|
On April 25 2012 06:59 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 06:36 cLutZ wrote:
I hope that they make some jungle changes that make it more spell-friendly. Or modify some spellcasters to be improved junglers.
The jungle meta needs to be shaken up. Least interesting part of the pro scene right now IMO. They'd have to drastically increase the mana returns from clearing small camps for jungle spellcasters to become a reality. As it stands it's next to impossible for most spellcasters to clear without blue. On top of that spellcasters tend to like levels more than anything else, but jungling is only slightly better off than a duo lane in terms of leveling unless you pull off some very successful ganks or get to hold lanes a lot. That said, there are tons of viable junglers right now (in general), more than there were before the jungle remake. The jungle doesn't need to be changed for them to be played, player mindsets need to change.
Not too mention if they buff the mana return from camps, you see how big of a buff that would be to a mid laners who can shove the lane, and get some wraiths every other wave.
|
Barely an issue, if at all. Mids already stack doran rings and usually get constant blues. The mids who can steal wraiths already will continue to do so and the ones who can't won't. It's a matter of how quickly you can kill it and how much damage you'll take in the process.
|
On April 25 2012 07:13 Craton wrote:
Barely an issue, if at all. Mids already stack doran rings and usually get constant blues. The mids who can steal wraiths already will continue to do so and the ones who can't won't. It's a matter of how quickly you can kill it and how much damage you'll take in the process.
If you can't take wraiths in a timely fashion (ie 1 or 2 spells) and take minimal damage, then you really shouldn't bother with wraiths. I think Craton is right here - those who can do it now will continue to do so, those who can't might, but it still wouldn't be enough to swing the balance of anything in either direction.
|
Pretty much everything lancer said, is correcto-mundo.
|
Just wondering, how is everyone building Hecarim? I've been debating over double gp10 (philo+hog/avarice, with hog for bulk or avarice because it builds into youmuu) and wriggles. He feels more like a skill based jungler over autoattacking, but he feels mich less sturdy without it. Also, ive been going bruta->hexdrinker->sheen and then finishing up whatever I need. What else is good on him?
Also ive been leveling w over e, which move is better?
|
On April 25 2012 07:13 Craton wrote:
Barely an issue, if at all. Mids already stack doran rings and usually get constant blues. The mids who can steal wraiths already will continue to do so and the ones who can't won't. It's a matter of how quickly you can kill it and how much damage you'll take in the process.
Right, but it could make doran's openings not needed, and something like kage's pick to wota to dfg way too strong.
|
Holy...
Last game, I picked Mundo on a whim, we had J4 top vs Irelia, I gave him fb at level 2 (we were purple side and I ran exhaust), Viktor vs Ryze mid (Viktor can one-shot the creep wave with a single spell, Ryze can't), and the enemy jungler was Lee Sin.
The only two blue buffs that they got were the two that they stole us (both times we went bot and Lee had to help immediatly after, dying to Viktor so no biggy).
The feeling of pressure when you've got strong lanes on your side and you're free to roam about and run into the enemy jungle, warding and timing their buffs is so huge compared to a "regular" game. ôo The enemy team couldn't do much, and I felt like I was about everywhere at once.
|
On April 25 2012 06:59 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 06:36 cLutZ wrote:
I hope that they make some jungle changes that make it more spell-friendly. Or modify some spellcasters to be improved junglers.
The jungle meta needs to be shaken up. Least interesting part of the pro scene right now IMO. They'd have to drastically increase the mana returns from clearing small camps for jungle spellcasters to become a reality. As it stands it's next to impossible for most spellcasters to clear without blue. On top of that spellcasters tend to like levels more than anything else, but jungling is only slightly better off than a duo lane in terms of leveling unless you pull off some very successful ganks or get to hold lanes a lot. That said, there are tons of viable junglers right now (in general), more than there were before the jungle remake. The jungle doesn't need to be changed for them to be played, player mindsets need to change.
Oh god. The phrase "player mindsets need to change" and related phrases are the deathknell of intelligent discussion. Also, those sentiments are rarely correct. People are surprisingly good at finding what is good. Particularly pros.
|
On April 25 2012 07:14 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 07:13 Craton wrote:
Barely an issue, if at all. Mids already stack doran rings and usually get constant blues. The mids who can steal wraiths already will continue to do so and the ones who can't won't. It's a matter of how quickly you can kill it and how much damage you'll take in the process. If you can't take wraiths in a timely fashion (ie 1 or 2 spells) and take minimal damage, then you really shouldn't bother with wraiths. I think Craton is right here - those who can do it now will continue to do so, those who can't might, but it still wouldn't be enough to swing the balance of anything in either direction.
The real balance swing would be with established junglers. A large buff to the mana returns from small camps would dramatically change how frequently existing junglers could use their abilities. Junglers like Amumu, Skarner, and Olaf would immediately become much stronger.
That said I doubt we'll see the mana return change. It's obvious from the current implementation (a mere 15 mana) that Riot was only interested in giving current junglers just enough mana to get by. Unless Riot dramatically changes blue buff, they don't have much incentive to massively increase the mana returns on small camps.
