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Baa?21245 Posts
On January 09 2013 14:55 Nos- wrote:
I've played games on ADs against teams with panth/Zed or whatever assassin/AD caster hero that's popular these days. Having just GA doesn't cut it anymore. The fact that GA's active CD is so long makes it undesirable after one use. I can see why Warmogs would be the better choice because having an extra 1000 hp is better than a bit of armor that they're just gonna shred though anyway with BC + LW.
Also fuck lategame Zed what the fuck is with the damage output on his ultimate. You can't even peel the guy cause you can't target him when you ults. Makes me real sad when he just flash ults me every lategame fight and there's little to nothing anyone can do about it.
Does QSS remove the death mark?
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A ton of DotA carries build defensive items(quite a lot of defensive items at that). I didn't feel like going back to quote the Shikyo post where he apparently said that wasn't true, but it most certainly isn't, even considering just ranged carries, which is a fucking joke because 1-position = ADC, and 1 position is hardly just ranged carries.
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On January 09 2013 15:03 Xplicit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:55 Nos- wrote:
I've played games on ADs against teams with panth/Zed or whatever assassin/AD caster hero that's popular these days. Having just GA doesn't cut it anymore. The fact that GA's active CD is so long makes it undesirable after one use. I can see why Warmogs would be the better choice because having an extra 1000 hp is better than a bit of armor that they're just gonna shred though anyway with BC + LW.
Also fuck lategame Zed what the fuck is with the damage output on his ultimate. You can't even peel the guy cause you can't target him when you ults. Makes me real sad when he just flash ults me every lategame fight and there's little to nothing anyone can do about it. ^^This. I've been getting Warmog's over GA a lot in S3 on AD's and it feels really strong. 1000 hp is quite a bit, and the armor component from GA just doesn't cut it with the prevalence of cleavers and the changes to armor pen.
Would Frozen Mallet be better than Warmog's if you don't already have a tri-force?
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On January 09 2013 15:15 RebelSlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 15:03 Xplicit wrote:On January 09 2013 14:55 Nos- wrote:
I've played games on ADs against teams with panth/Zed or whatever assassin/AD caster hero that's popular these days. Having just GA doesn't cut it anymore. The fact that GA's active CD is so long makes it undesirable after one use. I can see why Warmogs would be the better choice because having an extra 1000 hp is better than a bit of armor that they're just gonna shred though anyway with BC + LW.
Also fuck lategame Zed what the fuck is with the damage output on his ultimate. You can't even peel the guy cause you can't target him when you ults. Makes me real sad when he just flash ults me every lategame fight and there's little to nothing anyone can do about it. ^^This. I've been getting Warmog's over GA a lot in S3 on AD's and it feels really strong. 1000 hp is quite a bit, and the armor component from GA just doesn't cut it with the prevalence of cleavers and the changes to armor pen. Would Frozen Mallet be better than Warmog's if you don't already have a tri-force?
If you're at 5 items, sure. But it's much less cost-efficient, and sometimes you will just need that huge HP spike. 20 damage is almost nothing and slow isn't a hard stat.
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On January 09 2013 15:07 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:55 Nos- wrote:
I've played games on ADs against teams with panth/Zed or whatever assassin/AD caster hero that's popular these days. Having just GA doesn't cut it anymore. The fact that GA's active CD is so long makes it undesirable after one use. I can see why Warmogs would be the better choice because having an extra 1000 hp is better than a bit of armor that they're just gonna shred though anyway with BC + LW.
Also fuck lategame Zed what the fuck is with the damage output on his ultimate. You can't even peel the guy cause you can't target him when you ults. Makes me real sad when he just flash ults me every lategame fight and there's little to nothing anyone can do about it. Does QSS remove the death mark?
I seem to call that the answer is no.
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United States23745 Posts
Listening to people (on a podcast) talk about League when they only have a vague understanding of it is rough. I'm not talking about mechanics, one of the guy plays LoL, but there topics of conversation were hard to listen to. They included "when is Riot going to release LoL 2", "they should focus more on making LoL a sport," and "LoL is going to die when Dota 2 is released because all the champs are free." I guess I sound a little pretentious, but to hear people talk about something I care about so much and sound so off-base made me sad.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
There's a very interesting article on inven.kr about the state of AD Carries in S3. I don't want to translate the whole thing, but the gist of it is
- In S2 it was common to see AD carries clean up fights, pulling off penta kills here and there at large tournaments.
