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On January 11 2013 17:12 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 15:51 HazMat wrote:
YO GUYS
FROZEN FIRST KASSADIN
THAT IS ALL What we need is an elite crew of the best minds this subforum has to offer, a team that does nothing but sit down, propose seemingly off the wall ideas, and put them to the test. A brain trust unfettered by the habits and inertia of the community at large. A place where new concepts such as this can flourish without being mercilessly shot down. A think tank, a collective entity that does not break the meta so much as transcend it. All it needs is a suitably ironic acronym and we're well on our way to a Saturday morning cartoon and a breakfast cereal.
I want in.
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On January 11 2013 17:45 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 17:12 Seuss wrote:On January 11 2013 15:51 HazMat wrote:
YO GUYS
FROZEN FIRST KASSADIN
THAT IS ALL What we need is an elite crew of the best minds this subforum has to offer, a team that does nothing but sit down, propose seemingly off the wall ideas, and put them to the test. A brain trust unfettered by the habits and inertia of the community at large. A place where new concepts such as this can flourish without being mercilessly shot down. A think tank, a collective entity that does not break the meta so much as transcend it. All it needs is a suitably ironic acronym and we're well on our way to a Saturday morning cartoon and a breakfast cereal. I want in.
lol
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
TeamLiquid
Research
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Syndicate
?
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On January 11 2013 18:02 MoonBear wrote:
TeamLiquid
Research
Operations (and)
Learning
Lab
Syndicate
?
Forum-based
Extremely
Eccentric
Discussion (and)
Experimentation
Reasearch
Society
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Let's move on to important things... so what is the breakfast cereal going to be like? It gotta have cinnamon.
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So we got T.R.O.L.L.S and F.E.E.D.E.R.S? sounds good to me
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On January 11 2013 18:02 MoonBear wrote:
TeamLiquid
Research
Operations (and)
Learning
Lab
Syndicate
?
THIS - if nothing else to give new meaning to the expression "Feed the TROLLS"
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It's late. I also realise that Shake's Frozen Fist Kassadin is being regarded as a bit of a joke. Let's tie some threads that have been bubbling on TL here the past few days together, though.
1. Assassins are threatening AD carries. Potentially enough that the previous 4 offense + 1 defense max item build could be 3 offense + 2 defense.
2. AD carries scale multiplicatively, so giving up the 4th offensive item is more than a 25% loss in power. It's a big deal, and people were debating ADCless comps around this shift.
3. How the fuck do you get to Peeladin's ADC? At max CDR you've got 3 second slow on a 3.6 second CD (limited by spells, but teamfights shouldn't be an issue) and a 50% uptime silence. Getting into melee to apply his IBG procs is simple because they're diving you, not squishy Kassadin getting into the other team. He's got R and W and IBG giving his carry ridiculous kite.
4. With this protection on the ADC, you might be able to actually run a pure offense build on them instead of 4+1. That's a huge bonus w/ multiplicative scaling. Risky though, but a lot of this may not fly in solo queue, or work quite as well.
5. The notion of offensive bruiser Kass was a weak one because his damage output was low if he had survivability, or he'd just get exploded trying to run Meleeadin. Defensive bruiser Kass can potentially shut down divey comps, and also has decent cleanup potential. Bruiser Kass seems pretty shit when trying to get onto the other team. Bruiser Kass actually has a pretty insanely good setup for peeling. Let the enemy come to Kass.
The flaws I can see are essentially getting out of the laning phase alive with Kass, but it's also a setup where I feel he could do decently on lighter farm/3rd Position, as opposed to a dominant carry role. RoA > IBG, Guise > IBG > Warmogs? I'm not a mid player by any means, and I think transitioning to a real midgame may be the fatal weakness here. Alternate thought: it may be a way to salvage a shitty Kass game - maximize your mileage on low income, rather than be a worthless underfed assassin.
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On January 11 2013 18:02 MoonBear wrote:
TeamLiquid
Research
Operations (and)
Learning
Lab
Syndicate
?
I demand to be a part of this brilliant council.
