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United States23745 Posts
On January 17 2013 02:56 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 02:44 TheYango wrote:On January 17 2013 02:35 OutlaW- wrote:
Imagine if Riot didn't nerf Soraka, imagine if Riot didn't nerf Janna and imagine if Riot didn't nerf Sona. We'd have 5 broken supports (soraka janna blitz nunu sona) + Lulu who I think is really strong as well and then some niche supports like Leona and it'd be pretty perfect IMO. The way this is going every time a support will be considered the best (considered being the important word) he will be nerfed This happens with every other role as well, not just support. Look at the pool of AD carries. Perennially, there's always been a "top 3", Riot just nerfs the "most OP" one each time. I want your opinion on the Ezreal nerfs. Just because a champion is very popular doesn't mean he should be nerfed imo, and Ezreal has had a ~50% winrate recently..
I feel like he needed something, like a CD increase on Arcane Shift. He was an incredibly safe pick, but was also really strong. I think if you're going to make a pick that's safe in almost any situation you should have to sacrifice some power in order to compensate.
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Idk, i think that's good considering it's a team game.
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Ezreal will always be strong because of his kit.
He has an extremely good escape tool.
He has a global ult that can be used to snipe or farm at range.
Mystic Shot gives him good poke and good CSing ability.
And he has an AS steroid that helps him push towers.
As long as his kit is that well rounded he will always be a strong ADC, even with nerfs like this.
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Also keep in mind he gets free 50% AS when AS was made more expensive across the board.
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I think it'd be kind of cool to see what would happen if Riot just did zero balance changes for like three months. Announce before hand that they're not gonna do any balance changes and let the community figure out stuff. Would be interesting to see if champion pools would stagnate or diversify.
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On January 17 2013 03:17 overt wrote:
I think it'd be kind of cool to see what would happen if Riot just did zero balance changes for like three months. Announce before hand that they're not gonna do any balance changes and let the community figure out stuff. Would be interesting to see if champion pools would stagnate or diversify.
I agree so much. Riot is a control freak, though, they would never let go for 3 months (especially with how serious they are about season 3 and being pro)
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On January 17 2013 02:35 OutlaW- wrote:
Imagine if Riot didn't nerf Soraka, imagine if Riot didn't nerf Janna and imagine if Riot didn't nerf Sona. We'd have 5 broken supports (soraka janna blitz nunu sona) + Lulu who I think is really strong as well and then some niche supports like Leona and it'd be pretty perfect IMO. The way this is going every time a support will be considered the best (considered being the important word) he will be nerfed
But then Nunu wouldn't be as strong as he is. Part of his strength right now is the weakness of Raka, Sona, and Janna, who all gave him fits in lane. That's part of how he became a support instead of counter-jungler God.
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I think you guys are nuts for thinking right after so many item and jungle and mastery and summoner changes that they aren't going to be tweaking things for a little while.
I guess they could have left Black Cleaver and Flask out without nerfing them for 3 months, that would have been great!
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On January 17 2013 03:20 Lounge wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 02:35 OutlaW- wrote:
Imagine if Riot didn't nerf Soraka, imagine if Riot didn't nerf Janna and imagine if Riot didn't nerf Sona. We'd have 5 broken supports (soraka janna blitz nunu sona) + Lulu who I think is really strong as well and then some niche supports like Leona and it'd be pretty perfect IMO. The way this is going every time a support will be considered the best (considered being the important word) he will be nerfed But then Nunu wouldn't be as strong as he is. Part of his strength right now is the weakness of Raka, Sona, and Janna, who all gave him fits in lane. That's part of how he became a support instead of counter-jungler God.
That's my point. He wouldn't be broken, he would be balanced, because everyone else is just as broken as he is. All of the champions would have some broken quirk/mechanics that would make them interesting and good picks in certain situations, making the game balanced and in my opinion more exciting.
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On January 17 2013 03:18 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:17 overt wrote:
I think it'd be kind of cool to see what would happen if Riot just did zero balance changes for like three months. Announce before hand that they're not gonna do any balance changes and let the community figure out stuff. Would be interesting to see if champion pools would stagnate or diversify. I agree so much. Riot is a control freak, though, they would never let go for 3 months (especially with how serious they are about season 3 and being pro)
It could work in their favor. If picks/bans stayed pretty much the same they could just say, "see if we don't balance this game it'll just stagnate." But yeah I realize that it won't actually happen.
On January 17 2013 03:21 Ketara wrote:
I think you guys are nuts for thinking right after so many item and jungle and mastery and summoner changes that they aren't going to be tweaking things for a little while.