- Players with great mechanics such as Doublelift were lauded for their ability to deal damage while kiting. The AD's role was so crucial that as a Top liner or jungler, as long as you killed the enemy AD carry before you died you've done a good job.
- In S3, the AD carry is no longer a damage-dealer. If the AD's role in S2 was to utilize positioning, kiting and using a few
spells to deal damage and kill enemies, in S3 it's degenerated to just running.
- Right now an AD carry must run. You have to run. Get hit by one skill from an AP carry or AD-caster and your HP is 1/3 to half gone. The damage coming out of AD-Castors and bruisers hurt more than 4-5 shots from an AD carry.
- The CJ vs Azubu Frost game is an example of the current state of ADs. They are spending most of the fights running away.
- In S2, bruisers had a hard timing finding a good balance between defense and offense. If you put a lot into def, you wouldn't deal enough dmg. If you got dmg items, you wouldn't survive for long. But in S3, both are easily available.
- An AD with an IE/PD/LW can no longer hurt a bruiser with BC/BT/Warmogs. They must run away trying to get shots in here and there, but the damage is miniscule, and when the CD of a gap-closing skill or stun comes back, the bruiser is on you and you are dead in an instant.
- Perhaps the bot lane will start to change to the very old kill-lane, rather than the EU-style AD-Support lane.
http://www.inven.co.kr/board/powerbbs.php?come_idx=3262&l=36
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all of this applied in season 2, AD casters are more annoying in laning but they are not necessarily better at killing ADs than APs can.
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I think the *real* problem is that assassins are too strong right now.
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On January 09 2013 15:22 Live2Win wrote:
There's a very interesting article on inven.kr about the state of AD Carries in S3. I don't want to translate the whole thing, but the gist of it is
- In S2 it was common to see AD carries clean up fights, pulling off penta kills here and there at large tournaments.
- Players with great mechanics such as Doublelift were lauded for their ability to deal damage while kiting. The AD's role was so crucial that as a Top liner or jungler, as long as you killed the enemy AD carry before you died you've done a good job.
- In S3, the AD carry is no longer a damage-dealer. If the AD's role in S2 was to utilize positioning, kiting and using a few spells to deal damage and kill enemies, in S3 it's degenerated to just running.
- Right now an AD carry must run. You have to run. Get hit by one skill from an AP carry or AD-caster and your HP is 1/3 to half gone. The damage coming out of AD-Castors and bruisers hurt more than 4-5 shots from an AD carry.
- The CJ vs Azubu Frost game is an example of the current state of ADs. They are spending most of the fights running away.
- In S2, bruisers had a hard timing finding a good balance between defense and offense. If you put a lot into def, you wouldn't deal enough dmg. If you got dmg items, you wouldn't survive for long. But in S3, both are easily available.
- An AD with an IE/PD/LW can no longer hurt a bruiser with BC/BT/Warmogs. They must run away trying to get shots in here and there, but the damage is miniscule, and when the CD of a gap-closing skill or stun comes back, the bruiser is on you and you are dead in an instant.
- Perhaps the bot lane will start to change to the very old kill-lane, rather than the EU-style AD-Support lane.
I could definitely see that happening but the role of the ranged adc isn't going to change. It could become just bruisers, ap carries and tanks. Either adc continue on their path or they become extinct imo, there isn't a happy difference with the abilities all the adc are given. They might be phased out in awhile if bruisers continue on this slope of dominating everything.
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Australia18228 Posts
On January 09 2013 15:26 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 15:22 Live2Win wrote:
There's a very interesting article on inven.kr about the state of AD Carries in S3. I don't want to translate the whole thing, but the gist of it is
- In S2 it was common to see AD carries clean up fights, pulling off penta kills here and there at large tournaments.
- Players with great mechanics such as Doublelift were lauded for their ability to deal damage while kiting. The AD's role was so crucial that as a Top liner or jungler, as long as you killed the enemy AD carry before you died you've done a good job.