On April 25 2012 07:30 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 06:59 Seuss wrote:On April 25 2012 06:36 cLutZ wrote:
I hope that they make some jungle changes that make it more spell-friendly. Or modify some spellcasters to be improved junglers.
The jungle meta needs to be shaken up. Least interesting part of the pro scene right now IMO. They'd have to drastically increase the mana returns from clearing small camps for jungle spellcasters to become a reality. As it stands it's next to impossible for most spellcasters to clear without blue. On top of that spellcasters tend to like levels more than anything else, but jungling is only slightly better off than a duo lane in terms of leveling unless you pull off some very successful ganks or get to hold lanes a lot. That said, there are tons of viable junglers right now (in general), more than there were before the jungle remake. The jungle doesn't need to be changed for them to be played, player mindsets need to change. Oh god. The phrase "player mindsets need to change" and related phrases are the deathknell of intelligent discussion. Also, those sentiments are rarely correct. People are surprisingly good at finding what is good. Particularly pros.
There have actually been a number of AMAs on reddit where pro players (e.g. Doublelift) have noted that they and other pro players mostly stick to what they know and don't adapt to new champions/ideas until someone else demonstrates their strength.
As I said before, there are more competitive jungle picks now than there were before the remake. That they aren't used commonly in pro matches has less to do with Riot's balance and more to do with player preferences.
|
Atlanta Swain vs Scarra Soraka on Dyrus' stream. I wish I could see it from Scarra's view. Atlanta had to reconnect to fix not being able to see life bars, but supposedly AD Swain is giving Scarra trouble lol. It would be funny if that was a legitmate counter or if Atlanta just doesn't have good AP runes.
Speaking of which I'm considering running AD reds on my ranged AP champs just to last hit better lol. It would help in auto attack trades too. Most AP mids don't run armor yellows anyways.
Nvm Soraka mid has no counters.
|
On April 25 2012 07:08 Lancer723 wrote:
General Discussion seems to be made up of mostly established posters, so it would probably be ok to discourage certain topics. It's worth noting, however, that when one of those beat-to-death subjects comes up, it's usually someone fairly new to the subforum that brings it up initially, since they were never around for the original discussion or any of the subsequent ones. For new posters, it may be the first time they have ever thought about that issue and wish for some discussion on it. There is nothing wrong with that and in fact that sort discussion should be encouraged by more veteran members as a way to help less experienced players.
That said, it is completely legitimate to say that some of these older discussions do not belong in this topic since most of the regular posters have already seen those discussion ad nauseum. Ideally you would want newer players to have their own thread for these questions and discussions and have veteran posters chime in, but there are 2 inherent problems with even that.
First, newer players/posters are very likely to be unfamiliar with the "new players" thread and may not find the correct thread. This is exacerbated by the fact that the thread with BY FAR the most views and posts is general discussion, which is always at the top of the subforum. So if new posters have a question and haven't lurked long enough to know the social dynamics of this subforum, then they will mistakenly post in GD anyway out of ignorance. Also the fact that this thread is called "General Discussion" and yet has topics that are banned from discussion will likely lead to further confusion. (See, the many posts directing people to the QQ thread)
Second, Since these kinds of discussions come along fairly infrequently, it would stand to reason that the "New Player" thread would fall fairly quickly without regular posting that GD has, further making it harder to find and less intuitive for new players. You could Sticky it, but that has it's own issues as well.
Furthermore, how likely are most of the veterans of this forum to post regularly helping new players with this? I'm actually not being insulting or facetious, just legitimately curious on whether or not the relevant posters would be willing to stay on top of that thread, even if it means repeating the same information, something that people in this very line of discussion have expressed disdain to.
most of the real established posters are dead
RIP established posters
|
On April 25 2012 08:03 BlackMagister wrote:
Atlanta Swain vs Scarra Soraka on Dyrus' stream. I wish I could see it from Scarra's view. Atlanta had to reconnect to fix not being able to see life bars, but supposedly AD Swain is giving Scarra trouble lol. It would be funny if that was a legitmate counter or if Atlanta just doesn't have good AP runes.
Speaking of which I'm considering running AD reds on my ranged AP champs just to last hit better lol. It would help in auto attack trades too. Most AP mids don't run armor yellows anyways.
Nvm Soraka mid has no counters.
I bet MF mid would dump on soraka mid.
But no one cares about ad mids. 
|
IMO caster jungles isn't actually the issue, maokai and nautilus are pretty much pure casters, and they are also best in the jungle.
It's just that you want your damage dealers to get the farm/levels they need to blow people up. 'Caster' tanks/cc bots are rare, which is why caster jungles are rare. The only pure caster/tank/cc are maokai/naut, and well, that's why they are junglers.
|
On April 25 2012 08:23 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 08:03 BlackMagister wrote:
Atlanta Swain vs Scarra Soraka on Dyrus' stream. I wish I could see it from Scarra's view. Atlanta had to reconnect to fix not being able to see life bars, but supposedly AD Swain is giving Scarra trouble lol. It would be funny if that was a legitmate counter or if Atlanta just doesn't have good AP runes.
