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On January 09 2013 14:17 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 13:55 Shikyo wrote:On January 09 2013 13:51 TheYango wrote:We saw a massive resurgence in AD casters from release Black Cleaver--and we saw that they actually do *enough* damage even with mixed offensive/defensive itemization. The instrument of them being "OP" (Cleaver) was nerfed, but the underlying principle that allowed them to produce acceptable damage without needing 100% offensive itemization (the change to the penetration stats) is still in place, and there's no reason it could not also be applied to how AD carries are played. On January 09 2013 13:48 Shikyo wrote:
Doesn't the penetration change mean that even more damage = more amplification? I don't understand how you can think that it's okay to only deal 300 dmg per hit when you could deal 500.
Just play bruiser bot if you'll build tanky. Because there's actually such a thing as *enough* damage. Shikyo, you play DotA, you should know this is a thing. Things like Manta and Heart find their way onto ranged carries even though glass cannon damage from MKB/Crit is still mathematically more than those items. Manta is the best DPS item for agi carries even if it didn't have survivability(the active would break LoL and would instantly get nerfed to shit). Never seen a ranged carry build heart. Even so it's a completely different game. Do you know who wins when enemy AD is 1 item up on you? They generally ace the teamfight. You're effectively causing that exact thing. There's no such thing as enough damage for AD carries. If enemy AD kills 4 targets while you kill 3 you're in 1v2. You always need to get past the threshold of killing fast enough. It becomes harder and harder as the enemy gets more items and levels. You need to always improve your damage as well. Even if you have enough damage at some point of the game it soon becomes insufficient. Right, in theory you might be correct, but what often happens is that the all important AD carry gets dived on by an assassin. Now that single defensive item (usually GA) comes into play, sometimes it means he gets back up and can fight again, quite often it just means he dies twice. A single mistake in peeling/positioning in such a case instantly ends your teams chances. On the other hand, if you build 2 defensive items you might survive the burst from whoever is diving you long enough that you can actually stay alive for the entire fight. Frankly I'm not good enough at positioning myself to be able to play without any defense. Some pros maybe are, but even Weixao is caught out of position sometimes. I agree that dealing more damage is important the longer a game goes on, but on the other hand you also need to stay consistently above the burst the enemy assassin can put on you in one combo. There simply isn't a lot you can do to prevent a Kha'zix e.g. from jumping on the AD, he covers too much ground. Unless you have a taric/leona/alistar standing right next to you to instantly peel within the ~1.5s he needs to spam his combo on you, you need to have the stats to survive said combo. Obviously not every team composition has such a strong dive champion, but when they do (as is often the case nowadays) I find it idiotic to simply build standard glass cannon and pray to god they won't manage to dive me perfectly. During the S3 qualifiers, I watched at least 3 games where the ADs played full out Glass cannon with GA against either Kha'zix or Zed. All 3 games ended with the respective AD getting nuked down at the start of a teamfight lategame without killing a single target. That somewhat implies to me that they should think about their gameplan. On the other hand Voyboy played a Katarina with Warmogs, Rylais and Zhonyas, he not only survived almost every teamfight, but coupled with his resets and his Ult he still got a triple kill and basically won a teamfight by himself. Note, if your team is running 4 protect the Kog or something similar, obviously you should have all the damage you can buy, but quite a few teams are experimenting with other plans, and so far I'm fairly impressed by quite a few of them. We'll see what the "true" pros are doing soonish I guess, but there is quite a bit of unexplored potential in the S3 itemization. Ps: If the enemy carry is a full item ahead of you (2.1k gold for LW as the cheapest slot) you have quite a few other problems as well. So yes in that situation they will ace the fight. We are arguing that in some situations it might be more effective to spend some of that money (which should be roughly equal between the teams) on HP or another defensive stat to make sure you can actually deal the damage your other 5 (or 4 or 3) items provide.
I think if the ADC is up a damage item on you, using LW as an example, getting a warmogs isnt going to help your team in the slightest in all honesty.
They'll still be doing more damage than you are, and as such will kill your team faster than you can kill theirs
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United States47024 Posts
On January 09 2013 14:15 Zooper31 wrote:
I can presume because none of the ADC items were massively changed and no one has even remotely shown signs of doing anything you are proposing on ADC. As of now it is the best way to play an ADC and you're trying to refute that for some reason.
