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United States23745 Posts
On January 17 2013 03:52 kongoline wrote:
^
he relied purely on broken dfg to be viable now hes outclassed by pretty much every other mid, the fact his lolking stats are horrible (popularity and winrate) and pretty much nobody plays him in tournaments anymore confirms it
Just because a champ isn't played doesn't mean he's not viable, correlation doesn't prove causation. There are better picks, but I don't think he's in bad of a state if you make him out to be. Also changing DFG wasn't Riot intentionally nerfing Gragas.
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I personally like Riot's rapid-fire patch style.
Think of it like Magic: the Gathering releasing a new set of cards rather than a balance patch. They just want to "rotate" the game every month or 2.
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On January 17 2013 03:55 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:52 kongoline wrote:
^
he relied purely on broken dfg to be viable now hes outclassed by pretty much every other mid, the fact his lolking stats are horrible (popularity and winrate) and pretty much nobody plays him in tournaments anymore confirms it Just because a champ isn't played doesn't mean he's not viable, correlation doesn't imply causation. There are better picks, but I don't think he's in bad of a state if you make him out to be. Also changing DFG wasn't Riot intentionally nerfing Gragas.
Actually correlation does imply causation. It just doesn't prove it. But you will usually use correlation as an indicator to look for possible causes. Nobody playing a champion does imply he is bad, but it's by no means proof.
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speaking of the ezreal nerf, was the graves AS nerf really that bad? i hardly ever see him being played nowadays.
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United States23745 Posts
On January 17 2013 03:59 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:55 onlywonderboy wrote:On January 17 2013 03:52 kongoline wrote:
^
he relied purely on broken dfg to be viable now hes outclassed by pretty much every other mid, the fact his lolking stats are horrible (popularity and winrate) and pretty much nobody plays him in tournaments anymore confirms it Just because a champ isn't played doesn't mean he's not viable, correlation doesn't imply causation. There are better picks, but I don't think he's in bad of a state if you make him out to be. Also changing DFG wasn't Riot intentionally nerfing Gragas. Actually correlation does imply causation. It just doesn't prove it. But you will usually use correlation as an indicator to look for possible causes. Nobody playing a champion does imply he is bad, but it's by no means proof.
Yes, that is what I meant. Changed to better fit that view point.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 17 2013 03:56 TheLink wrote:
I personally like Riot's rapid-fire patch style.
Think of it like Magic: the Gathering releasing a new set of cards rather than a balance patch. They just want to "rotate" the game every month or 2.
That's a pretty poor analogy because MtG has zero balance changes to the game between set releases of 3 month cycles (barring cards that are so problematic that they get banned). This means that each set release can adequately respond to balance issues in the previous set based on 3 months of properly collecting data on how a given version of the game is supposed to play.
Riot makes minor alterations to the game ever 2-3 weeks--which is far too fast to collect any meaningful data on balance. People simply do not figure out the game that quickly so any balance changes made in such a short period of time are totally inconsequential to actually aiding balance--they only serve to respond to the short-term perceptions of balance from the community, which very frequently do not reflect truly what the issues of that version are.
This issue is magnified when Riot makes frequent changes after such a large patch, because a large change like the S3 patch means its even LESS likely that the community actually legitimately has an opinion that properly represents how the game is balanced, and is more likely that Riot is simply nerfing in response to bandwagoning and FotMs.
On January 17 2013 04:00 kainzero wrote:
speaking of the ezreal nerf, was the graves AS nerf really that bad? i hardly ever see him being played nowadays.
A change of 0.1 BAT is quite significant, and it's effect is heavily understated.
The effect of a BAT change is magnified through every single source of attack speed you get, because all attack speed is calculated as % of base.
