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[Patch 1.0.0.154: Preseason Balance Update 2] GD - Page 16

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Pooshlmer
Profile Joined August 2008
United States1001 Posts
January 16 2013 19:27 GMT
#301
On January 17 2013 04:01 TheYango wrote:
That's a pretty poor analogy because MtG has zero balance changes to the game between set releases of 3 month cycles (barring cards that are so problematic that they get banned). This means that each set release can adequately respond to balance issues in the previous set based on 3 months of properly collecting data on how a given version of the game is supposed to play.


This is not really true. The data they use for a set is mostly internal testing. Any external data can take up to a year to be incorporated, sometimes 2. Cards are "locked in" about a year in advance.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23382 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-16 19:39:12
January 16 2013 19:36 GMT
#302
On January 16 2013 12:43 NeoIllusions wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2013 12:39 Zooper31 wrote:
•Monkey's Agility ◦Now additionally increases Udyr's armor and magic resist by 4% per stack


Can I finally play udyr again?!


Tankiness was never Udyrs prob...


Simple thought experiment here
-Udyr is now invulnerable to all damage
Obviously the most powerful champion in the game bar none
Scaling down
Udyr now has -50% damage reduction from all sources at all times
same deal
and we keep scaling down and you see tankiness is directly associated with viability of udyr. You can outrun basically everything and small % uptime of CC spells are only significant if you are losing so much hp in that time that you cannot continue chasing. This leads us to the realization that ALL udyrs potential problems come from tankiness. Which is why people build mostly tank items.

However mobility items and damage items are important to a point
-mobility reduces time taken to reach target, reducing incoming damage and making ganking easier
-a small amount of damage items significantly improve your damage output and dueling potential due to your massive ad steriod on R (95ish), and doubling your damage output is the same as doubling your tankiness for dueling but it's much easier to go from 100 DPS to 200 DPS, say, than from 3k hp to 6k hp. Obviously we skew about 50% more to the tanky side because you have to survive potential burst damage that will target you if you are squishy enough to kill you, so if you're tanky enough to avoid focusing you down as a viable option (this is a combination of tank stats AND timing and playing with your team, if its 5v1 it's always best to focus the 1 dude no matter how tanky he is)

Other comments:
"it helps tiger udyr more"
this is definitely wrong. A 12% steriod on your resists means the more hp and resists you have, the better it gets. Pheonix basically relies on a critical mass of tankiness to dive the targets you want to dive. You basically have to drive through a brick wall and if that 12% resists is like 25ish armour and mr it might leave you at 70% hp instead of 50 or 60% (depending on poke and shield usage, for example) which might be enough to continue diving but at 50% you can't 1v1 anyone and people can start using ignite on you and stuff.
Tiger udyr has more scaling later on damage (especially hitting 2 Q's in a row when first going in on a squishy) and bursts harder meaning you tend to build more damage and simply bear stun+q is noticable, while pheonix udyr you want at least 3 hits of r and preferably 5 seconds+ of aoe pheonix damage meaning you're in for the long hall.

"shyvana is less tanky than udyr"
this is downright ignorant. Udyr has a 6 second shield for 200 damage shielded. The later the game goes, the less significant this is, since heavy resist stacking is extremely hard, hp scales up tons just from leveling and is everywhere on items. Shyvanas flat magic resist boost of 40 mr/armour at for example 4k hp when you dragon form in is really strong. Also a shield scales the longer the fight lasts. Trying to focus down a shyvana who jumps in is MUCH harder than focusing down an udyr. Combine that with the fact that If you focus shyvana you focused someone who used her main burst with W R E Q, while you can kill an udyr before he does anything at all.

As scip rightly pointed out, udyr needs to punch people. ALL udyr can do is punch people. The only damage he has not based on auto attacks is the 67 DPS from the pheonix stance activation. EVERYTHING else he does is based on melee autoing people, and any passive threat he has to zone people is purely based on threat of running in and punching you, so the more people you can ignore to go in and do that the more of a threat you are.
kongoline
Profile Joined February 2012
6318 Posts
January 16 2013 19:37 GMT
#303
On January 17 2013 04:24 Slusher wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2013 04:19 Berailfor wrote:
I don't really like this patch. They didn't address some things that were larger issues like Khazix W. And they nerf champions based on their pub stomping capabilities, not their viability in pro matches (ie talon). And they make changes that are just straight odd. Riot, "I just think that Ezreals attack speed is a litttllee bit too fast. Let's nerf it by the most insignificant amount ever!"

