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On July 24 2012 06:10 wei2coolman wrote:
You guys are far too obsessed about aura's and active auras on support. What about something that is extremely slot ineffecient but offers something a support would want, since slot efficiency isn't' important on supports. Like a 1500~ gold item, that polymorphs enemy champion for .5 seconds, or something like that, but offers weak stats, like 100 hp + 5% cdr +10mp5 or something like that.
items that ad carries/ ap carries/bruisers can't afford to get, due to slot issues, but are very strong.
Back when HoG still had Armor on it, people were buying 5 of them. Slot inefficient items? Don't care. HoG was efficient through stats and gold/10, other items would be efficient through even more stats and the pressure they allow you to apply. If it's very efficient, it's worth stacking it to build an advantage.
Heck, you could even see stuff like 4 DBlades back when those were stronger and it paid off.
Riot won't add itemizable hard CC effects. The only CC that is allowed on items is slow.
Why do we want auras? Because they're strongest in teamfights but weak in lane. Why do we want teamfights? Because they're more exciting than laning. Basically there should be laning items and (early/midgame) teamfight items. That way you can make a team wide item strategy: Everyone sticks to laning items and tries to build a gold advantage that way, or everyone focuses on teamfights, you force fights around objectives, and get ahead through winning these fights.
On July 24 2012 06:13 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 06:04 spinesheath wrote:
The lifesteal on Emblem of Valor should be an aura (maybe just part).
quick note, emblem no longer provides lifesteal. Components were changed to anal beads + cloth armor and gives a HP regen aura. edit: which actually makes it a decent support item. The hp regen feels a tad underwhelming tho
Oh right, I forgot. Well yeah, buff the regen then, has about the same effect.
On July 24 2012 06:19 BlackPaladin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 06:13 barbsq wrote:On July 24 2012 06:04 spinesheath wrote:
The lifesteal on Emblem of Valor should be an aura (maybe just part).
quick note, emblem no longer provides lifesteal. Components were changed to anal beads + cloth armor and gives a HP regen aura. edit: which actually makes it a decent support item. The hp regen feels a tad underwhelming tho anal beads......? l0l But yeah, I'd like to see old items like haunting guise revamped. Adding more midgame-centric items that are really cost efficient but not slot efficient isn't bad to me. But Riot seems to keep on just making them build into something instead of actually make them better for a certain time frame.
Guise is good. People have started to pick it up a lot more lately too.
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Aegis is actually pretty good botlane, tho usually the only time you can get it while still laning is when you're quite ahead anyways.
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On July 24 2012 06:44 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 06:10 wei2coolman wrote:
You guys are far too obsessed about aura's and active auras on support. What about something that is extremely slot ineffecient but offers something a support would want, since slot efficiency isn't' important on supports. Like a 1500~ gold item, that polymorphs enemy champion for .5 seconds, or something like that, but offers weak stats, like 100 hp + 5% cdr +10mp5 or something like that.
items that ad carries/ ap carries/bruisers can't afford to get, due to slot issues, but are very strong. Back when HoG still had Armor on it, people were buying 5 of them. Slot inefficient items? Don't care. HoG was efficient through stats and gold/10, other items would be efficient through even more stats and the pressure they allow you to apply. If it's very efficient, it's worth stacking it to build an advantage. Heck, you could even see stuff like 4 DBlades back when those were stronger and it paid off. Riot won't add itemizable hard CC effects. The only CC that is allowed on items is slow.Why do we want auras? Because they're strongest in teamfights but weak in lane. Why do we want teamfights? Because they're more exciting than laning. Basically there should be laning items and (early/midgame) teamfight items. That way you can make a team wide item strategy: Everyone sticks to laning items and tries to build a gold advantage that way, or everyone focuses on teamfights, you force fights around objectives, and get ahead through winning these fights.
Don't mean to keep perpetuating the discussion, but what if there was an item that was a true support Phage: Targeted active - every time the target takes damage for the next ~5 seconds, they are slowed by ~40%. So you put it on a target, every auto from your AD/spell from your mid slows it, leaving you open to use your own slow/CCs on another target.
