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We saw a massive resurgence in AD casters from release Black Cleaver--and we saw that they actually do *enough* damage even with mixed offensive/defensive itemization. The instrument of them being "OP" (Cleaver) was nerfed, but the underlying principle that allowed them to produce acceptable damage without needing 100% offensive itemization (the change to the penetration stats) is still in place, and there's no reason it could not also be applied to how AD carries are played.
On January 09 2013 13:48 Shikyo wrote:
Doesn't the penetration change mean that even more damage = more amplification? I don't understand how you can think that it's okay to only deal 300 dmg per hit when you could deal 500.
Just play bruiser bot if you'll build tanky.
Because there's actually such a thing as *enough* damage.
Shikyo, you play DotA, you should know this is a thing. Things like Manta and Heart find their way onto ranged carries even though glass cannon damage from MKB/Crit is still mathematically more than those items.
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On January 09 2013 13:51 TheYango wrote:We saw a massive resurgence in AD casters from release Black Cleaver--and we saw that they actually do *enough* damage even with mixed offensive/defensive itemization. The instrument of them being "OP" (Cleaver) was nerfed, but the underlying principle that allowed them to produce acceptable damage without needing 100% offensive itemization (the change to the penetration stats) is still in place, and there's no reason it could not also be applied to how AD carries are played. Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 13:48 Shikyo wrote:
Doesn't the penetration change mean that even more damage = more amplification? I don't understand how you can think that it's okay to only deal 300 dmg per hit when you could deal 500.
Just play bruiser bot if you'll build tanky. Because there's actually such a thing as *enough* damage. Shikyo, you play DotA, you should know this is a thing. Things like Manta and Heart find their way onto ranged carries even though glass cannon damage from MKB/Crit is still mathematically more than those items.
Manta is the best DPS item for agi carries even if it didn't have survivability(the active would break LoL and would instantly get nerfed to shit). Never seen a ranged carry build heart. Even so it's a completely different game.
Do you know who wins when enemy AD is 1 item up on you? They generally ace the teamfight.
You're effectively causing that exact thing. There's no such thing as enough damage for AD carries. If enemy AD kills 4 targets while you kill 3 you're in 1v2.
You always need to get past the threshold of killing fast enough. It becomes harder and harder as the enemy gets more items and levels. You need to always improve your damage as well. Even if you have enough damage at some point of the game it soon becomes insufficient.
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That's a totally different scenario because you're assuming that having more survivability does nothing. In actuality having more survivability reduces the amount of time you have to kite and increase the time you can be doing closer to your theoretical maximum DPS.
No AD ever spends the entire fight standing in one place autoattacking. Having more survivability puts you CLOSER to that (if you had 5 defensive items you could stand in one place and autoattack the whole time but obviously you'd do no damage) and actually does increase your damage dealing ability--so there actually is a balance between offensive/defensive stats to optimize this. In S1/S2 this was 4 offensive+1 defensive because you actually needed 4 offensive items to do appropriate damage to lategame armor/HP values, but the change to the value of lategame armor makes this much less the case.
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On January 09 2013 13:55 Shikyo wrote:
There's no such thing as enough damage for AD carries. If enemy AD kills 4 targets while you kill 3 you're in 1v2.
You always need to get past the threshold of killing fast enough. It becomes harder and harder as the enemy gets more items and levels. You need to always improve your damage as well. Even if you have enough damage at some point of the game it soon becomes insufficient.
This is only true if the ADC is guaranteed to survive long enough to do DPS. If instead the enemy team is guaranteed to do X damage to your ADC, your ADC has to build enough defense to absorb X damage before any of his damage matters a dingy-bird. X obviously varies a ton but if for whatever reason X increases a bunch in the LoL meta you will see ADCs build defense or face the reality of contributing nothing whatsoever.
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on the other hand if the enemy AD gets dived and dies and you get dived and live, then you win
warmog's helps against burst damage, for sure, but I'm not convinced that it would help you get more dps by reducing the amount you have to kite. BT has a defensive stat as well: lifesteal. With an AD's high multiplicative damage, the health from lifesteal is going to rival the flat health granted by warmog's. If warmogs lets you kite less then BT should also have the same effect.
