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[Patch 1.0.0.153: Preseason Balance Update 1] GD - Page 351

Forum Index > LoL General
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Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
January 09 2013 04:03 GMT
#7001
The Q change is a revert of a PBE nerf, it's there the same as her current state.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Zooper31
Profile Joined May 2009
United States5711 Posts
January 09 2013 04:03 GMT
#7002
On January 09 2013 12:59 arb wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2013 12:58 Zooper31 wrote:
On January 09 2013 12:54 TheYango wrote:
Food for thought: DBlade healing is worth more than a potion by the 5th creep wave even if you only ever lasthit and never autoattacked at any other time. Counting autoattacks at other times, it'll be worth a potion by the 2nd or 3rd wave more realistically.

On January 09 2013 12:53 VayneAuthority wrote:
anywhere I can see a write up on why and when FXO changed players and who these new players are? haven't heard anything about it

IIRC Choo Choo Lin is a sub. I think she subbed for them before.


Taking into account that that you actually are missing hp to take advtange of the 5hp gain though. They still pretty much suck though imo. Just go longsword and upgrade to sceptor and steal more.

They're better than dblades last season up to a point, 1dblade + vamp is a good core imo.


I suppose very early they are better, give you that. I just really dislike all the dorans items in general on everyone, prefer to use that money to complete items and not waste anything.
Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya, mrtyor mamrtam gamaya
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-09 04:12:59
January 09 2013 04:05 GMT
#7003
On January 09 2013 12:58 Zooper31 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2013 12:54 TheYango wrote:
Food for thought: DBlade healing is worth more than a potion by the 5th creep wave even if you only ever lasthit and never autoattacked at any other time. Counting autoattacks at other times, it'll be worth a potion by the 2nd or 3rd wave more realistically.

On January 09 2013 12:53 VayneAuthority wrote:
anywhere I can see a write up on why and when FXO changed players and who these new players are? haven't heard anything about it

IIRC Choo Choo Lin is a sub. I think she subbed for them before.


Taking into account that that you actually are missing hp to take advtange of the 5hp gain though. They still pretty much suck though imo. Just go longsword and upgrade to sceptor and steal more.

Do you somehow go to lane and then play so pussy that you don't lose any HP for the first 3 waves? Do you back so early that 80 flat HP + the HP gain from Doran's doesn't outperform 2 potions? You basically have to be backing before like 5:30 for that to be the case.

The upgrade to vamp isn't inherently cost-effective or anything. Honestly at the point where you get the vamp upgrade, you're doing like 80-90 damage anyway, so it's not outperforming DBlade per cost. Mathematically DBlade+Flask is actually going to be superior sustain compared to Vamp Scepter in a large percentage of cases early game, for 100 less gold, while also providing the additional 80 HP of a DBlade and the mana restoration of the Flask.
Moderator
Zooper31
Profile Joined May 2009
United States5711 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-09 04:11:52
January 09 2013 04:10 GMT
#7004
On January 09 2013 13:05 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2013 12:58 Zooper31 wrote:
On January 09 2013 12:54 TheYango wrote:
Food for thought: DBlade healing is worth more than a potion by the 5th creep wave even if you only ever lasthit and never autoattacked at any other time. Counting autoattacks at other times, it'll be worth a potion by the 2nd or 3rd wave more realistically.

On January 09 2013 12:53 VayneAuthority wrote:
anywhere I can see a write up on why and when FXO changed players and who these new players are? haven't heard anything about it

IIRC Choo Choo Lin is a sub. I think she subbed for them before.


Taking into account that that you actually are missing hp to take advtange of the 5hp gain though. They still pretty much suck though imo. Just go longsword and upgrade to sceptor and steal more.

Do you somehow go to lane and then play so pussy that you don't lose any HP for the first 3 waves? Do you back so early that 80 flat HP + the HP gain from Doran's doesn't outperform 2 potions? You basically have to be backing before like 5:30 for that to be the case.