I guess I'll just be happy about the turret priority.


the nerf to Khazix passive is actually a decent nerf to w, non passive charged W really isn't as bad as people think.

and the Bruiser mid padigrim shift has far more to do with the new arp calculations and armor gold value than BC.

its not bruiser those are fucking assassin when people will stop mixing them up, olaf rushing warmog with 1-2 dmg items thats a bruiser not a pantheon with bruta>bt>lw build
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
January 16 2013 19:38 GMT
#304
On January 17 2013 04:24 Slusher wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2013 04:19 Berailfor wrote:
I don't really like this patch. They didn't address some things that were larger issues like Khazix W. And they nerf champions based on their pub stomping capabilities, not their viability in pro matches (ie talon). And they make changes that are just straight odd. Riot, "I just think that Ezreals attack speed is a litttllee bit too fast. Let's nerf it by the most insignificant amount ever!"

I guess I'll just be happy about the turret priority.


the nerf to Khazix passive is actually a decent nerf to w, non passive charged W really isn't as bad as people think.

and the Bruiser mid padigrim shift has far more to do with the new arp calculations and armor gold value than BC.

Also as Yango mentioned, nerfing someone's base attack speed is pretty critical, even by the small amount.
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
kainzero
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States5211 Posts
January 16 2013 19:38 GMT
#305
On January 17 2013 04:01 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2013 04:00 kainzero wrote:
speaking of the ezreal nerf, was the graves AS nerf really that bad? i hardly ever see him being played nowadays.

A change of 0.1 BAT is quite significant, and it's effect is heavily understated.

The effect of a BAT change is magnified through every single source of attack speed you get, because all attack speed is calculated as % of base.

that's great in theory...

but i don't want to talk about theory. do people feel that he's weak now? i mean, he still has the best base stats of any AD carry, he's still tanky as hell, smokescreen is still one of the best abilities, he has an escape ability that doubles as a steroid... and yet i hardly see him played anymore.
kongoline
Profile Joined February 2012
6318 Posts
January 16 2013 19:44 GMT
#306
On January 17 2013 04:38 kainzero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2013 04:01 TheYango wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:00 kainzero wrote:
speaking of the ezreal nerf, was the graves AS nerf really that bad? i hardly ever see him being played nowadays.

A change of 0.1 BAT is quite significant, and it's effect is heavily understated.

The effect of a BAT change is magnified through every single source of attack speed you get, because all attack speed is calculated as % of base.

that's great in theory...

but i don't want to talk about theory. do people feel that he's weak now? i mean, he still has the best base stats of any AD carry, he's still tanky as hell, smokescreen is still one of the best abilities, he has an escape ability that doubles as a steroid... and yet i hardly see him played anymore.

wat? graves is 2nd most popular ad after ezreal and 5th champion overall, its all we see nowadays in tournaments are ezreals and graves every game, corki is the one who got phased out with the nerfes and new items, every pro said corki is in a bad spot right now
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
January 16 2013 19:45 GMT
#307
On January 17 2013 04:38 kainzero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2013 04:01 TheYango wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:00 kainzero wrote:
speaking of the ezreal nerf, was the graves AS nerf really that bad? i hardly ever see him being played nowadays.

A change of 0.1 BAT is quite significant, and it's effect is heavily understated.

The effect of a BAT change is magnified through every single source of attack speed you get, because all attack speed is calculated as % of base.

that's great in theory...

but i don't want to talk about theory. do people feel that he's weak now? i mean, he still has the best base stats of any AD carry, he's still tanky as hell, smokescreen is still one of the best abilities, he has an escape ability that doubles as a steroid... and yet i hardly see him played anymore.


you do realize that the escape doubling as a steroid isn't actually a positive. it forces a choice unlike Ezreal E which does bad damage as ad, thus you don't sacrifice a steroid the character is balanced around to position well.
Carrilord has arrived.
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-16 19:51:45
January 16 2013 19:48 GMT
#308
On January 17 2013 04:44 kongoline wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2013 04:38 kainzero wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:01 TheYango wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:00 kainzero wrote:
speaking of the ezreal nerf, was the graves AS nerf really that bad? i hardly ever see him being played nowadays.

A change of 0.1 BAT is quite significant, and it's effect is heavily understated.