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Coincidentally "X" has gone up based on the increase in up-front burst threat from bruisers through new itemization like Cleaver.
On January 09 2013 14:05 thenexusp wrote:
on the other hand if the enemy AD gets dived and dies and you get dived and live, then you win
warmog's helps against burst damage, for sure, but I'm not convinced that it would help you get more dps by reducing the amount you have to kite. BT has a defensive stat as well: lifesteal. With an AD's high multiplicative damage, the health from lifesteal is going to rival the flat health granted by warmog's. If warmogs lets you kite less then BT should also have the same effect.
You have to do 5000+ damage for BT lifesteal to match Warmog's HP. That's like 2 Champions' worth of HP. By the time you've stolen that much life, the fight's long since been won or lost.
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On January 09 2013 14:00 TheYango wrote:
That's a totally different scenario because you're assuming that having more survivability does nothing. In actuality having more survivability reduces the amount of time you have to kite and increase the time you can be doing closer to your theoretical maximum DPS.
No AD ever spends the entire fight standing in one place autoattacking. Having more survivability puts you CLOSER to that (if you had 5 defensive items you could stand in one place and autoattack the whole time but obviously you'd do no damage) and actually does increase your damage dealing ability--so there actually is a balance between offensive/defensive stats to optimize this. In S1/S2 this was 4 offensive+1 defensive because you actually needed 4 offensive items to do appropriate damage to lategame armor/HP values, but the change to the value of lategame armor makes this much less the case.
If you get to a point where you can 1hit enemies, then going more dmg is un-logical. You are never at that point and should always strive for more dmg (thats the only purpose of an adc). You want to treat adc like bruisers who's purpose is to dive and cause disruption. They are 2 vastly different roles and require different playstyles, items, and goals. Adc only get a defensive item because it's good to have a backup against someone who can CC you (QSS) or dive you in a teamfight (GA).
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No, you still can't fight anyone head-on. If the enemy team suicide bombs you you'll die just like you would have otherwise. The suicide bombing is the main reason ADs go for GAs. You can't reasonably defend against it with anything but GA or Zhonya Hourglass unless you go like full tank.
You're going to want to stay far enough from anyone regardless of if you have a Warmog or not. You won't live if you let that Darius pull you in. You avoid the situation altogether, shooting him when he's busy, always staying at max range. Your gameplay isn't going to change at all with a little survivability. Even with GA and AD dies incredibly quickly if they try to play more bravely.
Problem is most AD items won't only be giving you damage. IE, PD, LW and BT all are essential. IE is the only pure damage item(and the damage it gives is so good it's essential), others are required as well(the only ASPD item, the only lifesteal item + a lot of damage, the only apen item). You only have a single slot available. If you skip even one of those items you will be incomplete.
If you really wanted to have some useful survivability in teamfights, you'd get the Mercurial Scimitar. It boosts your survivability by many times more than something like Warmogs would. It also gives damage, and the active would be more valuable in this case than an entire Warmogs even if it gave no other stats.
On January 09 2013 14:04 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 13:55 Shikyo wrote:
There's no such thing as enough damage for AD carries. If enemy AD kills 4 targets while you kill 3 you're in 1v2.
You always need to get past the threshold of killing fast enough. It becomes harder and harder as the enemy gets more items and levels. You need to always improve your damage as well. Even if you have enough damage at some point of the game it soon becomes insufficient. This is only true if the ADC is guaranteed to survive long enough to do DPS. If instead the enemy team is guaranteed to do X damage to your ADC, your ADC has to build enough defense to absorb X damage before any of his damage matters a dingy-bird. X obviously varies a ton but if for whatever reason X increases a bunch in the LoL meta you will see ADCs build defense or face the reality of contributing nothing whatsoever.