I am merely trying to be open-minded rather than simply falling into old ways of thinking purely out of laziness.
I could be totally off-base, but at least I bothered to consider it rather than waiting for someone else to change how people think.
And I think it's faulty to look at one role's itemization in a vacuum. How other roles interact with you affects how you play, and as is S3 has shown much greater damage threat from enemy champs that would dive an AD carry, which is what I would consider the prime motivating factor in greater defensive itemization on carries.
Also, I don't know how you don't consider removing the MS improvement from Zeal to PD not a massive change to the item.
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On January 09 2013 14:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:15 Zooper31 wrote:
I can presume because none of the ADC items were massively changed and no one has even remotely shown signs of doing anything you are proposing on ADC. As of now it is the best way to play an ADC and you're trying to refute that for some reason. I am merely trying to be open-minded rather than simply falling into old ways of thinking purely out of laziness. I could be totally off-base, but at least I bothered to consider it rather than waiting for someone else to change how people think. And I think it's faulty to look at one role's itemization in a vacuum. How other roles interact with you affects how you play, and as is S3 has shown much greater damage threat from enemy champs that would dive an AD carry.
I'm not doing it out of laziness I'm doing it because it seems reasonable clear to be the best choice, and I only put "seems" so you wouldn't argue with me on that too lol.
I suppose you could call it that but I don't, it's still the best AS item on carries other than Ez/Corki at 6items but it's not good enough to get before then so it's role remains unchanged.
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Well at least I've played hundreds of games as an AD carry even if it's not at the highest level, and I know the difference it makes to have enemy AD(or you) be a single big item ahead. It doesn't matter at all if you're at full hp, be the full hp 1800 or 4000, if the whole enemy team is alive after your team dies(Which will happen in a situation where one AD has 1 more dmg item assuming no hugely favorable engagements).
On January 09 2013 14:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:15 Zooper31 wrote:
I can presume because none of the ADC items were massively changed and no one has even remotely shown signs of doing anything you are proposing on ADC. As of now it is the best way to play an ADC and you're trying to refute that for some reason. I am merely trying to be open-minded rather than simply falling into old ways of thinking purely out of laziness. I could be totally off-base, but at least I bothered to consider it rather than waiting for someone else to change how people think. And I think it's faulty to look at one role's itemization in a vacuum. How other roles interact with you affects how you play, and as is S3 has shown much greater damage threat from enemy champs that would dive an AD carry, which is what I would consider the prime motivating factor in greater defensive itemization on carries. Also, I don't know how you don't consider removing the MS improvement from Zeal to PD not a massive change to the item.
Laziness? I'm the one everyone laughs at in DotA2 forums because I'm like the most openminded person who tries to find new ways to play the game, building survivability on AD just makes no sense( no I don't mean GA I mean heavy survivability, especially Warmogs is ridiculously stupid).
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United States47024 Posts
How does it make no sense? There have been enough practical examples in recent games to suggest that a single defensive item is simply not good enough against the damage-dealing ability of lategame anti-carries anymore.
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AD Carries buying chainvest because they don't have enough to transform that pickaxe into LW right now isn't only an opportunity cost: it's also that they value that survivability.
Buying enough to survive divers (combined with the peeling you'll receive) makes sense. It's just that ideally the peelers will make it so you can survive even without buying anything.
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On January 09 2013 14:26 TheYango wrote:
How does it make no sense? There have been enough practical examples in recent games to suggest that a single defensive item is simply not good enough against the damage-dealing ability of lategame anti-carries anymore.
Then go 2, QSS & GA, not mogs ever. I could definitely see several games where they are both necesary, but never ever a mogs. Thats 2 seperate arguements, also depends on the ADC whether you need both items and what you are fighting against, but then you need to also counterpick and not force yourself into a defensive posture from the get go.
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On January 09 2013 14:26 TheYango wrote:
How does it make no sense? There have been enough practical examples in recent games to suggest that a single defensive item is simply not good enough against the damage-dealing ability of lategame anti-carries anymore.