The effect of a BAT change is magnified through every single source of attack speed you get, because all attack speed is calculated as % of base.

that's great in theory...

but i don't want to talk about theory. do people feel that he's weak now? i mean, he still has the best base stats of any AD carry, he's still tanky as hell, smokescreen is still one of the best abilities, he has an escape ability that doubles as a steroid... and yet i hardly see him played anymore.

wat? graves is 2nd most popular ad after ezreal and 5th champion overall, its all we see nowadays in tournaments are ezreals and graves every game, corki is the one who got phased out with the nerfes and new items, every pro said corki is in a bad spot right now

Haven't seen a lot of Graves in NA recently, unless people are doing Lulu/Graves to push a lane hard. I feel like I've seen way more Cait/Vayne/Twitch than Graves.

Edit: And MF
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
January 16 2013 19:49 GMT
#309
On January 17 2013 04:38 kainzero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2013 04:01 TheYango wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:00 kainzero wrote:
speaking of the ezreal nerf, was the graves AS nerf really that bad? i hardly ever see him being played nowadays.

A change of 0.1 BAT is quite significant, and it's effect is heavily understated.

The effect of a BAT change is magnified through every single source of attack speed you get, because all attack speed is calculated as % of base.

that's great in theory...

but i don't want to talk about theory. do people feel that he's weak now? i mean, he still has the best base stats of any AD carry, he's still tanky as hell, smokescreen is still one of the best abilities, he has an escape ability that doubles as a steroid... and yet i hardly see him played anymore.

Except Range and Attack Speed, which are some of the worst of any ADC.

His base AS is actually by far the worst of any AD carry, at 0.625. This means that he benefits less from +AS (including that gained from levels) than other AD carries - which is also what Yango is pointing out about Ezreal's nerf that is easily overlooked.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
January 16 2013 19:50 GMT
#310
"Hey I'll first pick Swain so I can train my last-hitting." *Enemy locks Mordekaiser.*
Why are people so meaaaan? :<

That was hell. Why don't they pick AD champs instead, so I can use my AD marks, armour yellows/quints page and right-click them to death while they can't nuke the wave down? League players not fickle enough.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23382 Posts
January 16 2013 19:51 GMT
#311
but then ez gets 50% attack speed all the time for being the prodigal gay blondie
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
January 16 2013 19:52 GMT
#312
On January 17 2013 04:36 Slayer91 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

On January 16 2013 12:43 NeoIllusions wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2013 12:39 Zooper31 wrote:
•Monkey's Agility ◦Now additionally increases Udyr's armor and magic resist by 4% per stack


Can I finally play udyr again?!


Tankiness was never Udyrs prob...


Simple thought experiment here
-Udyr is now invulnerable to all damage
Obviously the most powerful champion in the game bar none
Scaling down
Udyr now has -50% damage reduction from all sources at all times
same deal
and we keep scaling down and you see tankiness is directly associated with viability of udyr. You can outrun basically everything and small % uptime of CC spells are only significant if you are losing so much hp in that time that you cannot continue chasing. This leads us to the realization that ALL udyrs potential problems come from tankiness. Which is why people build mostly tank items.

However mobility items and damage items are important to a point
-mobility reduces time taken to reach target, reducing incoming damage and making ganking easier
-a small amount of damage items significantly improve your damage output and dueling potential due to your massive ad steriod on R (95ish), and doubling your damage output is the same as doubling your tankiness for dueling but it's much easier to go from 100 DPS to 200 DPS, say, than from 3k hp to 6k hp. Obviously we skew about 50% more to the tanky side because you have to survive potential burst damage that will target you if you are squishy enough to kill you, so if you're tanky enough to avoid focusing you down as a viable option (this is a combination of tank stats AND timing and playing with your team, if its 5v1 it's always best to focus the 1 dude no matter how tanky he is)

Other comments:
"it helps tiger udyr more"
this is definitely wrong. A 12% steriod on your resists means the more hp and resists you have, the better it gets. Pheonix basically relies on a critical mass of tankiness to dive the targets you want to dive. You basically have to drive through a brick wall and if that 12% resists is like 25ish armour and mr it might leave you at 70% hp instead of 50 or 60% (depending on poke and shield usage, for example) which might be enough to continue diving but at 50% you can't 1v1 anyone and people can start using ignite on you and stuff.
Tiger udyr has more scaling later on damage (especially hitting 2 Q's in a row when first going in on a squishy) and bursts harder meaning you tend to build more damage and simply bear stun+q is noticable, while pheonix udyr you want at least 3 hits of r and preferably 5 seconds+ of aoe pheonix damage meaning you're in for the long hall.