Speaking of which I'm considering running AD reds on my ranged AP champs just to last hit better lol. It would help in auto attack trades too. Most AP mids don't run armor yellows anyways.
Nvm Soraka mid has no counters. I bet MF mid would dump on soraka mid. But no one cares about ad mids.
The thing is that Scarra says he doesn't even level up heal against healing debuff champions and just steamroll them with Q E bullshit. I don't know about MF specifically because she also has amazing early-game sustained damage though.
|
On April 25 2012 08:28 Kaneh wrote:
IMO caster jungles isn't actually the issue, maokai and nautilus are pretty much pure casters, and they are also best in the jungle.
It's just that you want your damage dealers to get the farm/levels they need to blow people up. 'Caster' tanks/cc bots are rare, which is why caster jungles are rare. The only pure caster/tank/cc are maokai/naut, and well, that's why they are junglers.
Somewhere, Amumu is crying.
|
So? Amumu is always crying.
|
On April 25 2012 08:32 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 08:28 Kaneh wrote:
IMO caster jungles isn't actually the issue, maokai and nautilus are pretty much pure casters, and they are also best in the jungle.
It's just that you want your damage dealers to get the farm/levels they need to blow people up. 'Caster' tanks/cc bots are rare, which is why caster jungles are rare. The only pure caster/tank/cc are maokai/naut, and well, that's why they are junglers. Somewhere, Amumu is crying.
Also more or less Sejuani and Malphite. And Shen, somewhat.
Also Galio and Cho'Gath. And Alistar. Rumble, somewhat, as well. Skarner and Volibear too.
So on consideration there are a decent number of 'caster-tank-cc bots'.
Oh yeah. Leona and Taric probably count too. Maybe Singed.
|
On April 25 2012 07:08 Lancer723 wrote:
General Discussion seems to be made up of mostly established posters, so it would probably be ok to discourage certain topics. It's worth noting, however, that when one of those beat-to-death subjects comes up, it's usually someone fairly new to the subforum that brings it up initially, since they were never around for the original discussion or any of the subsequent ones. For new posters, it may be the first time they have ever thought about that issue and wish for some discussion on it. There is nothing wrong with that and in fact that sort discussion should be encouraged by more veteran members as a way to help less experienced players.
That said, it is completely legitimate to say that some of these older discussions do not belong in this topic since most of the regular posters have already seen those discussion ad nauseum. Ideally you would want newer players to have their own thread for these questions and discussions and have veteran posters chime in, but there are 2 inherent problems with even that.
First, newer players/posters are very likely to be unfamiliar with the "new players" thread and may not find the correct thread. This is exacerbated by the fact that the thread with BY FAR the most views and posts is general discussion, which is always at the top of the subforum. So if new posters have a question and haven't lurked long enough to know the social dynamics of this subforum, then they will mistakenly post in GD anyway out of ignorance. Also the fact that this thread is called "General Discussion" and yet has topics that are banned from discussion will likely lead to further confusion. (See, the many posts directing people to the QQ thread)
Second, Since these kinds of discussions come along fairly infrequently, it would stand to reason that the "New Player" thread would fall fairly quickly without regular posting that GD has, further making it harder to find and less intuitive for new players. You could Sticky it, but that has it's own issues as well.
Furthermore, how likely are most of the veterans of this forum to post regularly helping new players with this? I'm actually not being insulting or facetious, just legitimately curious on whether or not the relevant posters would be willing to stay on top of that thread, even if it means repeating the same information, something that people in this very line of discussion have expressed disdain to.
I guess I should clarify - I agree that this thread wouldn't be a good place for discussion, and what I had in mind (and what I used the old thread for) was a place to (1) find the answers to some basic newbie questions [because the answers were in the OP, not because I posted in the thread asking a question] and (2) find out where I could go to find more information. So because it isn't a place for discussion, it wouldn't make a big difference for the elo hell/gp5 debates - at most, it might include a section explaining what elo hell is and why it's silly to discuss - but it would help more for questions like "what runes should i buy," which already has a fairly helpful guide that people may simply not know about, and "which website has good guides". The lack of discussion also means it would have to be stickied - sure some people don't read stickied threads, but just because a stickied thread with information for people new to the subforum won't reach the entirety of its intended audience doesn't mean it can't still help - it certainly helped me a lot!
The issue of who would write the contents is still an issue (if anyone decides to remake a thread I'd be happy to help btw), but I'm mainly just curious why that thread that I used to use so much is no longer stickied/maintained.
|
On April 25 2012 08:28 Kaneh wrote:
IMO caster jungles isn't actually the issue, maokai and nautilus are pretty much pure casters, and they are also best in the jungle.
It's just that you want your damage dealers to get the farm/levels they need to blow people up. 'Caster' tanks/cc bots are rare, which is why caster jungles are rare. The only pure caster/tank/cc are maokai/naut, and well, that's why they are junglers.
You forget nunu. Don't make the yeti angry, you wouldn't like him when he's angry. I'm actually glad no one plays jungle nunu, I enjoy getting my free elo.
|
By the time I post this Treadmill will have added three more champion to his list.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