Then you don't get an AD carry you get something else. If you need to build 2 survivability items it's not worth the pick.
Back when Last Whisper gave 40% ASPD this would have been possible, now the 4 core are too important.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 09 2013 14:27 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:26 TheYango wrote:
How does it make no sense? There have been enough practical examples in recent games to suggest that a single defensive item is simply not good enough against the damage-dealing ability of lategame anti-carries anymore. Then go 2, QSS & GA, not mogs ever. I could definitely see several games where they are both necesary, but never ever a mogs.
Why not Warmog's, when not only was the cost-effectiveness of resists reduced, but the change in penetration rules makes lategame resists weaker, particularly in the hands of many of these diving champs?
Why not choose the survivability item that's clearly shown itself to have potentially the highest overall effectiveness of this version over one that was nerfed?
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On January 09 2013 14:29 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:27 Zooper31 wrote:On January 09 2013 14:26 TheYango wrote:
How does it make no sense? There have been enough practical examples in recent games to suggest that a single defensive item is simply not good enough against the damage-dealing ability of lategame anti-carries anymore. Then go 2, QSS & GA, not mogs ever. I could definitely see several games where they are both necesary, but never ever a mogs. Why not Warmog's, when not only was the cost-effectiveness of resists reduced, but the change in penetration rules makes lategame resists weaker, particularly in the hands of many of these diving champs?
I'm not buying GA for the defensive stats bro lol. If they made GA give no resists at all and reduced the price I would still buy it.
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On January 09 2013 14:29 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:27 Zooper31 wrote:On January 09 2013 14:26 TheYango wrote:
How does it make no sense? There have been enough practical examples in recent games to suggest that a single defensive item is simply not good enough against the damage-dealing ability of lategame anti-carries anymore. Then go 2, QSS & GA, not mogs ever. I could definitely see several games where they are both necesary, but never ever a mogs. Why not Warmog's, when not only was the cost-effectiveness of resists reduced, but the change in penetration rules makes lategame resists weaker, particularly in the hands of many of these diving champs?
Because resists and hp actually don't mean shit for ranged AD, you buy the items for the actives or passives.
Did someone steal TheYangos account or something?
well, sleep time
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On January 09 2013 14:29 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:29 TheYango wrote:On January 09 2013 14:27 Zooper31 wrote:On January 09 2013 14:26 TheYango wrote:
How does it make no sense? There have been enough practical examples in recent games to suggest that a single defensive item is simply not good enough against the damage-dealing ability of lategame anti-carries anymore. Then go 2, QSS & GA, not mogs ever. I could definitely see several games where they are both necesary, but never ever a mogs. Why not Warmog's, when not only was the cost-effectiveness of resists reduced, but the change in penetration rules makes lategame resists weaker, particularly in the hands of many of these diving champs? Because resists and hp actually don't mean shit for ranged AD, you buy the items for the actives or passives. Did someone steal TheYangos account or something?
maybe this is an epic troll
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United States47024 Posts
Now I'm just offended that you think I'm trolling.
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On January 09 2013 14:29 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:29 TheYango wrote:On January 09 2013 14:27 Zooper31 wrote:On January 09 2013 14:26 TheYango wrote:
How does it make no sense? There have been enough practical examples in recent games to suggest that a single defensive item is simply not good enough against the damage-dealing ability of lategame anti-carries anymore. Then go 2, QSS & GA, not mogs ever. I could definitely see several games where they are both necesary, but never ever a mogs. Why not Warmog's, when not only was the cost-effectiveness of resists reduced, but the change in penetration rules makes lategame resists weaker, particularly in the hands of many of these diving champs? Because resists and hp actually don't mean shit for ranged AD, you buy the items for the actives or passives. Did someone steal TheYangos account or something?
Yup, in s2 if there was a rampaging assassin in the enemy team with a bruta-BT build, or a fed Akali running around, buying that crit cloak for finishing your PD faster would save your life with more consistency than a spare chainvest or negatron cloak that would sit there in your inventory waiting to be finished.
Sure now this one case doesn't work as well because of penetration rules, but making your statements boldly won't make them truer. Unless everyone who ever did what I just talked about was dumb.