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On July 24 2012 07:13 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 06:44 spinesheath wrote:On July 24 2012 06:10 wei2coolman wrote:
You guys are far too obsessed about aura's and active auras on support. What about something that is extremely slot ineffecient but offers something a support would want, since slot efficiency isn't' important on supports. Like a 1500~ gold item, that polymorphs enemy champion for .5 seconds, or something like that, but offers weak stats, like 100 hp + 5% cdr +10mp5 or something like that.
items that ad carries/ ap carries/bruisers can't afford to get, due to slot issues, but are very strong. Back when HoG still had Armor on it, people were buying 5 of them. Slot inefficient items? Don't care. HoG was efficient through stats and gold/10, other items would be efficient through even more stats and the pressure they allow you to apply. If it's very efficient, it's worth stacking it to build an advantage. Heck, you could even see stuff like 4 DBlades back when those were stronger and it paid off. Riot won't add itemizable hard CC effects. The only CC that is allowed on items is slow.Why do we want auras? Because they're strongest in teamfights but weak in lane. Why do we want teamfights? Because they're more exciting than laning. Basically there should be laning items and (early/midgame) teamfight items. That way you can make a team wide item strategy: Everyone sticks to laning items and tries to build a gold advantage that way, or everyone focuses on teamfights, you force fights around objectives, and get ahead through winning these fights. Don't mean to keep perpetuating the discussion, but what if there was an item that was a true support Phage: Targeted active - every time the target takes damage for the next ~5 seconds, they are slowed by ~40%. So you put it on a target, every auto from your AD/spell from your mid slows it, leaving you open to use your own slow/CCs on another target.
Taking away ashes only good thing in lane, you'd make her even sadder.
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On July 24 2012 07:17 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 07:13 Requizen wrote:On July 24 2012 06:44 spinesheath wrote:On July 24 2012 06:10 wei2coolman wrote:
You guys are far too obsessed about aura's and active auras on support. What about something that is extremely slot ineffecient but offers something a support would want, since slot efficiency isn't' important on supports. Like a 1500~ gold item, that polymorphs enemy champion for .5 seconds, or something like that, but offers weak stats, like 100 hp + 5% cdr +10mp5 or something like that.
items that ad carries/ ap carries/bruisers can't afford to get, due to slot issues, but are very strong. Back when HoG still had Armor on it, people were buying 5 of them. Slot inefficient items? Don't care. HoG was efficient through stats and gold/10, other items would be efficient through even more stats and the pressure they allow you to apply. If it's very efficient, it's worth stacking it to build an advantage. Heck, you could even see stuff like 4 DBlades back when those were stronger and it paid off. Riot won't add itemizable hard CC effects. The only CC that is allowed on items is slow.Why do we want auras? Because they're strongest in teamfights but weak in lane. Why do we want teamfights? Because they're more exciting than laning. Basically there should be laning items and (early/midgame) teamfight items. That way you can make a team wide item strategy: Everyone sticks to laning items and tries to build a gold advantage that way, or everyone focuses on teamfights, you force fights around objectives, and get ahead through winning these fights. Don't mean to keep perpetuating the discussion, but what if there was an item that was a true support Phage: Targeted active - every time the target takes damage for the next ~5 seconds, they are slowed by ~40%. So you put it on a target, every auto from your AD/spell from your mid slows it, leaving you open to use your own slow/CCs on another target. Taking away ashes only good thing in lane, you'd make her even sadder.
Psh, I hate that bitch anyway 
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On July 24 2012 07:17 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 07:13 Requizen wrote:On July 24 2012 06:44 spinesheath wrote:On July 24 2012 06:10 wei2coolman wrote:
You guys are far too obsessed about aura's and active auras on support. What about something that is extremely slot ineffecient but offers something a support would want, since slot efficiency isn't' important on supports. Like a 1500~ gold item, that polymorphs enemy champion for .5 seconds, or something like that, but offers weak stats, like 100 hp + 5% cdr +10mp5 or something like that.
items that ad carries/ ap carries/bruisers can't afford to get, due to slot issues, but are very strong. Back when HoG still had Armor on it, people were buying 5 of them. Slot inefficient items? Don't care. HoG was efficient through stats and gold/10, other items would be efficient through even more stats and the pressure they allow you to apply. If it's very efficient, it's worth stacking it to build an advantage. Heck, you could even see stuff like 4 DBlades back when those were stronger and it paid off. Riot won't add itemizable hard CC effects. The only CC that is allowed on items is slow.Why do we want auras? Because they're strongest in teamfights but weak in lane. Why do we want teamfights? Because they're more exciting than laning. Basically there should be laning items and (early/midgame) teamfight items. That way you can make a team wide item strategy: Everyone sticks to laning items and tries to build a gold advantage that way, or everyone focuses on teamfights, you force fights around objectives, and get ahead through winning these fights. Don't mean to keep perpetuating the discussion, but what if there was an item that was a true support Phage: Targeted active - every time the target takes damage for the next ~5 seconds, they are slowed by ~40%. So you put it on a target, every auto from your AD/spell from your mid slows it, leaving you open to use your own slow/CCs on another target. Taking away ashes only good thing in lane, you'd make her even sadder.