You can't build enough survivability. The only items that do anything here are Mercurial Scimitar, Zhonya's Hourglass, and Guardian Angel. If you build tanky they just don't give a shit and kill everyone. You're the main damage dealer.
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On January 09 2013 14:07 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:00 TheYango wrote:
That's a totally different scenario because you're assuming that having more survivability does nothing. In actuality having more survivability reduces the amount of time you have to kite and increase the time you can be doing closer to your theoretical maximum DPS.
No AD ever spends the entire fight standing in one place autoattacking. Having more survivability puts you CLOSER to that (if you had 5 defensive items you could stand in one place and autoattack the whole time but obviously you'd do no damage) and actually does increase your damage dealing ability--so there actually is a balance between offensive/defensive stats to optimize this. In S1/S2 this was 4 offensive+1 defensive because you actually needed 4 offensive items to do appropriate damage to lategame armor/HP values, but the change to the value of lategame armor makes this much less the case. If you get to a point where you can 1hit enemies, then going more dmg is un-logical. You are never at that point and should always strive for more dmg (thats the only purpose of an adc). You want to treat adc like bruisers who's purpose is to dive and cause disruption. They are 2 vastly different roles and require different playstyles, items, and goals. Adc only get a defensive item because it's good to have a backup against someone who can CC you (QSS) or dive you in a teamfight (GA).
Again, you're basing this on an S1/S2-centric view of LoL team composition assuming that a glass-cannon damage dealer is actually even a necessity.
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On January 09 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote:
Again, you're basing this on an S1/S2-centric view of LoL team composition assuming that a glass-cannon damage dealer is actually even a necessity.
I said "if you're going to build tanky play bruiser bot"
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On January 09 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote:
Again, you're basing this on an S1/S2-centric view of LoL team composition assuming that a glass-cannon damage dealer is actually even a necessity.
when a team pulls off consistent win rates with no adc, while stacking defensive items i'll believe its no longer needed
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On January 09 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:07 Zooper31 wrote:On January 09 2013 14:00 TheYango wrote:
That's a totally different scenario because you're assuming that having more survivability does nothing. In actuality having more survivability reduces the amount of time you have to kite and increase the time you can be doing closer to your theoretical maximum DPS.
No AD ever spends the entire fight standing in one place autoattacking. Having more survivability puts you CLOSER to that (if you had 5 defensive items you could stand in one place and autoattack the whole time but obviously you'd do no damage) and actually does increase your damage dealing ability--so there actually is a balance between offensive/defensive stats to optimize this. In S1/S2 this was 4 offensive+1 defensive because you actually needed 4 offensive items to do appropriate damage to lategame armor/HP values, but the change to the value of lategame armor makes this much less the case. If you get to a point where you can 1hit enemies, then going more dmg is un-logical. You are never at that point and should always strive for more dmg (thats the only purpose of an adc). You want to treat adc like bruisers who's purpose is to dive and cause disruption. They are 2 vastly different roles and require different playstyles, items, and goals. Adc only get a defensive item because it's good to have a backup against someone who can CC you (QSS) or dive you in a teamfight (GA). Again, you're basing this on an S1/S2-centric view of LoL team composition assuming that a glass-cannon damage dealer is actually even a necessity.
Because it is still. If and when things change, and items are still the same and there isn't some massive re-work, I will eat my words.
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On January 09 2013 14:10 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote:
Again, you're basing this on an S1/S2-centric view of LoL team composition assuming that a glass-cannon damage dealer is actually even a necessity. I said "if you're going to build tanky play bruiser bot"
What exactly inherently about ranged/melee champions makes it such that it's not acceptable to do so on a ranged champion?
If you have a ranged carry, you still maintain the sieging ability of having a ranged carry.
On January 09 2013 14:12 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote:On January 09 2013 14:07 Zooper31 wrote:On January 09 2013 14:00 TheYango wrote:
That's a totally different scenario because you're assuming that having more survivability does nothing. In actuality having more survivability reduces the amount of time you have to kite and increase the time you can be doing closer to your theoretical maximum DPS.