"shyvana is less tanky than udyr"
this is downright ignorant. Udyr has a 6 second shield for 200 damage shielded. The later the game goes, the less significant this is, since heavy resist stacking is extremely hard, hp scales up tons just from leveling and is everywhere on items. Shyvanas flat magic resist boost of 40 mr/armour at for example 4k hp when you dragon form in is really strong. Also a shield scales the longer the fight lasts. Trying to focus down a shyvana who jumps in is MUCH harder than focusing down an udyr. Combine that with the fact that If you focus shyvana you focused someone who used her main burst with W R E Q, while you can kill an udyr before he does anything at all.

As scip rightly pointed out, udyr needs to punch people. ALL udyr can do is punch people. The only damage he has not based on auto attacks is the 67 DPS from the pheonix stance activation. EVERYTHING else he does is based on melee autoing people, and any passive threat he has to zone people is purely based on threat of running in and punching you, so the more people you can ignore to go in and do that the more of a threat you are.

The more general problem I have with Neo's statement is that it implies that balancing a champion requires making his kit well-rounded and "fixing his problems". It's very possible to have champion kits that are extremely powerful but also extremely lopsided--Riot just tends not to balance this way because they prefer well-rounded champion kits, but it also does not preclude the possibility of changes that further improve a champ's strengths significantly helping them out.
Moderator
kongoline
Profile Joined February 2012
6318 Posts
January 16 2013 19:53 GMT
#313
On January 17 2013 04:48 onlywonderboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2013 04:44 kongoline wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:38 kainzero wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:01 TheYango wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:00 kainzero wrote:
speaking of the ezreal nerf, was the graves AS nerf really that bad? i hardly ever see him being played nowadays.

A change of 0.1 BAT is quite significant, and it's effect is heavily understated.

The effect of a BAT change is magnified through every single source of attack speed you get, because all attack speed is calculated as % of base.

that's great in theory...

but i don't want to talk about theory. do people feel that he's weak now? i mean, he still has the best base stats of any AD carry, he's still tanky as hell, smokescreen is still one of the best abilities, he has an escape ability that doubles as a steroid... and yet i hardly see him played anymore.

wat? graves is 2nd most popular ad after ezreal and 5th champion overall, its all we see nowadays in tournaments are ezreals and graves every game, corki is the one who got phased out with the nerfes and new items, every pro said corki is in a bad spot right now

Haven't seen a lot of Graves in NA recently, unless people are doing Lulu/Graves to push a lane hard. I feel like I've seen way more Cait/Vayne/Twitch than Graves.

http://www.lolking.net/champions/graves&region=na&league=gold#statistics
graves is played >25% of games across all elo in NA
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
January 16 2013 19:55 GMT
#314
On January 17 2013 04:53 kongoline wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2013 04:48 onlywonderboy wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:44 kongoline wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:38 kainzero wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:01 TheYango wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:00 kainzero wrote:
speaking of the ezreal nerf, was the graves AS nerf really that bad? i hardly ever see him being played nowadays.

A change of 0.1 BAT is quite significant, and it's effect is heavily understated.

The effect of a BAT change is magnified through every single source of attack speed you get, because all attack speed is calculated as % of base.

that's great in theory...

but i don't want to talk about theory. do people feel that he's weak now? i mean, he still has the best base stats of any AD carry, he's still tanky as hell, smokescreen is still one of the best abilities, he has an escape ability that doubles as a steroid... and yet i hardly see him played anymore.

wat? graves is 2nd most popular ad after ezreal and 5th champion overall, its all we see nowadays in tournaments are ezreals and graves every game, corki is the one who got phased out with the nerfes and new items, every pro said corki is in a bad spot right now

Haven't seen a lot of Graves in NA recently, unless people are doing Lulu/Graves to push a lane hard. I feel like I've seen way more Cait/Vayne/Twitch than Graves.

http://www.lolking.net/champions/graves&region=na&league=gold#statistics
graves is played >25% of games across all elo in NA

I was talking about pro play, didn't realize we were talking about soloq
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
thenexusp
Profile Joined May 2009
United States3721 Posts
January 16 2013 19:58 GMT
#315
If graves is still being played a good amount in solo queue I don't really see a problem :\
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
January 16 2013 19:58 GMT
#316
On January 17 2013 04:24 Slusher wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2013 04:19 Berailfor wrote:
I don't really like this patch. They didn't address some things that were larger issues like Khazix W. And they nerf champions based on their pub stomping capabilities, not their viability in pro matches (ie talon). And they make changes that are just straight odd. Riot, "I just think that Ezreals attack speed is a litttllee bit too fast. Let's nerf it by the most insignificant amount ever!"