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* Muting a player will now mute that player's emote sounds
Biggest nerf to Kogmaw and Lux 2013
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speaking of magic, it's kind of cool how some of their cards are essentially balance patches designed to counter the OP card of the previous set
it would be like if Riot was only allowed to balance the game by adding new items (which is kind of what they did to balance teemo on TT)
Sometimes WotC would preemptively release a balance patch card "just in case" a strategy turns out to be completely OP. It doesn't work in LoL of course but it would be kind of cool if it did~
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United States23745 Posts
On January 17 2013 04:04 thenexusp wrote:
speaking of magic, it's kind of cool how some of their cards are essentially balance patches designed to counter the OP card of the previous set
it would be like if Riot was only allowed to balance the game by adding new items (which is kind of what they did to balance teemo on TT)
Sometimes WotC would preemptively release a balance patch card "just in case" a strategy turns out to be completely OP. It doesn't work in LoL of course but it would be kind of cool if it did~
I think that's kind of what they are attempting to do with the Arm+AP item that's going to build into Hourglass, to counter ADs mid. I have mixed feelings on this practice.
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On January 17 2013 04:02 Knighthawkbro wrote:
* Muting a player will now mute that player's emote sounds
Biggest nerf to Kogmaw and Lux 2013
No, why? I want my money back 
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United States47024 Posts
On January 17 2013 03:54 Ketara wrote:
People need to figure things out and all that sure, but sometimes things really are broken and need to be fixed quickly. If the original Black Cleaver had been around for 3 months, Riot would have lost players because it would have been all AD all the time.
You're essentially using BC as a strawman at this point.
Things like Black Cleaver, release Leblanc, etc. represent balance errors on the level of "this never should have gotten out of PBE". Nobody is saying those should stay in the game. But the thing is, it's horribly disingenuous to treat those as the standard, because a) those are extremely rare (I could probably think of maybe 5 such over-the-top things that came out during the entire time I've been playing LoL), and b) they're extremely obvious when they happen. When something is that out of whack, you know it.
There's no sense applying an overall development paradigm that is tailored toward such ridiculous things when they're by far the exception rather than the norm.
On January 17 2013 03:54 Ketara wrote:
I think it is very funny that you guys are saying Ezreal nerfs are over the top the morning they come out and simultaniously saying that Riot should wait to pass judgement on things until there's been enough time to see if something is really broken. Very hypocritical and a huge double standard.
Hardly. There's no hypocrisy here because they're two very different judgments.
Saying the Ezreal change is over the top is an evaluation of how big a change is. That's an extremely easy evaluation to make.
Riot's job is to decide what needs to be changed, and where it needs to be changed. Those evaluations are FAR harder than making a judgment on how large a particular change is.
To use a hyperbolic example--anyone can tell you that adding +20 seconds to the CD on a champ's Q spell is a big change. But it's a much harder for you to decide in the grand scheme of things that such a change is necessary and explain WHY it's necessary.
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The biggest thing that bugs me is what Yango brought up, was Riot nerfing/buffing, what the community "thought" was op'd, or underpowered, not actually what is op'd.
Why doesn't Riot actually hire some form of a David Kim, someone with actual game knowledge >.>
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On January 17 2013 03:59 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:55 onlywonderboy wrote:On January 17 2013 03:52 kongoline wrote:
^
he relied purely on broken dfg to be viable now hes outclassed by pretty much every other mid, the fact his lolking stats are horrible (popularity and winrate) and pretty much nobody plays him in tournaments anymore confirms it Just because a champ isn't played doesn't mean he's not viable, correlation doesn't imply causation. There are better picks, but I don't think he's in bad of a state if you make him out to be. Also changing DFG wasn't Riot intentionally nerfing Gragas. Actually correlation does imply causation. It just doesn't prove it. But you will usually use correlation as an indicator to look for possible causes. Nobody playing a champion does imply he is bad, but it's by no means proof.
I'm going to be pedantic, but the term "implies" or "implication" in logic has a slightly different meaning. A logical implication is not a simple suggestion that something might be so (in fact, the dictionary definition of imply isn't either), but an assertion that given one valid statement another statement is also valid. Or:
If P, then Q.