No AD ever spends the entire fight standing in one place autoattacking. Having more survivability puts you CLOSER to that (if you had 5 defensive items you could stand in one place and autoattack the whole time but obviously you'd do no damage) and actually does increase your damage dealing ability--so there actually is a balance between offensive/defensive stats to optimize this. In S1/S2 this was 4 offensive+1 defensive because you actually needed 4 offensive items to do appropriate damage to lategame armor/HP values, but the change to the value of lategame armor makes this much less the case. If you get to a point where you can 1hit enemies, then going more dmg is un-logical. You are never at that point and should always strive for more dmg (thats the only purpose of an adc). You want to treat adc like bruisers who's purpose is to dive and cause disruption. They are 2 vastly different roles and require different playstyles, items, and goals. Adc only get a defensive item because it's good to have a backup against someone who can CC you (QSS) or dive you in a teamfight (GA). Again, you're basing this on an S1/S2-centric view of LoL team composition assuming that a glass-cannon damage dealer is actually even a necessity. Because it is still.
You can presume to know this a month into S3? Ok.
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On January 09 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:07 Zooper31 wrote:On January 09 2013 14:00 TheYango wrote:
That's a totally different scenario because you're assuming that having more survivability does nothing. In actuality having more survivability reduces the amount of time you have to kite and increase the time you can be doing closer to your theoretical maximum DPS.
No AD ever spends the entire fight standing in one place autoattacking. Having more survivability puts you CLOSER to that (if you had 5 defensive items you could stand in one place and autoattack the whole time but obviously you'd do no damage) and actually does increase your damage dealing ability--so there actually is a balance between offensive/defensive stats to optimize this. In S1/S2 this was 4 offensive+1 defensive because you actually needed 4 offensive items to do appropriate damage to lategame armor/HP values, but the change to the value of lategame armor makes this much less the case. If you get to a point where you can 1hit enemies, then going more dmg is un-logical. You are never at that point and should always strive for more dmg (thats the only purpose of an adc). You want to treat adc like bruisers who's purpose is to dive and cause disruption. They are 2 vastly different roles and require different playstyles, items, and goals. Adc only get a defensive item because it's good to have a backup against someone who can CC you (QSS) or dive you in a teamfight (GA). Again, you're basing this on an S1/S2-centric view of LoL team composition assuming that a glass-cannon damage dealer is actually even a necessity.
It becomes fun when we remember yesterday where you argued that Ezreal going Gauntlet for poke+defenses wasn't as good as a more glass-cannony build (TF or straight-up multiplicative scaling). 
Partly because it's not as cost-effective, I'll give you that, but you criticized the "less straight-up damage" too (when it was about "how do you value being so much harder to catch").
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On January 09 2013 14:12 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:10 Shikyo wrote:On January 09 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote:
Again, you're basing this on an S1/S2-centric view of LoL team composition assuming that a glass-cannon damage dealer is actually even a necessity. I said "if you're going to build tanky play bruiser bot" What exactly inherently about ranged/melee champions makes it such that it's not acceptable to do so on a ranged champion? If you have a ranged carry, you still maintain the sieging ability of having a ranged carry.
Ranged champions have worse stats and much worse skillsets because they're ranged, the fact that they're ranged lets them avoid damage, if you avoid damage you don't need survivability, if you can't avoid damage you shouldn't play ranged AD.
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On January 09 2013 13:51 TheYango wrote:We saw a massive resurgence in AD casters from release Black Cleaver--and we saw that they actually do *enough* damage even with mixed offensive/defensive itemization. The instrument of them being "OP" (Cleaver) was nerfed, but the underlying principle that allowed them to produce acceptable damage without needing 100% offensive itemization (the change to the penetration stats) is still in place, and there's no reason it could not also be applied to how AD carries are played. Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 13:48 Shikyo wrote:
Doesn't the penetration change mean that even more damage = more amplification? I don't understand how you can think that it's okay to only deal 300 dmg per hit when you could deal 500.