The upgrade to vamp isn't inherently cost-effective or anything. Honestly at the point where you get the vamp upgrade, you're doing like 80-90 damage anyway, so it's not outperforming DBlade per cost.

The Vamp only outperforms DBlade at 2 points: you've reached 6 items and need to sell the DBlade, or you're making Bloodthirster.


Ya I'm just biased against doran's items in general like I said. Prefer to use 800g for sceptor and have nothing go to waste and make getting BT easier than spend 475g on a Dblade which I'm going to sell for only 190g and not be any closer to completing future items.

Comes down to whether you want to be better in lane for 285g or do you want to complete your BT faster and not waste any time.

On the flask matter, I'd get flask regardless of item choices, the item is simply way too good to avoid if you use mana at all, earlier the better.
Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya, mrtyor mamrtam gamaya
MooMooMugi
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States10531 Posts
January 09 2013 04:13 GMT
#7005
On January 09 2013 12:53 Navi wrote:
408 had disagreements with the team in terms of playstyle. we parted on amicable terms recently

Already? But its my homeboy Kevin, god bless!
|LoL & SC2 IGN both my username| Just livin' the baylife| Hearthstone ID: MooMooMugi#1544| Dank Memer since 2011
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
January 09 2013 04:13 GMT
#7006
See that makes no sense to me. You value the cost-efficiency/slot-efficiency tradeoff of Flask, but DBlade's is just as good.

The Vamp is good if you're going BT, sure, but you're not going to do that on every AD every game.
Moderator
dae
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada1600 Posts
January 09 2013 04:15 GMT
#7007
On January 09 2013 13:05 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2013 12:58 Zooper31 wrote:
On January 09 2013 12:54 TheYango wrote:
Food for thought: DBlade healing is worth more than a potion by the 5th creep wave even if you only ever lasthit and never autoattacked at any other time. Counting autoattacks at other times, it'll be worth a potion by the 2nd or 3rd wave more realistically.

On January 09 2013 12:53 VayneAuthority wrote:
anywhere I can see a write up on why and when FXO changed players and who these new players are? haven't heard anything about it

IIRC Choo Choo Lin is a sub. I think she subbed for them before.


Taking into account that that you actually are missing hp to take advtange of the 5hp gain though. They still pretty much suck though imo. Just go longsword and upgrade to sceptor and steal more.

Do you somehow go to lane and then play so pussy that you don't lose any HP for the first 3 waves? Do you back so early that 80 flat HP + the HP gain from Doran's doesn't outperform 2 potions? You basically have to be backing before like 5:30 for that to be the case.

The upgrade to vamp isn't inherently cost-effective or anything. Honestly at the point where you get the vamp upgrade, you're doing like 80-90 damage anyway, so it's not outperforming DBlade per cost. Mathematically DBlade+Flask is actually going to be superior sustain compared to Vamp Scepter in a large percentage of cases early game, for 100 less gold, while also providing the additional 80 HP of a DBlade and the mana restoration of the Flask.


Main problem with dorans vs longsword 2 is tat if you lose an early trade badly enough, you run the risk of just getting zoned at low health and being unable to get to the wave to lifesteal, while longsword 2 pots has enough sustain to at least top you off so you can be competitive in lane.

Also longsword gets you your bt faster.
Zooper31
Profile Joined May 2009
United States5711 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-09 04:20:19
January 09 2013 04:17 GMT
#7008
On January 09 2013 13:13 TheYango wrote:
See that makes no sense to me. You value the cost-efficiency/slot-efficiency tradeoff of Flask, but DBlade's is just as good.

The Vamp is good if you're going BT, sure, but you're not going to do that on every AD every game.


What ADC do you play that you don't go BT on... that boggles my mind right there.

Also you lose 285g on Dblade but only 135g on flask, that's pretty big imo.

