not really as neccesary with a 5 second spin CD).
CDR Boots + Kindlegem (to SV) + CDR boots + DCap + LichBane. He uses Morello's as first item for AP/CDR but I hate the wasted stats on mp5, so I've been running Spirit Visage because the heals are insane, and the CDR is really big for AP Trynd.
E>Q>W.
Why would you ever need to cleanse an ignite when you can just press Q and heal for like 1k. Only newbie trynds die to ignite after ult ending.
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On January 28 2013 16:25 Alzadar wrote:
Warden's Mail does still effect AS (100% of the time now), did you mean movement speed?
The flat ArPen from BC will only favor Randuin's even more, but I can add it. 8% ArPen mastery is relevant though, will redo the numbers.
Welp I'm dumb. I was thinking about AS on Randuin's active and got it confused, as a laning item keeping the AS slow (and with a 100% chance) on Warden's isn't the bad. But it's still -20 hp5, which is really high during laning when compared to the natural hp5 of most champs.
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On January 28 2013 16:15 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 16:11 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On January 28 2013 16:02 Alzadar wrote:On January 28 2013 15:46 cLutZ wrote:On January 28 2013 15:10 Alzadar wrote:On January 28 2013 14:50 Diamond wrote:
It's amazing how many low elo players have no clue about AD mids. Just got called an idiot by 4 people because I said "You don't NEED an AP mid". Very interesting how oblivious they are. Eh, if you had said the same thing to high elo players a few months ago you'd have gotten the same response. I think in most cases you are still better off having an AP carry than two bruisers/AD casters. Eh. I think the Mid Lane AD Casters (besides Jarvan) are pretty much the easiest to play good champs in the game. Chars like Khazix are the kind of champs I want my (likely unreliable) teammates to play. Its almost impossible to miss void spikes (unlike Morgana/Lux/Zyra bind, Anivia Stun, etc) and AD champs are much better at killing towers once you get a lucky 3 for 1 in a happenstance jungle engagement. AD casters are only marginally better than AP carries at killing towers. You deal 40% of your AP + base AD to towers, and AP is half as expensive as AD. Ok, here's something I'm really curious about: why has everybody stopped building Randuin's Omen? From S2 to S3 it lost 5 armor and gained 150 hp. The slow passive is weaker but is a guranteed proc, and the attack speed slow is stronger AND is guaranteed now, making it ridiculous for dueling auto-attackers. Losing the attack speed slow from the active kind of sucks though. Most importantly, the #1 trash noobtrap item, Heart of Gold, is no longer part of the build path. No attack speed makes a pretty big difference because poking it a copule of times and getting out is a lot more dangerous w/ those slow animation autos. Omen just not used as much because people are largely just stacking HP. It's still a fine item, but your incentive to buy one is diminished with how solid mogs is. And if you want armor/hp a lot of the people who would build it just end up snagging sunfire instead. Bit of math:
I think, as you point out, that this is largely tied to simply AD. You're not just against AD's, even in the ad-heavy games that are being run now there's still magic damage flying around that the mogs will help more with. That said, I do still get randuin's from time to time, but I find it harder and harder to find a spot for additional armor items. Locket is purchased very regularly and aegis as well if another teamate isn't getting one. Throwing a huge chunk of armor on top of that by getting Omen isn't as badly needed and I'd have a hard time justifying it over either one of the earlier 2 items I mentioned.
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On January 28 2013 16:29 Ryuu314 wrote:The issue is that Warmogs does soooooo much more for you against mixed and magic damage. With how incredibly shitty magic resist itemization is now, raw HP is simply much more efficient than getting a mix of armor and mr.
Well, I don't know. Teams without an AP carry are relatively common. MR items lost about 3-10 resist each across the board, which does hurt but shouldn't be overstated. Flat magic penetration is also weaker across the board and is still very popular.
Then of course there's Liandry's Torment which seems to be relatively popular, and DFG has been buffed back to being a good item (percentage health damage).
A mix of HP, armor and MR is still by far the most cost-efficient way of being beefy. Force of Nature wasn't really a very popular item anyway, and Banshee's Veil has been buffed (perhaps debatable). How is MR itemization all that much worse than it used to be?
Another huge point in favor of Randuin's vs Warmogs is the sudden prevalence of Bloodthirster as the #1 choice on ADCs. Even when your effective HP is the same, with Warmogs the ADC with BT is lifestealing much more because the raw damage they are dealing is much higher.
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Farewell double IP weekend, it was fun.
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EPT