Just play bruiser bot if you'll build tanky. Because there's actually such a thing as *enough* damage. Shikyo, you play DotA, you should know this is a thing. Things like Manta and Heart find their way onto ranged carries even though glass cannon damage from MKB/Crit is still mathematically more than those items.
The problem I have with your argument is that, based on the math I did when I asked why Flat Armor Penetration runes were worse than AD, the penetration changes are actually very much overstated unless you're stacking multiple %-based sources. If the bruiser on your team is stacking BC on your AD's target that's all well and good, but otherwise your AD carry is only slightly better off than before because Armor is harder to stack.
It's also not really feasible for AD carries to stack BC + LW themselves in most cases, as they lack the innate tankiness and high AD ratios that allowed those AD casters and bruisers to function with BC stacking. That build might work on Jayce, Graves, and possibly Caitlyn, but it's very iffy for the rest of the ADs.
Basically, if all your arguments hold you're probably better off with another Bruiser than an AD, while using a different strategy for pushing turrets.
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On January 09 2013 14:13 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote:On January 09 2013 14:07 Zooper31 wrote:On January 09 2013 14:00 TheYango wrote:
That's a totally different scenario because you're assuming that having more survivability does nothing. In actuality having more survivability reduces the amount of time you have to kite and increase the time you can be doing closer to your theoretical maximum DPS.
No AD ever spends the entire fight standing in one place autoattacking. Having more survivability puts you CLOSER to that (if you had 5 defensive items you could stand in one place and autoattack the whole time but obviously you'd do no damage) and actually does increase your damage dealing ability--so there actually is a balance between offensive/defensive stats to optimize this. In S1/S2 this was 4 offensive+1 defensive because you actually needed 4 offensive items to do appropriate damage to lategame armor/HP values, but the change to the value of lategame armor makes this much less the case. If you get to a point where you can 1hit enemies, then going more dmg is un-logical. You are never at that point and should always strive for more dmg (thats the only purpose of an adc). You want to treat adc like bruisers who's purpose is to dive and cause disruption. They are 2 vastly different roles and require different playstyles, items, and goals. Adc only get a defensive item because it's good to have a backup against someone who can CC you (QSS) or dive you in a teamfight (GA). Again, you're basing this on an S1/S2-centric view of LoL team composition assuming that a glass-cannon damage dealer is actually even a necessity. It becomes fun when we remember yesterday where you argued that Ezreal going Gauntlet for poke+defenses wasn't as good as a more glass-cannony build (TF or straight-up multiplicative scaling). Partly because it's not as cost-effective, I'll give you that, but you criticized the "less straight-up damage" too (when it was about "how do you value being so much harder to catch").
No, my argument was entirely based on cost-efficiency.
If Iceborn provided what it does at a better price point, then I would like it as an item. My argument had nothing to do with how appropriate the effect was for an AD, but the fact that you're flat out not paying good value for it.
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On January 09 2013 14:12 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:10 Shikyo wrote:On January 09 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote:
Again, you're basing this on an S1/S2-centric view of LoL team composition assuming that a glass-cannon damage dealer is actually even a necessity. I said "if you're going to build tanky play bruiser bot" What exactly inherently about ranged/melee champions makes it such that it's not acceptable to do so on a ranged champion? If you have a ranged carry, you still maintain the sieging ability of having a ranged carry. Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:12 Zooper31 wrote:On January 09 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote:On January 09 2013 14:07 Zooper31 wrote:On January 09 2013 14:00 TheYango wrote:
That's a totally different scenario because you're assuming that having more survivability does nothing. In actuality having more survivability reduces the amount of time you have to kite and increase the time you can be doing closer to your theoretical maximum DPS.