On January 09 2013 13:15 dae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2013 13:05 TheYango wrote:
On January 09 2013 12:58 Zooper31 wrote:
On January 09 2013 12:54 TheYango wrote:
Food for thought: DBlade healing is worth more than a potion by the 5th creep wave even if you only ever lasthit and never autoattacked at any other time. Counting autoattacks at other times, it'll be worth a potion by the 2nd or 3rd wave more realistically.

On January 09 2013 12:53 VayneAuthority wrote:
anywhere I can see a write up on why and when FXO changed players and who these new players are? haven't heard anything about it

IIRC Choo Choo Lin is a sub. I think she subbed for them before.


Taking into account that that you actually are missing hp to take advtange of the 5hp gain though. They still pretty much suck though imo. Just go longsword and upgrade to sceptor and steal more.

Do you somehow go to lane and then play so pussy that you don't lose any HP for the first 3 waves? Do you back so early that 80 flat HP + the HP gain from Doran's doesn't outperform 2 potions? You basically have to be backing before like 5:30 for that to be the case.

The upgrade to vamp isn't inherently cost-effective or anything. Honestly at the point where you get the vamp upgrade, you're doing like 80-90 damage anyway, so it's not outperforming DBlade per cost. Mathematically DBlade+Flask is actually going to be superior sustain compared to Vamp Scepter in a large percentage of cases early game, for 100 less gold, while also providing the additional 80 HP of a DBlade and the mana restoration of the Flask.


Main problem with dorans vs longsword 2 is tat if you lose an early trade badly enough, you run the risk of just getting zoned at low health and being unable to get to the wave to lifesteal, while longsword 2 pots has enough sustain to at least top you off so you can be competitive in lane.


You can't make that arguement because no one starts dblade and if you lose trade badly enough with a longsword rule still applies, but by that point both carries will have pots.
Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya, mrtyor mamrtam gamaya
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
January 09 2013 04:18 GMT
#7009
On January 09 2013 13:15 dae wrote:
Main problem with dorans vs longsword 2 is tat if you lose an early trade badly enough, you run the risk of just getting zoned at low health and being unable to get to the wave to lifesteal, while longsword 2 pots has enough sustain to at least top you off so you can be competitive in lane.

Also longsword gets you your bt faster.

Doran's gives you 80 more HP to start with though. Doran's is better for that too because of that immediate buffer.
Moderator
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
January 09 2013 04:19 GMT
#7010
On January 09 2013 13:03 Zooper31 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2013 12:59 arb wrote:
On January 09 2013 12:58 Zooper31 wrote:
On January 09 2013 12:54 TheYango wrote:
Food for thought: DBlade healing is worth more than a potion by the 5th creep wave even if you only ever lasthit and never autoattacked at any other time. Counting autoattacks at other times, it'll be worth a potion by the 2nd or 3rd wave more realistically.

On January 09 2013 12:53 VayneAuthority wrote:
anywhere I can see a write up on why and when FXO changed players and who these new players are? haven't heard anything about it

IIRC Choo Choo Lin is a sub. I think she subbed for them before.


Taking into account that that you actually are missing hp to take advtange of the 5hp gain though. They still pretty much suck though imo. Just go longsword and upgrade to sceptor and steal more.

They're better than dblades last season up to a point, 1dblade + vamp is a good core imo.


I suppose very early they are better, give you that. I just really dislike all the dorans items in general on everyone, prefer to use that money to complete items and not waste anything.

they give youa flat 5 healing on auto attack, the old ones gave 3% lifesteal(so roughly 3 health per 100 damage) so up to say 150ish or something, the new dblades will always heal more, and once you get to the point(bf items completed etc) where the old dorans will outclass them it really wont matter that much anyways
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
MattBarry
Profile Joined March 2011
United States4006 Posts
January 09 2013 04:20 GMT
#7011
Just went against a Sion/Taric top lane. How on earth do I beat that
Platinum Support GOD
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
January 09 2013 04:21 GMT
#7012
On January 09 2013 13:17 Zooper31 wrote:
What ADC do you play that you don't go BT on... that boggles my mind right there.