- In S3, the AD carry is no longer a damage-dealer. If the AD's role in S2 was to utilize positioning, kiting and using a few spells to deal damage and kill enemies, in S3 it's degenerated to just running.
- Right now an AD carry must run. You have to run. Get hit by one skill from an AP carry or AD-caster and your HP is 1/3 to half gone. The damage coming out of AD-Castors and bruisers hurt more than 4-5 shots from an AD carry.
- The CJ vs Azubu Frost game is an example of the current state of ADs. They are spending most of the fights running away.
- In S2, bruisers had a hard timing finding a good balance between defense and offense. If you put a lot into def, you wouldn't deal enough dmg. If you got dmg items, you wouldn't survive for long. But in S3, both are easily available.
- An AD with an IE/PD/LW can no longer hurt a bruiser with BC/BT/Warmogs. They must run away trying to get shots in here and there, but the damage is miniscule, and when the CD of a gap-closing skill or stun comes back, the bruiser is on you and you are dead in an instant.
- Perhaps the bot lane will start to change to the very old kill-lane, rather than the EU-style AD-Support lane. I could definitely see that happening but the role of the ranged adc isn't going to change. It could become just bruisers, ap carries and tanks. Either adc continue on their path or they become extinct imo, there isn't a happy difference with the abilities all the adc are given. They might be phased out in awhile if bruisers continue on this slope of dominating everything.
Except Ezreal, because that guy runs and deals damage at the same time.
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As for ADs who wanna get two defensive items, it should be scimitar/GA, I don't see warmogs working. I'd get mallet way before warmogs. Cost efficiency isn't relevant.
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On January 09 2013 15:22 Live2Win wrote:There's a very interesting article on inven.kr about the state of AD Carries in S3. I don't want to translate the whole thing, but the gist of it is - In S2 it was common to see AD carries clean up fights, pulling off penta kills here and there at large tournaments. - Players with great mechanics such as Doublelift were lauded for their ability to deal damage while kiting. The AD's role was so crucial that as a Top liner or jungler, as long as you killed the enemy AD carry before you died you've done a good job. - In S3, the AD carry is no longer a damage-dealer. If the AD's role in S2 was to utilize positioning, kiting and using a few spells to deal damage and kill enemies, in S3 it's degenerated to just running. - Right now an AD carry must run. You have to run. Get hit by one skill from an AP carry or AD-caster and your HP is 1/3 to half gone. The damage coming out of AD-Castors and bruisers hurt more than 4-5 shots from an AD carry. - The CJ vs Azubu Frost game is an example of the current state of ADs. They are spending most of the fights running away. - In S2, bruisers had a hard timing finding a good balance between defense and offense. If you put a lot into def, you wouldn't deal enough dmg. If you got dmg items, you wouldn't survive for long. But in S3, both are easily available. - An AD with an IE/PD/LW can no longer hurt a bruiser with BC/BT/Warmogs. They must run away trying to get shots in here and there, but the damage is miniscule, and when the CD of a gap-closing skill or stun comes back, the bruiser is on you and you are dead in an instant. - Perhaps the bot lane will start to change to the very old kill-lane, rather than the EU-style AD-Support lane. http://www.inven.co.kr/board/powerbbs.php?come_idx=3262&l=36
This upset me when I first saw it, but then I realized that the meta shifting isn't such a bad thing. Bringing back kill lanes is something I would welcome. The only thing that (imo) MUST happen is that AD carries are still viable. If they are viable, and so are kill lanes, that would be perfect imo. Just because we've had AD carries only for a whole year doesn't mean that that's how it has to be. It's not like that's how it was before Dreamhack.
Again, I still think that we should not say anything and try to do with what we have for a few months, before ''forcing'' Riot to change things. I hate this entitled attitude.
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On January 09 2013 15:32 Inflicted_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 15:26 Zooper31 wrote:On January 09 2013 15:22 Live2Win wrote:
There's a very interesting article on inven.kr about the state of AD Carries in S3. I don't want to translate the whole thing, but the gist of it is
- In S2 it was common to see AD carries clean up fights, pulling off penta kills here and there at large tournaments.
- Players with great mechanics such as Doublelift were lauded for their ability to deal damage while kiting. The AD's role was so crucial that as a Top liner or jungler, as long as you killed the enemy AD carry before you died you've done a good job.