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On January 11 2013 19:02 JALbert wrote:
It's late. I also realise that Shake's Frozen Fist Kassadin is being regarded as a bit of a joke. Let's tie some threads that have been bubbling on TL here the past few days together, though.
1. Assassins are threatening AD carries. Potentially enough that the previous 4 offense + 1 defense max item build could be 3 offense + 2 defense.
2. AD carries scale multiplicatively, so giving up the 4th offensive item is more than a 25% loss in power. It's a big deal, and people were debating ADCless comps around this shift.
3. How the fuck do you get to Peeladin's ADC? At max CDR you've got 3 second slow on a 3.6 second CD (limited by spells, but teamfights shouldn't be an issue) and a 50% uptime silence. Getting into melee to apply his IBG procs is simple because they're diving you, not squishy Kassadin getting into the other team. He's got R and W and IBG giving his carry ridiculous kite.
4. With this protection on the ADC, you might be able to actually run a pure offense build on them instead of 4+1. That's a huge bonus w/ multiplicative scaling. Risky though, but a lot of this may not fly in solo queue, or work quite as well.
5. The notion of offensive bruiser Kass was a weak one because his damage output was low if he had survivability, or he'd just get exploded trying to run Meleeadin. Defensive bruiser Kass can potentially shut down divey comps, and also has decent cleanup potential. Bruiser Kass seems pretty shit when trying to get onto the other team. Bruiser Kass actually has a pretty insanely good setup for peeling. Let the enemy come to Kass.
The flaws I can see are essentially getting out of the laning phase alive with Kass, but it's also a setup where I feel he could do decently on lighter farm/3rd Position, as opposed to a dominant carry role. RoA > IBG, Guise > IBG > Warmogs? I'm not a mid player by any means, and I think transitioning to a real midgame may be the fatal weakness here. Alternate thought: it may be a way to salvage a shitty Kass game - maximize your mileage on low income, rather than be a worthless underfed assassin.
If you really want to peel you really think kassadin with Fist is the best you can do? He's got a decent slow with really short range unfortunately, but other than that the only thing in his kit conducive to peeling is a silence which unfortunately is on a slow projectile. In short, any modern assassin will have already gap closed on your AD before any of your utility hits them, and be hitting them.
why would you bother with Kassadin if wanted high uptime CC? Screw a 3 second slow, TF has a 2 second stun on a 3.6 second CD, which also happens to apply frozen fist if you're so into that.
The thing is, in a teamfight having high uptime is actually pretty unimportant. Zed isn't going to flash ult your Vayne every 3 seconds, the assassin dives and thats it. So in actuality its usually better to have something really strong to nail the assassin and maybe some nice AOE slow to make kiting the rest of their team easier. Someone like Warwick is much better peel for modern threats to your AD like Zed/Eve/Kha/Rengar/Diana because he can just stop them in their tracks instantly. If you want general peel look no farther than our old friend motherfucking Nautilus, who slows everyone plus packs a two second targeted AOE stun, unlimited roots, and a displacement move. Building a gauntlet on Kassadin isn't going to turn him into a machine like that, and nautilus can actually do that normally instead of building stuff that will make his laning a nightmare and completely nonthreatening.
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I would also like to make such a demand.
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funny how u guys complain everything dies too quick "omg assassins 100-0 everybody op nerf plz", while doublelift whines about bruisers being too tanky and impossible to kill
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On January 11 2013 20:13 kongoline wrote:
funny how u guys complain everything dies too quick "omg assassins 100-0 everybody op nerf plz", while doublelift whines about bruisers being too tanky and impossible to kill
The two are one in the same? He's complaining he can't kill bruisers as an ADC like he could before partly due to the fact that ADC can't go full glass cannon and due to better tank options while still doing damage for bruisers. People are complaining assassins and 100-0 ADC/AP mages not bruisers while others are saying this merely means people need to focus more on defensive stats than before.