I guess they could have left Black Cleaver and Flask out without nerfing them for 3 months, that would have been great!
I've suggested this before. I'm pretty sure other people have as well. Also, pre-season is like the best time to do something like this since you won't need to balance for any tournaments.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 17 2013 02:56 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 02:44 TheYango wrote:On January 17 2013 02:35 OutlaW- wrote:
Imagine if Riot didn't nerf Soraka, imagine if Riot didn't nerf Janna and imagine if Riot didn't nerf Sona. We'd have 5 broken supports (soraka janna blitz nunu sona) + Lulu who I think is really strong as well and then some niche supports like Leona and it'd be pretty perfect IMO. The way this is going every time a support will be considered the best (considered being the important word) he will be nerfed This happens with every other role as well, not just support. Look at the pool of AD carries. Perennially, there's always been a "top 3", Riot just nerfs the "most OP" one each time. I want your opinion on the Ezreal nerfs. Just because a champion is very popular doesn't mean he should be nerfed imo, and Ezreal has had a ~50% winrate recently..
I can understand Riot's desire to nerf him. I think they're underestimating how big a change hitting base attack speed is.
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Actually pre-season is the time when you go crazy with balance changes and see what works and what doesn't. Before tournaments you want to make minimal balance changes, otherwise you might invalidate some pro's long preparation or secret strats.
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On January 17 2013 03:21 Ketara wrote:
I think you guys are nuts for thinking right after so many item and jungle and mastery and summoner changes that they aren't going to be tweaking things for a little while.
I guess they could have left Black Cleaver and Flask out without nerfing them for 3 months, that would have been great!
I would rather have a bunch of minor changes than the knee-jerk reactions that are so typical of Riot. If a champion is "OP", I'd rather they make extremely small nerfs to ancillary stats or skills while leaving the powerful stuff intact. Riot has said this is their philosophy on nerfs (keeping stuff "fun" or whatever) but their patch notes suggest otherwise. Nerfing skill ranges and cooldowns are better than just straight up nerfing damage but it still completely destroys some champion's viability.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 17 2013 03:21 Ketara wrote:
I think you guys are nuts for thinking right after so many item and jungle and mastery and summoner changes that they aren't going to be tweaking things for a little while.
I guess they could have left Black Cleaver and Flask out without nerfing them for 3 months, that would have been great!
It's the opposite--after a major, gamebreaking patch, you should wait LONGER before making major changes because the more changes you make at once, the longer it will take for the community to figure them out. Changes before the point where people have thoroughly figured out the patch are meaningless. Players and teams bandwagon SUPER hard, so very quickly things that are not necessarily OP will become ubiquitous, and things that are OP will go unnoticed.
The community will find things that it quickly considers OP, but because of the magnitude of the changes in such a large patch, it's virtually impossible for such opinions to accurately reflect the true state of balance. It will simply reflect people's immediate reactions.
You fix the obvious things. Minor things you leave because it's impossible to know what's "OP" and what's not so early. To date, the only thing I feel was "OP" enough in S3 patch to warrant immediate attention was Black Cleaver.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 17 2013 03:30 thenexusp wrote:
Actually pre-season is the time when you go crazy with balance changes and see what works and what doesn't. Before tournaments you want to make minimal balance changes, otherwise you might invalidate some pro's long preparation or secret strats.
There's one point that people are failing to understand:
Changes to the game made more quickly than people figure out the game are meaningless.
Riot is tweaking the game faster than people actually understand the patch, which means that they aren't responding to what's actually OP--they're responding to what people THINK is OP. The actual state of balance of this patch could be fundamentally different from what people believe it to be now, which means any changes made now could be useless, or even detrimental to the actual state of balance (this has been reflected time and time again by how Riot has buffed champs that people thought were underpowered on release, and then turned out to be overpowered later--necessitating them being nerfed to a state even WORSE than their release state--Lee Sin and Irelia being the poster children for this),
A larger patch means a longer time before people actually understand the patch--which consequently means a longer time before you can definitively make balance changes that are beneficial, and not detrimental, to the overall state of balance. The community goes along with this because of its enormous hubris in believing that collectively we understand how this version plays a month after the S3 patch, when we actually have no damn clue about how this version is actually supposed to play yet.
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Who is Rainbow Thugs? i've seen him on pro streams lately.