No AD ever spends the entire fight standing in one place autoattacking. Having more survivability puts you CLOSER to that (if you had 5 defensive items you could stand in one place and autoattack the whole time but obviously you'd do no damage) and actually does increase your damage dealing ability--so there actually is a balance between offensive/defensive stats to optimize this. In S1/S2 this was 4 offensive+1 defensive because you actually needed 4 offensive items to do appropriate damage to lategame armor/HP values, but the change to the value of lategame armor makes this much less the case. If you get to a point where you can 1hit enemies, then going more dmg is un-logical. You are never at that point and should always strive for more dmg (thats the only purpose of an adc). You want to treat adc like bruisers who's purpose is to dive and cause disruption. They are 2 vastly different roles and require different playstyles, items, and goals. Adc only get a defensive item because it's good to have a backup against someone who can CC you (QSS) or dive you in a teamfight (GA). Again, you're basing this on an S1/S2-centric view of LoL team composition assuming that a glass-cannon damage dealer is actually even a necessity. Because it is still. You can presume to know this a month into S3? Ok.
I can presume because none of the ADC items were massively changed and no one has even remotely shown signs of doing anything you are proposing on ADC. As of now it is the best way to play an ADC and you're trying to refute that for some reason. This just reminds me of our past arguement on TF vs IBG, everyone argueing against you on something everyone seems to agree 100% on lol.
On January 09 2013 14:14 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:12 TheYango wrote:On January 09 2013 14:10 Shikyo wrote:On January 09 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote:
Again, you're basing this on an S1/S2-centric view of LoL team composition assuming that a glass-cannon damage dealer is actually even a necessity. I said "if you're going to build tanky play bruiser bot" What exactly inherently about ranged/melee champions makes it such that it's not acceptable to do so on a ranged champion? If you have a ranged carry, you still maintain the sieging ability of having a ranged carry. Ranged champions have worse stats and much worse skillsets because they're ranged, the fact that they're ranged lets them avoid damage, if you avoid damage you don't need survivability, if you can't avoid damage you shouldn't play ranged AD.
This this! They are ranged for a reason...
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On January 09 2013 13:55 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 13:51 TheYango wrote:We saw a massive resurgence in AD casters from release Black Cleaver--and we saw that they actually do *enough* damage even with mixed offensive/defensive itemization. The instrument of them being "OP" (Cleaver) was nerfed, but the underlying principle that allowed them to produce acceptable damage without needing 100% offensive itemization (the change to the penetration stats) is still in place, and there's no reason it could not also be applied to how AD carries are played. On January 09 2013 13:48 Shikyo wrote:
Doesn't the penetration change mean that even more damage = more amplification? I don't understand how you can think that it's okay to only deal 300 dmg per hit when you could deal 500.
Just play bruiser bot if you'll build tanky. Because there's actually such a thing as *enough* damage. Shikyo, you play DotA, you should know this is a thing. Things like Manta and Heart find their way onto ranged carries even though glass cannon damage from MKB/Crit is still mathematically more than those items. Manta is the best DPS item for agi carries even if it didn't have survivability(the active would break LoL and would instantly get nerfed to shit). Never seen a ranged carry build heart. Even so it's a completely different game. Do you know who wins when enemy AD is 1 item up on you? They generally ace the teamfight. You're effectively causing that exact thing. There's no such thing as enough damage for AD carries. If enemy AD kills 4 targets while you kill 3 you're in 1v2. You always need to get past the threshold of killing fast enough. It becomes harder and harder as the enemy gets more items and levels. You need to always improve your damage as well. Even if you have enough damage at some point of the game it soon becomes insufficient.
Right, in theory you might be correct, but what often happens is that the all important AD carry gets dived on by an assassin. Now that single defensive item (usually GA) comes into play, sometimes it means he gets back up and can fight again, quite often it just means he dies twice. A single mistake in peeling/positioning in such a case instantly ends your teams chances.
On the other hand, if you build 2 defensive items you might survive the burst from whoever is diving you long enough that you can actually stay alive for the entire fight. Frankly I'm not good enough at positioning myself to be able to play without any defense. Some pros maybe are, but even Weixao is caught out of position sometimes.
I agree that dealing more damage is important the longer a game goes on, but on the other hand you also need to stay consistently above the burst the enemy assassin can put on you in one combo. There simply isn't a lot you can do to prevent a Kha'zix e.g. from jumping on the AD, he covers too much ground. Unless you have a taric/leona/alistar standing right next to you to instantly peel within the ~1.5s he needs to spam his combo on you, you need to have the stats to survive said combo.