- In S3, the AD carry is no longer a damage-dealer. If the AD's role in S2 was to utilize positioning, kiting and using a few spells to deal damage and kill enemies, in S3 it's degenerated to just running.
- Right now an AD carry must run. You have to run. Get hit by one skill from an AP carry or AD-caster and your HP is 1/3 to half gone. The damage coming out of AD-Castors and bruisers hurt more than 4-5 shots from an AD carry.
- The CJ vs Azubu Frost game is an example of the current state of ADs. They are spending most of the fights running away.
- In S2, bruisers had a hard timing finding a good balance between defense and offense. If you put a lot into def, you wouldn't deal enough dmg. If you got dmg items, you wouldn't survive for long. But in S3, both are easily available.
- An AD with an IE/PD/LW can no longer hurt a bruiser with BC/BT/Warmogs. They must run away trying to get shots in here and there, but the damage is miniscule, and when the CD of a gap-closing skill or stun comes back, the bruiser is on you and you are dead in an instant.
- Perhaps the bot lane will start to change to the very old kill-lane, rather than the EU-style AD-Support lane. I could definitely see that happening but the role of the ranged adc isn't going to change. It could become just bruisers, ap carries and tanks. Either adc continue on their path or they become extinct imo, there isn't a happy difference with the abilities all the adc are given. They might be phased out in awhile if bruisers continue on this slope of dominating everything. Except Ezreal, because that guy runs and deals damage at the same time.
Dat be so true. Most broken of the adc...
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On January 09 2013 15:32 Inflicted_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 15:26 Zooper31 wrote:On January 09 2013 15:22 Live2Win wrote:
There's a very interesting article on inven.kr about the state of AD Carries in S3. I don't want to translate the whole thing, but the gist of it is
- In S2 it was common to see AD carries clean up fights, pulling off penta kills here and there at large tournaments.
- Players with great mechanics such as Doublelift were lauded for their ability to deal damage while kiting. The AD's role was so crucial that as a Top liner or jungler, as long as you killed the enemy AD carry before you died you've done a good job.
- In S3, the AD carry is no longer a damage-dealer. If the AD's role in S2 was to utilize positioning, kiting and using a few spells to deal damage and kill enemies, in S3 it's degenerated to just running.
- Right now an AD carry must run. You have to run. Get hit by one skill from an AP carry or AD-caster and your HP is 1/3 to half gone. The damage coming out of AD-Castors and bruisers hurt more than 4-5 shots from an AD carry.
- The CJ vs Azubu Frost game is an example of the current state of ADs. They are spending most of the fights running away.
- In S2, bruisers had a hard timing finding a good balance between defense and offense. If you put a lot into def, you wouldn't deal enough dmg. If you got dmg items, you wouldn't survive for long. But in S3, both are easily available.
- An AD with an IE/PD/LW can no longer hurt a bruiser with BC/BT/Warmogs. They must run away trying to get shots in here and there, but the damage is miniscule, and when the CD of a gap-closing skill or stun comes back, the bruiser is on you and you are dead in an instant.
- Perhaps the bot lane will start to change to the very old kill-lane, rather than the EU-style AD-Support lane. I could definitely see that happening but the role of the ranged adc isn't going to change. It could become just bruisers, ap carries and tanks. Either adc continue on their path or they become extinct imo, there isn't a happy difference with the abilities all the adc are given. They might be phased out in awhile if bruisers continue on this slope of dominating everything. Except Ezreal, because that guy runs and deals damage at the same time.
^Ezreals..... I hate those guys...
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I can't see what you guys are arguing about. I can see both sides of the argument and am just going to ask why don't you just adapt based on the game? You all talk like once you decide at the start of the game your going IE PD PD GA or something you can't switch. I remember a few days ago that someone said that some pro player said on stream "I bought the exact amount of HP i needed that fight" while surviving with 200 hp or something. If you see that the enemy talon is getting strong and can do a large amount of damage quickly to you, you have to be able to survive the initial burst or your team has to fight without a ADC after the first few seconds (assuming you have good positioning and don't get picked off before the fight) and we all know that tanky ADC > dead ADC. This is an situation where warmogs would be an effective choice. If the enemy team has lots of magic damage and CC or has extremely strong follow up CC (blitz pull for example) then sure, why not get an QSS? I think that both are strong choices depending on how the game has played out thus far and both have advantages and disadvantages.