If you've taken any logic or certain math courses in the past, then that should be a fairly familiar construct. That's logical implication, and that's the sort of implication that "Correlation does not imply causation" refers to.
On January 17 2013 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:
The biggest thing that bugs me is what Yango brought up, was Riot nerfing/buffing, what the community "thought" was op'd, or underpowered, not actually what is op'd.
Why doesn't Riot actually hire some form of a David Kim, someone with actual game knowledge >.>
They did hire Jatt. He might not be David Kim, but he's better than nothing.
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I mean I like the sentiment but the track record isn't exactly something that I'd be jumping at to copy
then again they copied sc2 ladder despite a terrible track record so who knows.
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I don't really like this patch. They didn't address some things that were larger issues like Khazix W. And they nerf champions based on their pub stomping capabilities, not their viability in pro matches (ie talon). And they make changes that are just straight odd. Riot, "I just think that Ezreals attack speed is a litttllee bit too fast. Let's nerf it by the most insignificant amount ever!"
I guess I'll just be happy about the turret priority.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 17 2013 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:
The biggest thing that bugs me is what Yango brought up, was Riot nerfing/buffing, what the community "thought" was op'd, or underpowered, not actually what is op'd.
Why doesn't Riot actually hire some form of a David Kim, someone with actual game knowledge >.>
Riot actually has a pretty good track record of hiring players who previously played at quite a high level.
The problem is that very few of them actually seem like they end up as designers.
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On January 17 2013 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:
The biggest thing that bugs me is what Yango brought up, was Riot nerfing/buffing, what the community "thought" was op'd, or underpowered, not actually what is op'd.
Why doesn't Riot actually hire some form of a David Kim, someone with actual game knowledge >.>
I personally prefer a game of discovering hidden OP's. It's what made DotA so fun when it first came out, it's what made Magic so fun all those years ago (before theory developed to where it is today). Most games spend their early days discovering new aspects of strategy and theory of the game and Riot's policy of rapid-change (not balance, just change, like this ez nerf) is preserving that.
I mean all it took was Black Cleaver to be broken for a few weeks and our attitude to laning has shifted immensely. Mid is no longer the "AP mid" lane. It's a lane that belongs to mages who need blue buff, mobile assassins who can prey on mages and serious roamers/semi-globals. By rapidly changing everything you get large advances in overall strategy, even if they fall out a bit (like the counter-jungling phase) they are still skills that LoL players will pick up and advance the game.
Seriously though, how did we all miss Cris' mid Riven domination 6 months ago and not notice until the Black Cleaver shit?
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On January 17 2013 04:19 Berailfor wrote:
I don't really like this patch. They didn't address some things that were larger issues like Khazix W. And they nerf champions based on their pub stomping capabilities, not their viability in pro matches (ie talon). And they make changes that are just straight odd. Riot, "I just think that Ezreals attack speed is a litttllee bit too fast. Let's nerf it by the most insignificant amount ever!"
I guess I'll just be happy about the turret priority.
the nerf to Khazix passive is actually a decent nerf to w, non passive charged W really isn't as bad as people think.
and the Bruiser mid padigrim shift has far more to do with the new arp calculations and armor gold value than BC.
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No way. David Kim is not better and has no clue of what he's doing sometimes.
They just need to get more input from the pro players, that's all.
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On January 17 2013 04:21 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:
The biggest thing that bugs me is what Yango brought up, was Riot nerfing/buffing, what the community "thought" was op'd, or underpowered, not actually what is op'd.
Why doesn't Riot actually hire some form of a David Kim, someone with actual game knowledge >.> Riot actually has a pretty good track record of hiring players who previously played at quite a high level. The problem is that very few of them actually seem like they end up as designers.
yeah, they hire old pros, but they don't use um for balance design. Then again Riots have had a history of balancing for the lower levels, instead of just only highest level of play.
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EPT