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On January 11 2013 20:21 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 20:13 kongoline wrote:
funny how u guys complain everything dies too quick "omg assassins 100-0 everybody op nerf plz", while doublelift whines about bruisers being too tanky and impossible to kill The two are one in the same? He's complaining he can't kill bruisers as an ADC like he could before partly due to the fact that ADC can't go full glass cannon and due to better tank options while still doing damage for bruisers. People are complaining assassins and 100-0 ADC/AP mages not bruisers while others are saying this merely means people need to focus more on defensive stats than before.
people are blowing it out of proportion, i would say only thing what changed is that ad casters for the first time are viable while in S2 only ap assassins were viable and people are upset because meta has changed , im pretty sure fizz has still better burst than any ad assassin, if u think the game is too bursty right now look at current ogn games ad/ap carries arent replaced by assasins there but thanks to changes at least theres option to play them now which imo is fair, people should adopt and stop build 100% glass cannon in every game (also better path for cloth armor would help, atm its stupid i cant do nothing with it except tabis)
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I don't really get what you arguing about. You open with Dlift comments now say what people have been saying already. Highly confusing.
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On January 11 2013 20:11 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 19:02 JALbert wrote:
It's late. I also realise that Shake's Frozen Fist Kassadin is being regarded as a bit of a joke. Let's tie some threads that have been bubbling on TL here the past few days together, though.
1. Assassins are threatening AD carries. Potentially enough that the previous 4 offense + 1 defense max item build could be 3 offense + 2 defense.
2. AD carries scale multiplicatively, so giving up the 4th offensive item is more than a 25% loss in power. It's a big deal, and people were debating ADCless comps around this shift.
3. How the fuck do you get to Peeladin's ADC? At max CDR you've got 3 second slow on a 3.6 second CD (limited by spells, but teamfights shouldn't be an issue) and a 50% uptime silence. Getting into melee to apply his IBG procs is simple because they're diving you, not squishy Kassadin getting into the other team. He's got R and W and IBG giving his carry ridiculous kite.
4. With this protection on the ADC, you might be able to actually run a pure offense build on them instead of 4+1. That's a huge bonus w/ multiplicative scaling. Risky though, but a lot of this may not fly in solo queue, or work quite as well.
5. The notion of offensive bruiser Kass was a weak one because his damage output was low if he had survivability, or he'd just get exploded trying to run Meleeadin. Defensive bruiser Kass can potentially shut down divey comps, and also has decent cleanup potential. Bruiser Kass seems pretty shit when trying to get onto the other team. Bruiser Kass actually has a pretty insanely good setup for peeling. Let the enemy come to Kass.
The flaws I can see are essentially getting out of the laning phase alive with Kass, but it's also a setup where I feel he could do decently on lighter farm/3rd Position, as opposed to a dominant carry role. RoA > IBG, Guise > IBG > Warmogs? I'm not a mid player by any means, and I think transitioning to a real midgame may be the fatal weakness here. Alternate thought: it may be a way to salvage a shitty Kass game - maximize your mileage on low income, rather than be a worthless underfed assassin.
If you really want to peel you really think kassadin with Fist is the best you can do? He's got a decent slow with really short range unfortunately, but other than that the only thing in his kit conducive to peeling is a silence which unfortunately is on a slow projectile. In short, any modern assassin will have already gap closed on your AD before any of your utility hits them, and be hitting them. why would you bother with Kassadin if wanted high uptime CC? Screw a 3 second slow, TF has a 2 second stun on a 3.6 second CD, which also happens to apply frozen fist if you're so into that. The thing is, in a teamfight having high uptime is actually pretty unimportant. Zed isn't going to flash ult your Vayne every 3 seconds, the assassin dives and thats it. So in actuality its usually better to have something really strong to nail the assassin and maybe some nice AOE slow to make kiting the rest of their team easier. Someone like Warwick is much better peel for modern threats to your AD like Zed/Eve/Kha/Rengar/Diana because he can just stop them in their tracks instantly. If you want general peel look no farther than our old friend motherfucking Nautilus, who slows everyone plus packs a two second targeted AOE stun, unlimited roots, and a displacement move. Building a gauntlet on Kassadin isn't going to turn him into a machine like that, and nautilus can actually do that normally instead of building stuff that will make his laning a nightmare and completely nonthreatening.