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Whether or not Yango is correct, trying to insult him for thinking of and posting ways to improve with innovation is laughable. Even if it turns out that 5 offensive 1 defensive item is superior, or that it's better to have GA and a QSS over a Warmog, I don't see how that makes him a worse poster. If somebody wants to innovate and theorycraft, he will be wrong sometimes. But all I see you guys doing is refuting his claim with your own experiences (without trying it out) as hard as you can. Why?
And this is assuming that he's wrong. In a situation where an AD assassin with LW and BC is gunning for your dick every single teamfight and you can autoattack 3 times before you have to run without kiting, wouldn't warmog be a good choice?
edit: I would think this holds especially true when we might not be looking at somebody who has liftlift's mechanics and the pro's teamfighting ability.
I disagree with this. We should be building ''correctly'', which means for the highest level of play, because that's where we want to be. It's like saying that a starcraft build is viable for gold. If it's not viable for master/GM then I think we shouldn't use/discuss it. A misconception many people have is that if you have perfect positioning and mechanics, you will take 0 damage in a teamfight. This is wrong, as anyone who has actually played the game without being close-minded as balls knows. If an AD assassin can jump you and 100 to 0 you (and if he's good, he will), mechanics don't really matter. Well the difference here is that there are many important variables that you can't do much about such as the peeling of your team, so playing/building for some margin of error isn't as bad.
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I don't get why everyone is acting like a dick today. lol.
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I think given the high damage output of the bursty champs that are getting ran a lot, another defensive item on AD carries isn't a terrible idea. Obviously, and I think this is the single most important factor, it's incredibly team comp dependent. If you're building those defense items it had better be because you know their team can get to you because you lack great peals or they have unavoidable diving power. Doing less damage to assure your own survivability can hardly seem like a bad idea on AD carries whose damage is entirely based over sustainability and not front-load burst.
edit: I would think this holds especially true when we might not be looking at somebody who has liftlift's mechanics and the pro's teamfighting ability.
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I've played games on ADs against teams with panth/Zed or whatever assassin/AD caster hero that's popular these days. Having just GA doesn't cut it anymore. The fact that GA's active CD is so long makes it undesirable after one use. I can see why Warmogs would be the better choice because having an extra 1000 hp is better than a bit of armor that they're just gonna shred though anyway with BC + LW.
Also fuck lategame Zed what the fuck is with the damage output on his ultimate. You can't even peel the guy cause you can't target him when you ults. Makes me real sad when he just flash ults me every lategame fight and there's little to nothing anyone can do about it.
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On January 09 2013 14:55 Nos- wrote:
I've played games on ADs against teams with panth/Zed or whatever assassin/AD caster hero that's popular these days. Having just GA doesn't cut it anymore. The fact that GA's active CD is so long makes it undesirable after one use. I can see why Warmogs would be the better choice because having an extra 1000 hp is better than a bit of armor that they're just gonna shred though anyway with BC + LW.
Also fuck lategame Zed what the fuck is with the damage output on his ultimate. You can't even peel the guy cause you can't target him when you ults. Makes me real sad when he just flash ults me every lategame fight and there's little to nothing anyone can do about it.
Agreed, it was such a weird feeling when I was learning to play him in the jungle, level 6 ulti you use it and it does a little around what you feel an ulti should be doing, then you hit 11 with an item or two more and use it and it just cleaves out half of someones life bar.
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On January 09 2013 14:55 Nos- wrote:
I've played games on ADs against teams with panth/Zed or whatever assassin/AD caster hero that's popular these days. Having just GA doesn't cut it anymore. The fact that GA's active CD is so long makes it undesirable after one use. I can see why Warmogs would be the better choice because having an extra 1000 hp is better than a bit of armor that they're just gonna shred though anyway with BC + LW.
Also fuck lategame Zed what the fuck is with the damage output on his ultimate. You can't even peel the guy cause you can't target him when you ults. Makes me real sad when he just flash ults me every lategame fight and there's little to nothing anyone can do about it.
^^This. I've been getting Warmog's over GA a lot in S3 on AD's and it feels really strong. 1000 hp is quite a bit, and the armor component from GA just doesn't cut it with the prevalence of cleavers and the changes to armor pen.
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EPT