I guess I'll just be happy about the turret priority.


the nerf to Khazix passive is actually a decent nerf to w, non passive charged W really isn't as bad as people think.

and the Bruiser mid padigrim shift has far more to do with the new arp calculations and armor gold value than BC.


It actually has very little to do with the new calculations/armor values, and everything to do with community perceptions. For almost the entire laning phase the changes actually favor the AP mid in Season 3:

Season 2:
Total Opponent Armor w/ Chain Vest @9: 45 (Chain Vest) + 45 (Base Armor) + 6 (Masteries) + 12.7 (Runes) = 108.7 Armor
Armor Penetration with Brutalizer, Runes, and Masteries: 1.67*9 + 3.33*3 + 15 + 6 = 52 (and 10% Penetration)
Total Effective Armor: (108.7 - 52) * .9 = 51 Armor

Season 3:
Total Opponent Armor w/ Chain Vest @9: 40 (Chain Vest) + 45 (Base Armor) + 5 (Masteries) + 12.7 (Runes) = 102.7 Armor
Armor Penetration with Brutalizer, Runes, and Masteries: 1.28*9 + 2.56*3 + 10 + 5 = 34.2 (and 8% Penetration)
Total Effective Armor: (102.7 - 34.2) * .9 = 63 Armor

The sudden surge of AD assassins mid has everything to do with Black Cleaver breaking down the conventions and assumptions of the community. The realization that AD assassins could crush many of the popular APs reached critical mass because of Black Cleaver, and the idea has persisted past the nerfs not because of any mechanical changes between the seasons but because it's been true all along.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
January 16 2013 19:58 GMT
#317
On January 17 2013 04:53 kongoline wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2013 04:48 onlywonderboy wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:44 kongoline wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:38 kainzero wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:01 TheYango wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:00 kainzero wrote:
speaking of the ezreal nerf, was the graves AS nerf really that bad? i hardly ever see him being played nowadays.

A change of 0.1 BAT is quite significant, and it's effect is heavily understated.

The effect of a BAT change is magnified through every single source of attack speed you get, because all attack speed is calculated as % of base.

that's great in theory...

but i don't want to talk about theory. do people feel that he's weak now? i mean, he still has the best base stats of any AD carry, he's still tanky as hell, smokescreen is still one of the best abilities, he has an escape ability that doubles as a steroid... and yet i hardly see him played anymore.

wat? graves is 2nd most popular ad after ezreal and 5th champion overall, its all we see nowadays in tournaments are ezreals and graves every game, corki is the one who got phased out with the nerfes and new items, every pro said corki is in a bad spot right now

Haven't seen a lot of Graves in NA recently, unless people are doing Lulu/Graves to push a lane hard. I feel like I've seen way more Cait/Vayne/Twitch than Graves.

http://www.lolking.net/champions/graves&region=na&league=gold#statistics
graves is played >25% of games across all elo in NA


Graves is the AD you play when you don't like playing AD.
Freeeeeeedom
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12705 Posts
January 16 2013 20:00 GMT
#318
On January 17 2013 04:58 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2013 04:53 kongoline wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:48 onlywonderboy wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:44 kongoline wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:38 kainzero wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:01 TheYango wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:00 kainzero wrote:
speaking of the ezreal nerf, was the graves AS nerf really that bad? i hardly ever see him being played nowadays.

A change of 0.1 BAT is quite significant, and it's effect is heavily understated.

The effect of a BAT change is magnified through every single source of attack speed you get, because all attack speed is calculated as % of base.

that's great in theory...

but i don't want to talk about theory. do people feel that he's weak now? i mean, he still has the best base stats of any AD carry, he's still tanky as hell, smokescreen is still one of the best abilities, he has an escape ability that doubles as a steroid... and yet i hardly see him played anymore.

wat? graves is 2nd most popular ad after ezreal and 5th champion overall, its all we see nowadays in tournaments are ezreals and graves every game, corki is the one who got phased out with the nerfes and new items, every pro said corki is in a bad spot right now

Haven't seen a lot of Graves in NA recently, unless people are doing Lulu/Graves to push a lane hard. I feel like I've seen way more Cait/Vayne/Twitch than Graves.

http://www.lolking.net/champions/graves&region=na&league=gold#statistics
graves is played >25% of games across all elo in NA


Graves is the AD you play when you don't like playing AD.