You mean to say you go BT first on every AD? No Triforce-first (well I guess not, seeing as we had that discussion about Ezreal) or IE-first?

Of course you get a BT eventually, but it's simply not sensible to choose an item that's immediately less effective because of an item choice you're going to make 30 minutes from now.

On January 09 2013 13:17 Zooper31 wrote:
Also you lose 285g on Dblade but only 135g on flask, that's pretty big imo.

It's the same percentage, even though it's a different flat amount of gold.
Moderator
Zooper31
Profile Joined May 2009
United States5711 Posts
January 09 2013 04:21 GMT
#7013
On January 09 2013 13:19 arb wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2013 13:03 Zooper31 wrote:
On January 09 2013 12:59 arb wrote:
On January 09 2013 12:58 Zooper31 wrote:
On January 09 2013 12:54 TheYango wrote:
Food for thought: DBlade healing is worth more than a potion by the 5th creep wave even if you only ever lasthit and never autoattacked at any other time. Counting autoattacks at other times, it'll be worth a potion by the 2nd or 3rd wave more realistically.

On January 09 2013 12:53 VayneAuthority wrote:
anywhere I can see a write up on why and when FXO changed players and who these new players are? haven't heard anything about it

IIRC Choo Choo Lin is a sub. I think she subbed for them before.


Taking into account that that you actually are missing hp to take advtange of the 5hp gain though. They still pretty much suck though imo. Just go longsword and upgrade to sceptor and steal more.

They're better than dblades last season up to a point, 1dblade + vamp is a good core imo.


I suppose very early they are better, give you that. I just really dislike all the dorans items in general on everyone, prefer to use that money to complete items and not waste anything.

they give youa flat 5 healing on auto attack, the old ones gave 3% lifesteal(so roughly 3 health per 100 damage) so up to say 150ish or something, the new dblades will always heal more, and once you get to the point(bf items completed etc) where the old dorans will outclass them it really wont matter that much anyways


I know what the stats are I just still don't like them and prefer to use my money in more meaningful ways (imo).
Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya, mrtyor mamrtam gamaya
MattBarry
Profile Joined March 2011
United States4006 Posts
January 09 2013 04:23 GMT
#7014
I've seen Nyjacky go Fiendish Codex on champs that traditionally got double d-rings. 50 more gold for the same AP, 160 less health, a little less mana regen, but nice juicy CDR
Platinum Support GOD
Zooper31
Profile Joined May 2009
United States5711 Posts
January 09 2013 04:23 GMT
#7015
On January 09 2013 13:21 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2013 13:17 Zooper31 wrote:
What ADC do you play that you don't go BT on... that boggles my mind right there.

You mean to say you go BT first on every AD? No Triforce-first (well I guess not, seeing as we had that discussion about Ezreal) or IE-first?

Of course you get a BT eventually, but it's simply not sensible to choose an item that's immediately less effective because of an item choice you're going to make 30 minutes from now.

Show nested quote +
On January 09 2013 13:17 Zooper31 wrote:
Also you lose 285g on Dblade but only 135g on flask, that's pretty big imo.

It's the same percentage, even though it's a different flat amount of gold.


Sceptor is always a must. completing BT first is not always. Depends how the game goes.

Didn't realize % was the same, still hold my point though.
Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya, mrtyor mamrtam gamaya
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-09 04:24:33
January 09 2013 04:24 GMT
#7016
On January 09 2013 13:17 Zooper31 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2013 13:13 TheYango wrote:
See that makes no sense to me. You value the cost-efficiency/slot-efficiency tradeoff of Flask, but DBlade's is just as good.

The Vamp is good if you're going BT, sure, but you're not going to do that on every AD every game.


What ADC do you play that you don't go BT on... that boggles my mind right there.

Also you lose 285g on Dblade but only 135g on flask, that's pretty big imo.