A side note for GA: the passive takes some time to actually revive you if you get sniped down. This is an advantage in certain situations and an disadvantage in others. If you get blitz pulled with warmogs and die, your dead. If you get blitz pulled with a GA, your team can come and try to save you. It's also an disadvantage that in if you die in the middle of a fight, your team is now without an ADC for a bit. I'm not sure on the exact math but assuming both ADCs stay alive, if one stops attacking for even a few seconds then i'm pretty sure the other carry starts out-dpsing him even with an 1 item disadvantage and this is where the bonus EHP from warmogs comes in.
On trying new things. A while ago on the TL dota forums when I asked why a certain hero wasn't played in competitive play (he seemed strong in an area) someone told me that I shouldn't close my mind and look at what a single hero can do for me and instead, look at what I need at the time and what hero suits that the best. I think this kind of thinking can be applied to builds and team compositions too. I think that instead of looking at things that seem weak and discarding them as trash ideas, they can be tried and tested in different situations to result in expanded game knowledge and can even serve as a counter to a specific situation that you are forced to respond to. Just a few days ago I asked what people thought of renekton + kill support (nami in particular). Now this seemed really strong in my head but wouldn't work unless the opponent was out of position. Now this wasn't a total failure as it showed me the idea of picking an kill support + strong early pick to crush any weak early supports. I'm still theory crafting ways to punish early ADC picks (since people like to pick ADC now since the other lanes are so prone to being counterpicked). Although renekton + nami may not be an strong lane, the concept of picking a kill support + strong early champ bot lane and just crushing people who pick weak early picks like vayne/ashe to maybe make them pick their top lane or something earlier, where they risk getting counterpicked, is still maybe a viable idea.
Sorry for my bad writing, I'm not very good at getting my point across.
Congrats if you got through my horrible english!
Edit: At the start LoL had kills lanes instead of ADC/support? Why did people stop using them?
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On January 09 2013 15:22 Live2Win wrote:
There's a very interesting article on inven.kr about the state of AD Carries in S3. I don't want to translate the whole thing, but the gist of it is
- In S2, bruisers had a hard timing finding a good balance between defense and offense. If you put a lot into def, you wouldn't deal enough dmg. If you got dmg items, you wouldn't survive for long. But in S3, both are easily available.
Care to detail a bit this point? Since resistances have been heavily nerfed in s3, or are they refering to "defensive items" as the HP items?
On January 09 2013 15:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:
all of this applied in season 2, AD casters are more annoying in laning but they are not necessarily better at killing ADs than APs can.
From experience I know that the armor from GA + HP gained between levels ~13 and 18 were enough for an AD carry to survive my full burst (from BT+bruta when I can 100-0 to the same with LW added) as Pantheon or Talon. In s3 you perform better for the levels of armor impled by level ~18 AD carry + armor yellows + GA with ArPen marks+quints and a LW (not necessarily by much, I've just checked that at 100 armor the setup is already better in s3, and this situation has more than 100).
Add stuff like BC, bruta more popular, and your combo will be able to 100-0 through a GA. And not having to wait for another cooldown (even when you're Kha'Zix and his ridiculously short Q) changes a whole world with regard to peels.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I mean the more defensive items AD carry thing that Yango is talking about we can already see with the Iceborn Gauntles Ezreal. And it definitely is a real thing, I mean Miss Fortune with Warmogs is certainly not a good idea, but when your team is unable and/or unwilling to protect the AD carry well enough, you have to adapt your build. The problem is, what kind of a defensive items do you get on stuff like MF, Ashe, Twitch, even Corki? There just don't seem to be any good options apart from QSS+GA.
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United States47024 Posts
I don't see how plain HP is inappropriate for anyone.
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Why is there a consensus amongst some posters about a second survivability item not being worth it, but near universal acceptance of Lifesteal being a core stat for an ADC? Lifesteal is essentially nothing but regen during general play and some EHP during a teamfight which scales with your offensive stats and is reduced by enemy defensive stats. If we accept that adcs should build purely glass cannon shouldn't we be considering Lifesteal very much a secondary stat?
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EPT