This is very true.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
kongoline
Profile Joined February 2012
6318 Posts
January 16 2013 20:01 GMT
#319
On January 17 2013 04:55 onlywonderboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2013 04:53 kongoline wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:48 onlywonderboy wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:44 kongoline wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:38 kainzero wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:01 TheYango wrote:
On January 17 2013 04:00 kainzero wrote:
speaking of the ezreal nerf, was the graves AS nerf really that bad? i hardly ever see him being played nowadays.

A change of 0.1 BAT is quite significant, and it's effect is heavily understated.

The effect of a BAT change is magnified through every single source of attack speed you get, because all attack speed is calculated as % of base.

that's great in theory...

but i don't want to talk about theory. do people feel that he's weak now? i mean, he still has the best base stats of any AD carry, he's still tanky as hell, smokescreen is still one of the best abilities, he has an escape ability that doubles as a steroid... and yet i hardly see him played anymore.

wat? graves is 2nd most popular ad after ezreal and 5th champion overall, its all we see nowadays in tournaments are ezreals and graves every game, corki is the one who got phased out with the nerfes and new items, every pro said corki is in a bad spot right now

Haven't seen a lot of Graves in NA recently, unless people are doing Lulu/Graves to push a lane hard. I feel like I've seen way more Cait/Vayne/Twitch than Graves.

http://www.lolking.net/champions/graves&region=na&league=gold#statistics
graves is played >25% of games across all elo in NA

I was talking about pro play, didn't realize we were talking about soloq

http://imgur.com/a/L7M9L#0
from riots qualifier, dont have statistics from ogn but im i've seen plenty of graves there too, 0 corkis though

Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
January 16 2013 20:06 GMT
#320
On January 17 2013 04:10 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2013 03:54 Ketara wrote:
People need to figure things out and all that sure, but sometimes things really are broken and need to be fixed quickly. If the original Black Cleaver had been around for 3 months, Riot would have lost players because it would have been all AD all the time.

You're essentially using BC as a strawman at this point.

Things like Black Cleaver, release Leblanc, etc. represent balance errors on the level of "this never should have gotten out of PBE". Nobody is saying those should stay in the game. But the thing is, it's horribly disingenuous to treat those as the standard, because a) those are extremely rare (I could probably think of maybe 5 such over-the-top things that came out during the entire time I've been playing LoL), and b) they're extremely obvious when they happen. When something is that out of whack, you know it.

There's no sense applying an overall development paradigm that is tailored toward such ridiculous things when they're by far the exception rather than the norm.

Show nested quote +
On January 17 2013 03:54 Ketara wrote:
I think it is very funny that you guys are saying Ezreal nerfs are over the top the morning they come out and simultaniously saying that Riot should wait to pass judgement on things until there's been enough time to see if something is really broken. Very hypocritical and a huge double standard.

Hardly. There's no hypocrisy here because they're two very different judgments.

Saying the Ezreal change is over the top is an evaluation of how big a change is. That's an extremely easy evaluation to make.

Riot's job is to decide what needs to be changed, and where it needs to be changed. Those evaluations are FAR harder than making a judgment on how large a particular change is.

To use a hyperbolic example--anyone can tell you that adding +20 seconds to the CD on a champ's Q spell is a big change. But it's a much harder for you to decide in the grand scheme of things that such a change is necessary and explain WHY it's necessary.


I don't disagree with you. Some things are obviously broken. Some things are not. Some things could probably wait a while to see if they need tweaking. Hell, I was surprised at the Ezreal nerf, I thought he was alright at this point.

What I am trying to say is that people jumping on a patch the day of and saying Riot has no idea what it's doing and should hire people who aren't complete idiots (like the poster below your post) are overreacting. Maybe it's a bad change, maybe it's a good change. I don't know. You don't know. And you don't have the credentials to act like you do know, or at the very least, not any more than Riot does.

So take your own advice. Wait a while, stop pretending LoL is suddenly the worst game on the planet. All that sort of conversation does is make the thread a pile of garbage when it could actually be discussing something worthwhile.

Like for example at one point pages ago there was a discussion on whether or not the jungle changes make hard carry junglers who just farm all day more viable. That is an interesting topic. Whether or not Riot has any idea what it's doing and you knowing better than them is not.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
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