Obviously not every team composition has such a strong dive champion, but when they do (as is often the case nowadays) I find it idiotic to simply build standard glass cannon and pray to god they won't manage to dive me perfectly.
During the S3 qualifiers, I watched at least 3 games where the ADs played full out Glass cannon with GA against either Kha'zix or Zed. All 3 games ended with the respective AD getting nuked down at the start of a teamfight lategame without killing a single target. That somewhat implies to me that they should think about their gameplan. On the other hand Voyboy played a Katarina with Warmogs, Rylais and Zhonyas, he not only survived almost every teamfight, but coupled with his resets and his Ult he still got a triple kill and basically won a teamfight by himself.
Note, if your team is running 4 protect the Kog or something similar, obviously you should have all the damage you can buy, but quite a few teams are experimenting with other plans, and so far I'm fairly impressed by quite a few of them.
We'll see what the "true" pros are doing soonish I guess, but there is quite a bit of unexplored potential in the S3 itemization.
Ps: If the enemy carry is a full item ahead of you (2.1k gold for LW as the cheapest slot) you have quite a few other problems as well. So yes in that situation they will ace the fight. We are arguing that in some situations it might be more effective to spend some of that money (which should be roughly equal between the teams) on HP or another defensive stat to make sure you can actually deal the damage your other 5 (or 4 or 3) items provide.
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On January 09 2013 14:15 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 14:12 TheYango wrote:On January 09 2013 14:10 Shikyo wrote:On January 09 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote:
Again, you're basing this on an S1/S2-centric view of LoL team composition assuming that a glass-cannon damage dealer is actually even a necessity. I said "if you're going to build tanky play bruiser bot" What exactly inherently about ranged/melee champions makes it such that it's not acceptable to do so on a ranged champion? If you have a ranged carry, you still maintain the sieging ability of having a ranged carry. On January 09 2013 14:12 Zooper31 wrote:On January 09 2013 14:10 TheYango wrote:On January 09 2013 14:07 Zooper31 wrote:On January 09 2013 14:00 TheYango wrote:
That's a totally different scenario because you're assuming that having more survivability does nothing. In actuality having more survivability reduces the amount of time you have to kite and increase the time you can be doing closer to your theoretical maximum DPS.
No AD ever spends the entire fight standing in one place autoattacking. Having more survivability puts you CLOSER to that (if you had 5 defensive items you could stand in one place and autoattack the whole time but obviously you'd do no damage) and actually does increase your damage dealing ability--so there actually is a balance between offensive/defensive stats to optimize this. In S1/S2 this was 4 offensive+1 defensive because you actually needed 4 offensive items to do appropriate damage to lategame armor/HP values, but the change to the value of lategame armor makes this much less the case. If you get to a point where you can 1hit enemies, then going more dmg is un-logical. You are never at that point and should always strive for more dmg (thats the only purpose of an adc). You want to treat adc like bruisers who's purpose is to dive and cause disruption. They are 2 vastly different roles and require different playstyles, items, and goals. Adc only get a defensive item because it's good to have a backup against someone who can CC you (QSS) or dive you in a teamfight (GA). Again, you're basing this on an S1/S2-centric view of LoL team composition assuming that a glass-cannon damage dealer is actually even a necessity. Because it is still. You can presume to know this a month into S3? Ok. I can presume because none of the ADC items were massively changed and no one has even remotely shown signs of doing anything you are proposing on ADC. As of now it is the best way to play an ADC and you're trying to refute that for some reason.
I'd switch it to "noone has yet". Inertia is huge in LoL and experimentation is the deed of a few, so for new stuff to emerge and actually be adopted you can't tell "well noone visible has done it so it isn't viable".
It's a Devil's proof: when we find better, we know there is. Till then, we can't prove we have the absolute best.
So it is the best known (arguably "widespread") way to play an ADC.
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EPT