Am I saying tanky Kassadin is amazing and without flaw? Heck no. That being said...
1. TF brings Gold Card defensively. This can't be used on reaction to an assasin going in any faster than Kass' Q can. (Fair point on the shitty projectile speed though). Kass brings AoE slows out the wazoo behind his silence.
2. You said "something really strong to nail the assassin and maybe some nice AoE slow to make kiting their team easier." Isn't this precisely what I'm talking about? Yeah, WW ult is amazingly good at peeling someone off your carry. It's also on an ulti CD.
3. Naut brings a lot of CC to the table, and in many (most? all?) situations will do it better than Kassadin.
Tanky Katarina would be considered pretty troll by most people if Voyboy wasn't running it, and while Kass doesn't have Kat's extreme reset mechanic, he does get a lot of bonus damage on E staying in fights. Also unlike most champs, Kass can stay with ADs that get split off or are mobile to keep peeling, and help with cleanup. Yeah, E has crap range but he's got an amazing repositioning tool with R.
IBG is really a 3rd item at best on Kass, since Sheen is pretty crap unless he's already reasonably tanky (and even then it's no great shakes). I can see Glacial Shroud being pretty easy to access early against a bruiser or AD caster in lane, though. I feel like the build sounds a lot more viable on paper than it's actually practical to make in a game, but that's what experimentation is for I suppose.
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Hey, Tabi does banner of command too!
"Oh fuck, I can't splitpush because an assassin will 1v1 me. Well, let's force one of them to PvE! You can't assassinate a promoted minion!"
About Naut what I'd dislike most in this situation is his kinda slow Q animation and slow-as-balls-why-can-I-brew-my-own-tea-before-that-damn-anchor-drops-to-the-floor auto animation (really, it you get enough MS before he gets a ton of levels worth of bonus AS you'll be able to outrun the animation and actually cancel it if he tries to auto you at max range). His "hard" cc would be far from instant, and that's pretty much what you'd need in such a situation. I'd say that Soraka's E is the kind of cc you want against assassins (good duration, medium cd (esp. if you build cdr, allowing good uptime) and above all, being instantaneous) but then Zed auto attacks your carry thrice for half his health bar... and we start looking funny at AD casters.
On January 11 2013 20:21 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 20:13 kongoline wrote:
funny how u guys complain everything dies too quick "omg assassins 100-0 everybody op nerf plz", while doublelift whines about bruisers being too tanky and impossible to kill The two are one in the same? He's complaining he can't kill bruisers as an ADC like he could before partly due to the fact that ADC can't go full glass cannon and due to better tank options while still doing damage for bruisers. People are complaining assassins and 100-0 ADC/AP mages not bruisers while others are saying this merely means people need to focus more on defensive stats than before.
How does DL build, too? Doesn't he still go 4 offense +1 defense and is actually complaining because the AD carry items got nerfed so he loses a bit of overall dps?
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On January 11 2013 21:03 Numy wrote:
I don't really get what you arguing about. You open with Dlift comments now say what people have been saying already. Highly confusing.
im not arguing im just saying people here whine about ad assassins being too strong and phasing out other roles while at current top level tanks with apc/adc are still proffered composition
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In my past month of spamming solo queue and 5s, at no moment have I thought wow ADCs are really weak right now. I have thought that "assassins" like khazix/elise are a bit broken. Riven can also be a bit overpowered, as with eve, rest are w/e. I'd still take ezreal first pick in 5s over any of those champions.
Assassins are also a lot more stronger in solo queue than in 5s, where you'll find early snowball situations much less likely. In solo queue say one team has xin jungle/khazix mid/elise top, and the other has something like mundo/ahri/shen, one mistake by the latter team during pre lv6 lane phase will most likely cost them the game, whereas even if someone like ahri/shen get fb they have no way of snowballing it.
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Well dlift also said we going to be seeing a lot of MF and/or Kog type carries hoping for late game. Frost/Blaze series seems to be following that pattern.
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EPT