I think the only AD on whom I regularly go BT is Sivir, and if I'm getting ahead but not early enough that I can quad-shot stuff with BT and my combo then I'll just get IE so that I can ride my advantage harder.
Maybe Draven too... assuming I start picking him "seriously" again.

On January 09 2013 13:20 MattBarry wrote:
Just went against a Sion/Taric top lane. How on earth do I beat that

Cait or an AP that can start one-shotting the wave early and efficiently I guess.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Goldfish
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
2230 Posts
January 09 2013 04:25 GMT
#7017
I was thinking about Dynasty Warriors or something one day, then thinking about the speeches when a general died or something, then I thought about WC3's famous "Our Champion Has Fallen" which was in Dota before it Icefrog removed it (mainly because it overlapped with the Unreal Tournament sounds sometimes + people were annoyed of hearing it every time an ally hero died or something).

And hence this post - Lots of people hate on calling Heroes in Dota champions but they're called champions in Dota too!

I couldn't find any videos of old Dota versions (with the default WC3 announcers still intact) and I couldn't find many WC3 FPVOD videos (at least for NE), so this one will have to do (the volume is low but you can clearly hear it, and anyone can just bust out WC3 and hear it anyway):
"Our Champion (not hero but "champion") has fallen"
+ Show Spoiler +



Yes, heroes in WC3 (and to an extent, Dota since Dota is based on WC3 plus used the same announcers until Icefrog removed them) were sometimes called Champions.

Take note it only existed for the Sentinel/Night Elf side (well, maybe for human too, I forgot). In the Orc and Undead side, it actually says "Our hero has fallen" instead of champion.

I see a lot of LoL bashing in general. And when people move over from LoL to Dota, one of the more common mistakes that people do is call heroes champions in LoL.

In a way, it's not incorrect because the NE / Sentinel announcer calls the heroes champions too (well, not in the context of a "term" but more as a general thing but it's close enough >.>).

Not really sure if people care that much about LoL vs Dota (seems really tamed here compared to the Dota section) but since LoL seems to have a decent following here too, just wanted to post this thing people may find interesting. You can say "hah, in WC3 and Dota (before they removed the default announcers), they're called champions too sometimes!
_____________________________
I actually never (and still) haven't played LoL but I have played Dota since the old days.

Hipster time (though not too Hip, Eul's version of Dota was really bare bones AoS and I preferred other customs compared to it that the time) - I played Dota back in the 5.xx versions (5.4ish and beyond).
My experience with old Dota (for proof guys!):
+ Show Spoiler +

I remember when instead of buying recipes, you had to use "Upgraders" for everything (upgraders cost 1.5k gold I think and were used for mostly the high end items, other items didn't require upgraders like the old soul ring which was regen + sobi + circuit).

Also, there was no denying and Guinsoo actually implemented a really weird way to prevent team attacking. Instead of doing a trigger that forced a stop command when you attacked an ally (which is simple in WC3, the event "Unit is attacked" activates when a unit "begins the attack animation" and not when it actually finishes it attack, this is why things like Centuar's return damage and stuff works in the beginning of the animation in Dota), Guinsoo did this complicated "Create a dummy unit, make dummy unit cast polymorph on attacking hero".

The result of that long text block - Attempting to attack your allies turned you to sheep for a few seconds.


Also I remember when Guinsoo put Atma weapon. It has the icon of Divine Rapier and it had a particle effect too on heroes. It was hidden on the map.

My favorite thing to do was go on Scourge (I found out about the weapon when it was on the Scourge side) and pick it up at level 1.

Favorite thing to do is scare new players and show off my uber 1337 item that makes my hero's weapon glow green.

Speaking of that, before 5.5 (5.3 I think), Dota has really OP items. I mean, Battlefury was (I think, I forgot) was the combination of Buriza and other items (or maybe it was Buriza).