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On January 17 2013 03:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:30 thenexusp wrote:
Actually pre-season is the time when you go crazy with balance changes and see what works and what doesn't. Before tournaments you want to make minimal balance changes, otherwise you might invalidate some pro's long preparation or secret strats. There's one point that people are failing to understand: Changes to the game made more quickly than people figure out the game are meaningless.Riot is tweaking the game faster than people actually understand the patch, which means that they aren't responding to what's actually OP--they're responding to what people THINK is OP. The actual state of balance of this patch could be fundamentally different from what people believe it to be now, which means any changes made now could be useless, or even detrimental to the obvious state of balance (this has been reflected time and time again by how Riot has buffed champs that people thought were underpowered on release, and then turned out to be overpowered later--necessitating them being nerfed to a state even WORSE than their release state--Lee Sin and Irelia being the poster children for this), A larger patch means a longer time before people actually understand the patch--which consequently means a longer time before you can definitively make balance changes that are beneficial, and not detrimental, to the overall state of balance. The community goes along with this because of its enormous hubris in believing that collectively we understand how this version plays a month after the S3 patch, when we actually have no damn clue about how this version is actually supposed to play yet.
look what happened to gragas they make slight buff to him then nerf pretty much everything and make him trash compared to most current ap mids
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United States23745 Posts
On January 17 2013 03:31 c.Deadly wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:21 Ketara wrote:
I think you guys are nuts for thinking right after so many item and jungle and mastery and summoner changes that they aren't going to be tweaking things for a little while.
I guess they could have left Black Cleaver and Flask out without nerfing them for 3 months, that would have been great! I would rather have a bunch of minor changes than the knee-jerk reactions that are so typical of Riot. If a champion is "OP", I'd rather they make extremely small nerfs to ancillary stats or skills while leaving the powerful stuff intact. Riot has said this is their philosophy on nerfs (keeping stuff "fun" or whatever) but their patch notes suggest otherwise. Nerfing skill ranges and cooldowns are better than just straight up nerfing damage but it still completely destroys some champion's viability.
That's what they did with Kha, his nerfs seemed pretty light in comparison to the usual nerf bat they bring down. But then again people are worried that they won't be enough. I disagree though, I'd rather do a little less damage than making changes to range to that impact the way a champ plays (Diana nerfs come to mind).
On January 17 2013 03:44 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 03:37 TheYango wrote:On January 17 2013 03:30 thenexusp wrote:
Actually pre-season is the time when you go crazy with balance changes and see what works and what doesn't. Before tournaments you want to make minimal balance changes, otherwise you might invalidate some pro's long preparation or secret strats. There's one point that people are failing to understand: Changes to the game made more quickly than people figure out the game are meaningless.Riot is tweaking the game faster than people actually understand the patch, which means that they aren't responding to what's actually OP--they're responding to what people THINK is OP. The actual state of balance of this patch could be fundamentally different from what people believe it to be now, which means any changes made now could be useless, or even detrimental to the obvious state of balance (this has been reflected time and time again by how Riot has buffed champs that people thought were underpowered on release, and then turned out to be overpowered later--necessitating them being nerfed to a state even WORSE than their release state--Lee Sin and Irelia being the poster children for this), A larger patch means a longer time before people actually understand the patch--which consequently means a longer time before you can definitively make balance changes that are beneficial, and not detrimental, to the overall state of balance. The community goes along with this because of its enormous hubris in believing that collectively we understand how this version plays a month after the S3 patch, when we actually have no damn clue about how this version is actually supposed to play yet. look what happened to gragas they make slight buff to him then nerf pretty much everything and make him trash compared to most current ap mids
His nerfs weren't even that bad, it was a case of people overreacting to relatively small nerfs. He is far from "trash" compared to other mids. Maybe not as great, but certainly not trash.
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^
he relied purely on broken dfg to be viable now hes outclassed by pretty much every other mid, the fact his lolking stats are horrible (popularity and winrate) and pretty much nobody plays him in tournaments anymore confirms it
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Still think you guys are nuts.
People need to figure things out and all that sure, but sometimes things really are broken and need to be fixed quickly. If the original Black Cleaver had been around for 3 months, Riot would have lost players because it would have been all AD all the time.
I think it is very funny that you guys are saying Ezreal nerfs are over the top the morning they come out and simultaniously saying that Riot should wait to pass judgement on things until there's been enough time to see if something is really broken. Very hypocritical and a huge double standard.
I'm not saying that the Ezreal nerfs aren't over the top mind, just that maybe people shouldn't shit all over Riot every time a patch comes out. It gets old.
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EPT