Obviously it doesn't have to be that extreme, it could be something as modest as 15-35% ms reduction, for 1-5 seconds, scaling with levels, on a 60sec cooldown.
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I'm gonna try some lane bilgewater soon. The 150 damage nuke on a 60s cooldown with a 50% 2 second slow is pretty big in my opinion. With kayle it prevents people from sticking to you after they jump you, allowing you to slow them when they retreat with your Q, and to retaliate thereafter.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 24 2012 06:04 MooMooMugi wrote:
Id say Hexdrinker is pretty cost efficient
It's cost-efficient for an item costed around having something to build into.
Riot's de-facto solution to dead-end items that aren't cost-efficient enough is to just make them build into things. When in practice, you could get a lot more gameplay diversity out of having dead-end items that are extremely cost-efficient. Enough that a team that is behind can commit to midgame items and potentially have a timing point at which to turn around the game. This does not mean "Brutalizer is kinda, sorta better than BF Sword some of the time".
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finally took a few days break to stop the hemorrhage, i'm awful at solo queue and i'm pretty sure it's preventing me from improving. Time to recover elo for the 12039th time, gonna stop for the season if i ever get back near my high.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 24 2012 06:09 Requizen wrote:
Phage, Hexdrinker, Glacial Shroud, Catalyst, and Hextech Revolver are all in that price range and pretty good items. I couldn't tell you about cost efficiency, but what more would you want?
The cost-effectiveness on these items is modest. They're ahead of baseline cost-effectiveness for components, but they still don't outdo endgame core items like IE and DCap.
The relevant items in DotA that wei2coolman is referring are worth more than twice their gold value insofar as they compare to component items. They're not just slightly ahead of the curve like most LoL midgame items. They're so far ahead of the curve as to have the potential to allow a team that's behind to commit to them and potentially stage a comeback by leveraging the teamfighting strength of these powerful midgame items.
Of course, 1500-2k gold items aren't really equivalent to super cost-effective items in DotA like Janggo. Item gold value caps out around 5-6 gold in DotA, compared to 3-4k gold in LoL, which means the price point for such items in LoL should be more like 800 gold to 1k.
On July 24 2012 06:44 spinesheath wrote:
Riot won't add itemizable hard CC effects. The only CC that is allowed on items is slow.
While the hard CC actives are the most well-known from DotA, there are a lot of possibilities that are definitely applicable as support items in LoL that are not CC actives. Urn of Shadows and Medallion of Courage were both massively successful additions to DotA when the game had a similar problem with support itemization, and the concepts from both items are very easily applicable to LoL.
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Back in gold, thank you new xin
(also goodbye alistar, you are now permabanned  )
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I looked at our team's damage out of curiosity (turns out even with wriggles Tiger Udyr deals more physical than magical damage, I didn't expect it) and noticed that Nunu was ahead despite me not last hitting much (Jax got destroyed so I pretty much pushed non-stop). I looked at it and in a 31 minutes game, jungle AP Nunu did ~140k damage, 32k physical, 43k magical, meaning 65k true damage between consume and smite. Made me chuckle.
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On July 24 2012 06:04 MooMooMugi wrote:
Id say Hexdrinker is pretty cost efficient
Too bad hexdriunker is pretty troll on most supports because melle is really not an option once you can afford it (as you are like 2 lvls and 2k gold behind everyone).
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Did Riot explicitly position themselves against harder CC on items actives? Because I feel like more varied actives and uniques on items is what we really need to increase item diversity.
With items that are too simple, it's just too easy to figure out that that, objectively, IE+PD beats every alternative in terms of damage output for AD carries. What makes the rare deviations (trinity Rush, BT Rush, phage -> IE -> trinity) viable is that they give utility, which have the potential to be better situationally.
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When did I ever say Hexdrinker was good on supports? LOL
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played a liquidpractice game today and got a weird glitch where the scorescreen that popped up was for another game. i think it might have been b/c the game name was tlnet2, and that i got the scorescreen for the previous game with the same name.
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On July 24 2012 08:37 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 06:04 MooMooMugi wrote:
Id say Hexdrinker is pretty cost efficient Too bad hexdriunker is pretty troll on most supports because melle is really not an option once you can afford it (as you are like 2 lvls and 2k gold behind everyone).
what does that have to do with the price of tea in china
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That one was really good, wp sir, wp.
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On July 23 2012 22:08 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 21:36 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Froggen about to play heimerdinger in a scrim. Let's see if he can make any champ look op. Not the slightest XD He played well but... It's Heimerdonger :p
It's Heimerdunker, just to be clear
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United States37500 Posts
Anyone else watching oRb vs Crs? Pretty gud game so far.
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EPT