I remember the stats were so OP and were the equivalent to 3 level 3/4 (In 5.xx series, there were 3 tiers of items, things like Buriza was tier 3 and something like Treads was tier 1, in 6.0x, Icefrog expanded it to 4 levels and moved most of the level 3 items to tier 4, finally when the specialty shops appeared, Icefrog removed the whole "item tiers based on level concept"). I don't remember exactly but I think Battlefury had like 50% attack speed, cleave, evasion, huge attack gain, life + mana regen, and some other crazy stuff. Yep, the end game items were OP. 5.4 and beyond toned down the items.

Anyway, fast forward to the Icefrog era.

I forgot when certain heroes appeared (Sand King for example, was he introduced in Guinsoo's era or Icefrog? I remember 5.8x, there were regularly new heroes).

Sand King when he was first introduced, had burrowstrike, burrow (SK would burrow, then he could unburrow to deal AoE damage and stun), Sand Trail (it was a passive AoE slow and evasion to nearby enemies) and epicenter (which was the same as it is).

Some new heroes were OP (Spirit Breaker for example was OP when he first came out). Some of them had weird stuff too (When Axe came out, it was found out you can take out Roshan at level 1 by luring him, with the help of Berserker's Call, to the Fountain).

Some of the new heroes were plain bad. Huskar (I think after people complained about new heroes like SB, Spectre, etc being OP, Icefrog decided to tone down the new heroes a bit) were just plain bad.

I remember when Burning Spears had a stack cap but yet still did really low damage. I remember going on the dota-allstars (before it split to playdota) forums and complaining. Good times.

I stopped playing Dota around the time Nightcrawler (or is it Night Crawler) was released (I never played NC in pubs, that's why I remembered). Around that time, I just played with AI only because I was tired of pubs (I did try joining clans but most of them were *inactive, I tried the clans advertised on the dota forums).

*Clans have fallen off in general since BW/WC3 days. I remember joining clans all the time in SC1 and even C.S. Back then my favorite thing to do in SC1 was to bust out a channel bot. My favorite thing to do was set up text responses (try to make the bots as human as possible.... hey it was cool sitting in channels doing nothing back then).


Those are just some my random, wall of text, not really unimportant tidbits and from my Dota experience (to prove I was there guys!).


__________________

I actually want to write sort of a blog actually (ok, yes the above was blog length worthy but it was in spoiler tags >.>).

Why am I posting it here? It seems safe here. TBH though, seems the rest of the TL has been very LoL bashy. Not sure if any of you here are (despite this being the LoL section) LoL bashy too (I mean, we all know how TL as a whole likes to bash SC2... me included. BW ftw. Bring back the Reaver!).
https://connect.microsoft.com/WindowsServerFeedback/feedback/details/741495/biggest-explorer-annoyance-automatic-sorting-windows-7-server-2008-r2-and-vista#details Allow Disable Auto Arrange in Windows 7+
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-09 04:26:19
January 09 2013 04:25 GMT
#7018
Honestly speaking, given the effectiveness of Warmog's HP regen, it's quite possible that you could get away with not having Lifesteal and using Warmog's regen as your lategame sustain source, and using Flask+DBlade for early regen.
Moderator
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9776 Posts
January 09 2013 04:26 GMT
#7019
Calling heroes champions were just carryover from wc3.

But seriously who cares >.>
boomer hands
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-09 04:35:42
January 09 2013 04:26 GMT
#7020
With doran blade you get 80 hp and 5 hp per attack for 75g. Up to you to decide if that's worth it.


On January 09 2013 13:25 TheYango wrote:
Honestly speaking, given the effectiveness of Warmog's HP regen, it's quite possible that you could get away with not having Lifesteal and using Warmog's regen as your lategame sustain source, and using Flask+DBlade for early regen.

Warmogs hp regen still kind of sucks. Even for just lane sustain it's mediocre at best, and has just about no effective in-fight sustain. At 3000 hp it's still merely 45 hp5. It's not that cost-effective either. I guess nothing better's available, though. Kind of depressing, as healing 30 hp per second was pretty good but you still couldn't properly sustain even with that in most fights unless you were significantly ahead.
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